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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire Lady Atia's Avatar
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    It's obvious that her sister would be the Archon - the Winter Queen says that Denathrius is her brother during the end of Ardenweald questing - the vision of the Primus also states that Zooval is their brother. So all of the Eternals are one family.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I agree. They have even called the Eternal Ones the Pantheon of Death. It makes more sense for Eonar to be her "sister".
    Pantheon of Death does not mean they have a necessary connection to the Pantheon of Order which Eonar is apart of. It just means that these are the gods, the highest forms of this group. There could be a Pantheon of Life and Fel, Light and Void aswell.

    Eonar is an Arcane being who reaches into Life, the Winterqueen is a Death being who also reaches over into life, that's their main connection.

  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's obvious that her sister would be the Archon - the Winter Queen says that Denathrius is her brother during the end of Ardenweald questing - the vision of the Primus also states that Zooval is their brother. So all of the Eternals are one family.
    Have yet to see them reference the Archon as a sibling (sibling terms). They always refer to her as the Archon. And i see no connection between Ysera and the Archon. Its known now that Elune brought Ysera directly to Ardenweald.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's obvious that her sister would be the Archon - the Winter Queen says that Denathrius is her brother during the end of Ardenweald questing - the vision of the Primus also states that Zooval is their brother. So all of the Eternals are one family.
    The Archon and the things running around Oribos feel more like they were made tbh. Unless this family thing is more of their status or creation together, like Aman'thul calling Sargeras brother while viewing Eonar as a love interest.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Pantheon of Death does not mean they have a necessary connection to the Pantheon of Order which Eonar is apart of. It just means that these are the gods, the highest forms of this group. There could be a Pantheon of Life and Fel, Light and Void aswell.

    Eonar is an Arcane being who reaches into Life, the Winterqueen is a Death being who also reaches over into life, that's their main connection.
    I know it doesn't necessarily mean they are connected but given they have referenced them as have a Titan level of power and calling them the pantheon of death implies they are the counterparts to the Titans in shadowlands.

  6. #26
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Have yet to see them reference the Archon as a sibling (sibling terms). They always refer to her as the Archon. And i see no connection between Ysera and the Archon. Its known now that Elune brought Ysera directly to Ardenweald.
    Do you mean the Arbiter as opposed to the Archon (of Bastion), aka Kyrestia the Firstborne? The sibling state of the Eternal Ones is kind of up in the air itself, though; as while the Primus refers to Zovaal/The Jailer as "our brother" and Kyrestia refers to Sire Denathrius "our brother," the Winter Queen refers to the Primus as "old friend."
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I agree. They have even called the Eternal Ones the Pantheon of Death. It makes more sense for Eonar to be her "sister".
    The Titan's Pantheon is a Pantheon with a capital P, it's a name of their organisation. The Titans have god-like powers, but do not seem to be the rulers of the universe, they are a part of it.

    The Pantheon of Death is a pantheon with a lower-case p, meaning it's a collection of gods, literal rules of the realm, they are highest in the hierarchy.

    At least that's how I see it.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I know it doesn't necessarily mean they are connected but given they have referenced them as have a Titan level of power and calling them the pantheon of death implies they are the counterparts to the Titans in shadowlands.
    Counterparts, but not connected. To my knowledge, the Pantheon of Death came before the Titans and have no similarities to the celestial titanic human looking beings that are birthed from world souls.

    I can however see that whoever created the Pantheon of Death(if they were created or if they were just natural beings that were brought together) also seeded those worlds with World Souls, but something probably went wrong and the Titans woke up and had to find their own purpose. There's just not enough similarities to connect them besides looking too much into the word "Pantheon".

    I do however think the Titans could be the First Ones who probably seeded worlds with their souls, kinda similar to what goes on in Ardenwield, but lost their memories and that could possibly be why Zovaal is imprisoned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    The Titan's Pantheon is a Pantheon with a capital P, it's a name of their organisation. The Titans have god-like powers, but do not seem to be the rulers of the universe, they are a part of it.

    The Pantheon of Death is a pantheon with a lower-case p, meaning it's a collection of gods, literal rules of the realm, they are highest in the hierarchy.

    At least that's how I see it.
    Exactly, like we'll probably see a pantheon of Light and Void eventually, but has nothing to do with the Titan's "Pantheon"

  9. #29
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    It's clearly Elune.

    Elune is typically identified as "she", and Ysera has always been affiliated with Elune and the Light. The Winter Queen makes a very direct and obvious reference here.

    Also, it's doubtful that the Titans were the First Ones. I have nothing to back that up but it's likely that the Titans have been written out of the story with the conclusion of Sargeras' Burning Crusade and we're seeing the true progenitor entities that were present for the forming of the cosmos (the Light and the Void). Everything in the story up to this point is heading in that direction.

    The Titans have sealed themselves away, in a remote location somewhere across the entire Nether. Their story is finished.
    Last edited by Gilvain; 2020-11-30 at 12:31 AM.

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Do you mean the Arbiter as opposed to the Archon (of Bastion), aka Kyrestia the Firstborne? The sibling state of the Eternal Ones is kind of up in the air itself, though; as while the Primus refers to Zovaal/The Jailer as "our brother" and Kyrestia refers to Sire Denathrius "our brother," the Winter Queen refers to the Primus as "old friend."
    Correct. Definitely seems like the sibling status/state is not so consistent amongst the Eternal ones, but defintely haven't see any of them reference the Arbiter as a sibling. Which is why i don't think the winter queen is referring to the Archon or Kyrestia.

    I also feel like the Arbiter may be quite different than the other Eternals. While the others look more flesh and blood, the Arbiter seems more construct like.

    Also i think someone mentioned this earlier but, the Winter Queen mentioned that they tapped into the Heart of the Forest to aid in imprisoning Zovaal. And she speaks to not only having to balance the anima between pods but also to sustain the anima required to keep Zovaal in his prison. Imo, she expended the most to keep him locked in the Maw. Each of the Eternals did their part, but it seems like because the Heart of the Forest is in Ardenweald, her realm has suffered more than most. This may be a tangent but i think it's worth exploring.
    Last edited by tommyhil622; 2020-11-30 at 11:34 AM.

  11. #31
    Stood in the Fire Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Correct. Definitely seems like the sibling status/state is not so consistent amongst the Eternal ones, but defintely haven't see any of them reference the Archon as a sibling. Which is why i don't think the winter queen is referring to the Archon or Kyrestia.

    I also feel like the Archon may be quite different than the other Eternals. While the others look more flesh and blood, the Archon seems more construct like.

    Also i think someone mentioned this earlier but, the Winter Queen mentioned that they tapped into the Heart of the Forest to aid in imprisoning Zovaal. And she speaks to not only having to balance the anima between pods but also to sustain the anima required to keep Zovaal in his prison. Imo, she expended the most to keep him locked in the Maw. Each of the Eternals did their part, but it seems like because the Heart of the Forest is in Ardenweald, her realm has suffered more than most. This may be a tangent but i think it's worth exploring.
    The Archon is Kyrestia. The construct looking thing is the Arbiter. ^^

  12. #32
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    The Archon is Kyrestia. The construct looking thing is the Arbiter. ^^
    I misspoke, meant to say Arbiter.

    I Updated my post, thanks.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by dragnipur View Post
    In Ardenweald it is said she has a sister.Ysera is empowered by freya when transfored from ordinary proto drake to an aspect.Keeper Freya empowered her and her powers are connected to Eonar.
    Does this means Winter Queen's sister is Eonar?After all life and death are oposits and Eonar is the titan of life.If that is so is it possible the Shadow Lands leaders to be Titans in their past life?Well maybe not all of them but lets say 2 or 3 out of 5?Maybe the Jailer,Winter Queen and the Primus.

    What happens to the titans when they die?Also does death has an impact to their powers?Are they evolving into something more suitable for the realm they rule?Or it is said the Eternal one ordered shadow lands.Does this mean the realms are made in a way to suit the powers of their rulers?
    I was inclined to think Eonar, but that depends on the role of the titans. They consider themselves to be creatures of order, but curiously they spawn from the material world and have all kinds of powers, ranging from arcane to life (Eonar) and fel (Sargeras) and death (Argus).
    Also they are curiously able to die, if only when in a vulnerable state (think of the planet Sargeras cleaved) AND when adult titans die their souls don't go to any plane, perhaps even allowing them to regenerate fully in time.

    So yeah: If the titans are truly creatures of order then it seems like Elune might be the true source of Ysera's power, as she seems quite life-aligned.
    But if the titans mischaracterized themselves and they are the gods of the physical universe, then it seems Eonar, as one directly involved in Ysera's ascension, is the "sister".
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Correct. Definitely seems like the sibling status/state is not so consistent amongst the Eternal ones, but defintely haven't see any of them reference the Arbiter as a sibling. Which is why i don't think the winter queen is referring to the Archon or Kyrestia.
    I think the whole "sibling" thing is more a figure of speech than any actual relationship between them. Winter Queen could possibly mean it in a more literal manner. Since the entirety of Ardenweald is a pretty obvious reference to the Winter Court of Fae, there is likely to be a Summer Court as well, which would probably be Life aligned and lead by her sister. Just being connected to Life would already give her a connection to Ysera, a long-term resident of the Emerald Dream.

    Doesn't mean we have to have encountered her, though. I don't see enough evidence to make any declarative statements currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Also they are curiously able to die, if only when in a vulnerable state (think of the planet Sargeras cleaved) AND when adult titans die their souls don't go to any plane, perhaps even allowing them to regenerate fully in time.
    Both of those had circumstances that make it hard to make any generalised statements from them. Sargeras was himself an Order being, and may be able to cause final death to other Titans due to that, if that is even what happened. We also know that Aman'thul at least tried to weave a protective spell when Sargeras attacked them, so that may not be the normal outcome for them.

    For all we know, the World Soul of the world Sargeras chopped to pieces might simply have gone to whatever plane of Order there is, and Aman'thul might actually accidentally have made things more complicated when just letting Sargeras think he succeeded would have been more practical. As best as we know, the Titans themselves aren't truly aware what would happen where they to die "normally", if only because no conscious Titan ever has.

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I think the whole "sibling" thing is more a figure of speech than any actual relationship between them. Winter Queen could possibly mean it in a more literal manner. Since the entirety of Ardenweald is a pretty obvious reference to the Winter Court of Fae, there is likely to be a Summer Court as well, which would probably be Life aligned and lead by her sister. Just being connected to Life would already give her a connection to Ysera, a long-term resident of the Emerald Dream.

    Doesn't mean we have to have encountered her, though. I don't see enough evidence to make any declarative statements currently.
    Same. Anything is possible for sure, lots of different avenues they can go with it. I hope they drop another nugget at some point.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I think the whole "sibling" thing is more a figure of speech than any actual relationship between them. Winter Queen could possibly mean it in a more literal manner. Since the entirety of Ardenweald is a pretty obvious reference to the Winter Court of Fae, there is likely to be a Summer Court as well, which would probably be Life aligned and lead by her sister. Just being connected to Life would already give her a connection to Ysera, a long-term resident of the Emerald Dream.
    Ofcourse it is a figure of speach.But if you have read The Malazan book of the follen.Ericson shows there how can a not blood related entities become one family.(K'rul,Drakonus,Nightchil)
    Basically what that means to the Eternals is that they being part of the same pantheon then they share the same responsibilities and duties.Also their powers intervene.This is how they become a family.
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  17. #37
    I think the Firsts created all the Pantheons and they consider each other brothers and sisters. Eonar and the Winter Queen are especially close, as they are both associated with Life. We also know that The Primus himself used his time to hone his tactical and strategic skills beyond mortal constraints. It is said that he once sought out an unknown ally who could show him the infinite timeways and allow him to observe the same battle over and over again and see how slight differences in strategy and troop deployment could change the outcome of a conflict. After eons of such study, the Primus could instantly assess any situation and devise the likeliest path to victory. I think the Primate's ally is Aman'tul. The Wild Hunt also sells Memory of Eonar. Also note that the Winter Queen has nothing against the Night Elves, Tyrande, or those night warriors in animal form, but she is clearly unhappy to see Ysera. So her sister is clearly Eonar, not Elune.

  18. #38
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    I don't think she was talking about Elune or Eonar since both of them are clearly out of her league. The Eternal Ones seem to correlate to titan keepers in power level and origin, so perhaps she meant Freya. In this case, the word "sister" was obviously not used literally but rather in the meaning of "my counterpart in the physical realm".

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    I don't think she was talking about Elune or Eonar since both of them are clearly out of her league. The Eternal Ones seem to correlate to titan keepers in power level and origin
    How do you figure? What about their power or origin seem anything like the Keepers and not the Titans? Blizzard themselves said the two Pantheons are similar.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    How do you figure? What about their power or origin seem anything like the Keepers and not the Titans? Blizzard themselves said the two Pantheons are similar.
    Much like the Titans shaped and brought order to different worlds in the GDB, the First Ones shaped and brought order to the Shadowlands. This means that the Eternal Ones are of the First Ones' design, put in charge over the key realms of the Shadowlands just like the Titans put their keepers in charge of physical worlds. So the correlation is there.

    Another thing to consider is the size and power level of the Titans and the Eternal Ones. The Titans were planet-sized, they could squash Old Gods with their hand, while the Eternal Ones are nothing of the sort. They are the size of titan keepers and struggle to keep their realms together during the drought. It took a great amount of effort for the Winter Queen to bring Ysera back and she even started to wilt in the process.

    Also, Blizzard never said that the two Pantheons were similar, they said that the Pantheons are connected in some way.

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