Third Party Let's finally talk about it.

[Vegas82]

I know... it’s how EC enables or keeps parties down. I’m not arguing that a third party won 3 electoral votes or more... lol

The EC sucks because it denies everyone an equal say. If they gave us a ranked popular vote the landscape could shift quite rapidly.

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Don't forget the Russian funding...

You’re confusing the DSA with the NRA.

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/76487...report-reveals

[Josuke]

What are you talking about? It’s been a busy few days, with a big go live tomorrow. You can’t expect me to remember randoms on a forum.



Not an opinion... it’s literally a fact... I posted a picture. Facts don’t care about your feelings.



When I said browbeating, do you know what that means? Did you also notice I pointed out an institution barrier? This is a ridiculous reply...



Literally everything you say is empty rhetoric, that’s derived from stupid slogans. Like democrats and republicans keeping third parties down. You don’t understand how... and when literally pointed out to you, you respond with the above nonsense that amounts to nothing, but bloviated slogans.



Define healthy... give me something tangible. I’ve listed several issues in this thread already, if they still make you think it’s healthy in my opinion. I need you to define healthy... because again... it doesn’t have a tangible meaning... I can say it’s not healthy, because voter fraud against Trump. Give me a criteria that my reasoning has not met...

Oh you want me to believe this is a totally reasonable reaction to what I've said in this thread?

Can you go back and read it?

You literally quoted ben Shapiro and you whine about my empty platitudes, lol.

[Shadowferal]

The EC sucks because it denies everyone an equal say. If they gave us a ranked popular vote the landscape could shift quite rapidly.

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You’re confusing the DSA with the NRA.

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/76487...report-reveals

Russians launched pro-Jill Stein social media blitz to help Trump win election, reports say
The Russian effort to divert votes to Jill Stein was more extensive than previously thought

For the most part "we" aren't "finally talking about a third party." This is a conversion that always makes the rounds.
EC...voting...it's just masturbating...myself included. Because campaign finance reform will never happen.

[Vegas82]

Russians launched pro-Jill Stein social media blitz to help Trump win election, reports say
The Russian effort to divert votes to Jill Stein was more extensive than previously thought

For the most part "we" aren't "finally talking about a third party." This is a conversion that always makes the rounds.
EC...voting...it's just masturbating...myself included. Because campaign finance reform will never happen.

Jill Stein was a Green Party candidate...

[Shadowferal]

Jill Stein was a Green Party candidate...

Yes.
And Trump was the Republican candidate.
Both had Russian backing.

The big point is money....
PACs...lobbyists from corporations and other countries...well, there used to be a few hundred of these creatures 40 years ago. Now there's over 16k and growing. All of which have an accessibility to your congressman/woman that you the voter don't have. Does anyone imagine that any of these organizations have the public's interest at heart? It takes tens of thousands of dollar per day for a congressperson to keep that seat.

[Vegas82]

Yes.
And Trump was the Republican candidate.
Both had Russian backing.

The big point is money....
PACs...lobbyists from corporations and other countries...well, there used to be a few hundred of these creatures 40 years ago. Now there's over 16k and growing. All of which have an accessibility to your congressman/woman that you the voter don't have. Does anyone imagine that any of these organizations have the public's interest at heart? It takes tens of thousands of dollar per day for a congressperson to keep that seat.

Nothing to do with what we were actually discussing. Nice deflection and strawman though.

[PresidentElectMilchschake]

Nothing to do with what we were actually discussing. Nice deflection and strawman though.

It's related. Most "Third Parties" these days run a dark money PAC. They're among the worst offenders for FEC violations.

• Third Party - basically a way to monetize "I'm anti-establishment".
• Is a Third Party really a political group operating in good faith, or a COINTELPRO for someone like the Koch brothers?

I'm not voting third party until we get better third parties. Or until FEC violations have teeth.

[Shadowferal]

Nothing to do with what we were actually discussing. Nice deflection and strawman though.

Yeah..third party right?
Cue the laugh track

Continue to fondle away at the EC and how people vote...just don't touch the money.
The one yelling about campaign finance reform? He needs to derided, ridiculed, insulted, spat and pissed on...he needs to seen as a leper so no one goes near him.
Because the moment everyone takes him seriously enough to be a threat, is the moment the political tables flip.

[Monster Hunter]

You'd better add Trump party there as well. He has already carved out a good chunk of GOP into an extremist cult. I am sure if he doesn't go to jail somehow, he will run again in 2024 under a new banner or party name. So, there you go, there is your third party you were looking for!

being serious for a moment, half the issue with america is both major parties are long over due a major split.

the US and UK systems are vastly different but they do have one thing in common, the are adversarial and they tend to devolve towards a two party system, but for some reason in the UK we have never gotten as bad as america, and thats because over time the large parties have had many small and a few major splits that bring the system back to being properly multi party, even labour as a reletivly new party has had i think 2 major splits in its short life time and multiple smaller splits.

[Vegas82]

It's related. Most "Third Parties" these days run a dark money PAC. They're among the worst offenders for FEC violations.

• Third Party - basically a way to monetize "I'm anti-establishment".
• Is a Third Party really a political group operating in good faith, or a COINTELPRO for someone like the Koch brothers?

I'm not voting third party until we get better third parties. Or until FEC violations have teeth.

I was specifically talking about the DSA...

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Yeah..third party right?
Cue the laugh track

Continue to fondle away at the EC and how people vote...just don't touch the money.
The one yelling about campaign finance reform? He needs to derided, ridiculed, insulted, spat and pissed on...he needs to seen as a leper so no one goes near him.
Because the moment everyone takes him seriously enough to be a threat, is the moment the political tables flip.

I never said anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that the EC is a major hurdle in getting to the will of the people. I'm all for campaign finance reform. If we get a serious version of it we won't see many of the GOP trolls currently in Congress keep their seats.

Still waiting on your evidence that the DSA is funded by Russia.

[Doctor Amadeus]

There are only 3 parties I know about Green, Libertarian, and... I think it's the tax payers party? Or did they change their name? There is some local party which has changed names one was about the constitution and the other was about taxes I can't remember which is the old one and which is the new one.

Anyways I know Libertarians the best while they seem rational Libertarian policies are actually fairly terrible. At best Libertarianism can be described on a scale of lazy at best and at worst it's anarchy.

Green I should like the idea of but I find myself not liking the party any time I look into them.

Then the local party is radical radical right wing extremists that despite naming themselves something about the constitution (at least at some point) actually want to destroy it.

I picked green out of the options I put because they seem the most relevant in the U.S but I don't really like what t he Green Party turned into Under Jill Stein.

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You'd better add Trump party there as well. He has already carved out a good chunk of GOP into an extremist cult. I am sure if he doesn't go to jail somehow, he will run again in 2024 under a new banner or party name. So, there you go, there is your third party you were looking for!

You're right but My guess is he won't be around by 2024 one way or another, I do believe the Republican Party will split much like the Democratic Party. But I think for the 3rd party to develop as I have always said it is going to have to happen on a grass roots level, and going for President for example as the first aim is not idea.


It really needs to happen at the local level and the state, then representatives and so on. Even School boards to City Council it will take a lot of work so it needs to be don't in that order, to change laws, reach people on a personal level and get votes.

[JohnBrown1917]

It's related. Most "Third Parties" these days run a dark money PAC. They're among the worst offenders for FEC violations.

• Third Party - basically a way to monetize "I'm anti-establishment".
• Is a Third Party really a political group operating in good faith, or a COINTELPRO for someone like the Koch brothers?

I'm not voting third party until we get better third parties. Or until FEC violations have teeth.

You just make that up about anybody who runs against the democrats, nothing new here.

[Doctor Amadeus]

And also... who is going to implement it? The Democratic Party and Republican Party are never going to open up the stage for third parties.

Ironically it seems to be what the USA needs the most, to be able to counter the extreme polarization it suffers from, but it's systems are not setup to achieve the solution it needs.

It isn't up to Democrats or Republicans, see this is the biggest part of the problem with those advocating 3rd party. People don't do their research don't know how anything works, get angry that everyone else doesn't help them at their own demise, and assumes nobody else could possibly have the same barriers.


If a independent party develops a platform does the work, achieves the requirements they don't have to ask to be part of anything. As someone else said, Ross Perot did it, Jessie the Body Ventura did it and won the State Governorship.

The problem with third party is that it requires a lot of work for it to last, just like Republicans just like Democrats.

There are other Third Parties that have tried and Third Parties on a national level that no longer exist as well. They don't exist for the same reasons I mentioned you have to put in the work at all levels. Otherwise it won't be sustained.

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I don’t think they meant the debate stage, more the actual national stage where they matter.

Again you can't just show up shout I have something to say with few of you and your friends or fans and expect that everyone is going to make room. Especially on a national level against parties that have quality and qualified candidates all up and down the ticket.


Or maybe people really want more international where a porn star, Gary Coleman and Arnold Schwarzenegger run for governor, most if none of them even had a party they were recognized.

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How's it getting funded?

If Trump has proved anything or Bernie is that you really DO NOT need Funny or Super PAC's have proved that.


You need sustainability, you need candidates who aren't out of their fucking mind, you need people if they don't have money willing to put in the work, and mind. People need to be energized by the message and brought together by core beliefs. You can't buy or sell that in the traditional sense, I mean you can Trick people to a degree.

But Bottom line is that the only excuses for why there isn't a third party of any kind are excuses.

[Pro-Violence]

It isn't up to Democrats or Republicans, see this is the biggest part of the problem with those advocating 3rd party. People don't do their research don't know how anything works, get angry that everyone else doesn't help them at their own demise, and assumes nobody else could possibly have the same barriers.


If a independent party develops a platform does the work, achieves the requirements they don't have to ask to be part of anything. As someone else said, Ross Perot did it, Jessie the Body Ventura did it and won the State Governorship.

The problem with third party is that it requires a lot of work for it to last, just like Republicans just like Democrats.

There are other Third Parties that have tried and Third Parties on a national level that no longer exist as well. They don't exist for the same reasons I mentioned you have to put in the work at all levels. Otherwise it won't be sustained.

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Again you can't just show up shout I have something to say with few of you and your friends or fans and expect that everyone is going to make room. Especially on a national level against parties that have quality and qualified candidates all up and down the ticket.


Or maybe people really want more international where a porn star, Gary Coleman and Arnold Schwarzenegger run for governor, most if none of them even had a party they were recognized.

That is the issue.

There really shouldn't rules in place that require it to be a titanesque level of undertaking to be able to get a footing with a third party in the USA.
You have both the EC and a FPTP voting system which make it difficult for third parties to have any chance at governing or even representation, especially because it systematically makes third party votes to be worth less than the votes for the 2 biggest parties are.

Those barriers need to be taken down. But both of those require rules and laws to be changed, both of which the responsibility lies with the Democratic and Republican Party. Currently they can rest assured in the knowledge that there is a big juicy pile of money that is entirely reserved for the two of them. Making it easier for third parties to attain a share of the pie would require a sense of non-pragmatic political suicide. As a competitive organization, why would you ever willingly start sharing your spoils of war with a third party, a dangerous competitor?

[PC2]

Third parties are fine by me but they're not necessary at all. As long as the people can vote out the current party and reverse the current policy direction then ultimately everything will work itself out over the long run even if there is only two parties.

[Doctor Amadeus]

That is the issue.

There really shouldn't rules in place that require it to be a titanesque level of undertaking to be able to get a footing with a third party in the USA.
You have both the EC and a FPTP voting system which make it difficult for third parties to have any chance at governing or even representation, especially because it systematically makes third party votes to be worth less than the votes for the 2 biggest parties are.

Those barriers need to be taken down. But both of those require rules and laws to be changed, both of which the responsibility lies with the Democratic and Republican Party. Currently they can rest assured in the knowledge that there is a big juicy pile of money that is entirely reserved for the two of them. Making it easier for third parties to attain a share of the pie would require a sense of non-pragmatic political suicide. As a competitive organization, why would you ever willingly start sharing your spoils of war with a third party, a dangerous competitor?

Again that isn’t how any of it works. There are no barriers outside of those that exist for others stopping third party’s.

Honestly I said to myself and my wife before this last Presidential election this was my final one. At least likely in this form.

I’m a liberal left and A Democrat I’m proud of all of it.

But personally, personally I’ve been unhappy with how I personally see the Democratic Party in that yeah I would prefer a party more to the left but then not so left is has idiot and conspiracy nuts.

I don’t know what that means yet. But I’m seriously looking at a Third Party. Hopefully just a Liberal Party or Property Party.

[Felya]

Oh you want me to believe this is a totally reasonable reaction to what I've said in this thread?

Yes, it absolutely is.

Can you go back and read it?

No... the fact that you take people trying to explain how third parties function, as some sort of attack, is amateur hour.

You literally quoted ben Shapiro and you whine about my empty platitudes, lol.

Show it... present it...

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Again that isn’t how any of it works. There are no barriers outside of those that exist for others stopping third party’s.

You have to understand... basic reality is an affront to these people... you need to filter everything through Twitter bullshit.

[Shadowferal]

If Trump has proved anything or Bernie is that you really DO NOT need Funny or Super PAC's have proved that.


You need sustainability, you need candidates who aren't out of their fucking mind, you need people if they don't have money willing to put in the work, and mind. People need to be energized by the message and brought together by core beliefs. You can't buy or sell that in the traditional sense, I mean you can Trick people to a degree.

But Bottom line is that the only excuses for why there isn't a third party of any kind are excuses.

This last presidential race cost over 7 billion. How is this okay? And don't think for a moment this money came from Joe Average and his little nickel and dime donation at tax time.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yes, it absolutely is.



No... the fact that you take people trying to explain how third parties function, as some sort of attack, is amateur hour.



Show it... present it...

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You have to understand... basic reality is an affront to these people... you need to filter everything through Twitter bullshit.

True


Which is why I’m trying to actually talk about a legitimate third party and what that looks like in terms of core values and organization.

Separate reality from fiction. Even if most don’t believe one is needed. This discussion is about the realities of how.

That’s why I stated the criteria which is:

A National organized party.
Qualified Candidates on the local level.
Community by community door by door connecting.

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This last presidential race cost over 7 billion. How is this okay? And don't think for a moment this money came from Joe Average and his little nickel and dime donation at tax time.

Then why didn’t Jeb Bush win. He over spent everyone in 2016. And Trump and Bernie raised a fraction of that.

Between a strong grass roots campaign to national press everyday for Trump for free.

Again it’s not money.

[Kathranis]

I don't see how a third party can realistically be effective without reforms to campaign law and changes to our electoral systems. The Republican and Democratic parties have such a huge advantage in infrastructure and funding.

I also don't see either party splitting in a meaningful way, despite their already fractured nature. They have a hard enough time retaining power as it is.

Now, if we talk hypothetically about the electoral college being eliminated? Maybe. The Republican party would become far less of a threat in national elections and would frankly need to transmute into something different. And then you might see the formation of a more centrist party, with progressives gradually shifting to a new party platform.