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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    mm only doe around 10% more dps, i dunno what you smoke man haha

    anyway, at the reset they buff the bm by 5% so it should be at the same level or really close to mm at dps
    In single target sure I would agree, but in AoE MM has the clear advantage.
    Personally I raid with BM (only on HC) but in M+ I'm pretty much forced to go MM to deliver the needed AoE.

    So the 5% buff is nice, but I would also like to see something to bring us more on par AoE wise.

  2. #202
    BM Hunters doing good? You must be high or something.


    My DeviantART: http://hypzone.deviantart.com/ | Requests: Closed

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by ReleaseDay View Post
    At least BM. It's so weak its not fun to play and i'm therefor leaning towards unsub. I struggle doing normal WQs, I lose almost all 1v1 wpvp, in BG's im basically a critter.

    This coming from someone who knows the spec inside out, and with "decent" gear (including BiS 190ilvl wep).

    Those of you who switched over to MM, tell me your experience. I have a bunch of alt, but this is my main and considering the unbelivably slow grind with covenants, the maw etc, I will not play alts in this expansion.
    Its the easiest spec in the game, by far.

    Unlimited movement + ranged + various buffs.

    You literally need to be bottom dps to be balanced.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    People who say that BM is easily obviously haven't tried weaving cleave into maintaining 3 stacks of frenzy while ensuring maximum uptime on SFE.
    That's because 99% of people who claim BM is faceroll easy hasn't ever played BM beyond doing some world quests and LFR.
    They look at the skill floor of BM, which is basically: press every button on CD, keep the pet on 'assist', don't stop moving and you do decent damage on top of having an easy time in open world content.

    That's fine, but the skill of a class is determined by the ceiling (as in how much can I optimize to get more dps) rather than the skill floor (as in, how easy is it to play the class and get the bare minimum of results).

    BM has gained quite a lot of skill ceiling improvements over the last few years.
    - Frenzy stacks (there is actually a huge delta in the uptime of frenzy between good BM players and bad BM players, as the latter mostly spam Barbed Shot)
    - Beast Cleave uptime (especially now that Rapid Reload is no longer a thing, the cutoff for 'spamming' Multishot is a lot higher than your general M+/Raid AoE pack)
    - Proper Cobra Shot usage (making sure you are both not spending too much focus and making the most efficient use of the KC CDR)
    - SFE uptime (the mechanic is annoying and clunky, but it does increase skill cap)
    - Pet Positioning (for AoE quite important and also something that a lot of players overlook as a skill ceiling factor)
    Individually they're not all HUGE factors, but together they add up.

    Looking purely at the rotation and stuff to keep track of, BM isn't in the harder segment of classes, but I probably wouldn't place it at the bottom either.

    Then there is the ever lasting argument of BM is easy, because it's completely mobile.
    Which, admittedly is a really big boon, but it's advantage is overvalued on such a level that it taken a whole life on it's own.

    Most casters have much more mobility than people want to admit; and all casters have abilities to use when they do have to move. As soon as you know a class well enough to know what to do when you do have to move (e.g use filler abilities / refresh DoTs), you lose surprisingly little dps over the course of a fight.

  5. #205
    I don't know why they got so lazy with their balancing.
    Instead of changing a general modifier they should once again starting changing single abilites which also have less impact on their precious PVP balancing.

    Just to start they should add 30% damage to beast cleave, it's still way below MMs capabilites then but a direct m+ buff without making BM in any way "overpowered".

    And talking about balancing they should rework the BM Torghast powers buffing next barbed shot to stack without any time or cast limit (who thought about that ability in the first place? Are we supposed to not use barbed shot until we destroy 100 phylacteries?), and the food that gives your pet a 100% damage buff should be changed to a stacking ability that everytime you collect it your pet gets permantly buffed with 5% damage and health, stacking up to 20 times. The kill shot epic that gives a 25% chance to kill a creature should at least give a 100% chance (considering the CD of the spell and other classes get a 10% execute on any spell without CD).

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    Snip.
    I played the spec in bfa to have a faceroll class to cimb m+'s with. It hasnt changed since then.

    There is absolutely nothing to it.

    Keep 3 stacks offrenzy up, with an instant attack. I mean. Its ez. The only thought process that goes into this is dont overspend on your resource so you can cast it.

    Keep up the beast cleave buff for aoe. Are you kidding me? You think this is hard? Its another instant attack. Just dont overspend focus.

    You can do this while never standing still.

    There is literally nothing easier to do in wow then play a BM hunter in challenging content(ie content where you have to move a lot while doing damage).

    I get that the boon isnt quite as high in lfr where doging shit hardly matters.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I played the spec in bfa to have a faceroll class to cimb m+'s with. It hasnt changed since then.

    There is absolutely nothing to it.

    Keep 3 stacks offrenzy up, with an instant attack. I mean. Its ez. The only thought process that goes into this is dont overspend on your resource so you can cast it.

    Keep up the beast cleave buff for aoe. Are you kidding me? You think this is hard? Its another instant attack. Just dont overspend focus.

    You can do this while never standing still.

    There is literally nothing easier to do in wow then play a BM hunter in challenging content(ie content where you have to move a lot while doing damage).

    I get that the boon isnt quite as high in lfr where doging shit hardly matters.
    This literally goes for 9/10 specs though?
    Or you claiming that other specs are in contract that much harder?

    What you made above can be made for basically ANY spec in the game and make it seem easy.

    And the mobility boon is way oversold. There really is nothing where you have to keep moving for extended periods of time without a solution for other classes.
    There is always something you can cast or do on the move; and as long as you roughly know the situation you're facing, you know how to face those situations.

    As MM i have absolutely zero issues with having to move, other than the first week when I picked up the spec and am still learning the flow of the spec.
    Same goes for my boomkin/ele/spriest alts that I play on and off; there is really nothing that makes them significantly harder than BM.

    Same goes for cast times. There is really nothing that makes cast times harder to work around than instant casts.
    Having cast times makes it harder to react at times, but having cast times also gives you more 'passive time' to think a few steps ahead / check a timer / double check your positioning etc.

    Nothing in that all makes BM belong as far below the other specs as it currently does. BM is more than 5% behind the next worst spec other than SV, which also desperately needs buffs.

    And keep in mind that charts ALREADY ACCOUNT for the fact that other specs have to move.
    If "Spec A" and BM are both doing 4k dps, the mobility disadvantage of Spec A vs BM is already accounted for in the DPS. The fact that Spec A loses dps as it has to move means that it does more damage when it doesn't; or it wouldn't have the same DPS overal.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    There is absolutely nothing to it.

    Keep 3 stacks offrenzy up, with an instant attack. I mean. Its ez. The only thought process that goes into this is dont overspend on your resource so you can cast it.

    Keep up the beast cleave buff for aoe. Are you kidding me? You think this is hard? Its another instant attack. Just dont overspend focus.
    I don't get your argument here. Your list already contains two mechanics that most other specs that follow a simple priority rotation don't have to care about.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    I don't get your argument here. Your list already contains two mechanics that most other specs that follow a simple priority rotation don't have to care about.
    Actually no.

    The rotation in itself is simple enough that anyone can do it. Especially if you have a weak arua for it(or some other way of tracking the buffs).

    The thing that makes BM exceptionally easy compared to the other easy specs is that it can move while doing everything along with being ranged.

    That means you never get punnished for not thinking about when you use cd's, when you start longer casts and such. The only place you can get punnished is if the boss doesnt take damage for a while.

    100% movement uptime + not being able to be punnished for bad management of cd's is why its the easiest spec to play - along with having a very easy rotation
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2021-02-02 at 03:01 PM. Reason: typo's

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Actually no.

    The rotation in itself is simple enough that anyone can do it. Especially if you have a weak arua for it(or some other way of tracking the buffs).

    The thing that makes BM exceptionally easy compared to the other easy specs is that it can move while doing everything along with being ranged.

    That means you never get punnished for not thinking about when you use cd's, when you start longer casts and such. The only place you can get punnished is if the boss doesnt take damage for a while.

    100% movement uptime + not being able to be punnished for bad management of cd's is why its the easiest spec to play - along with having a very easy rotation
    So your argument is not the rotation or the spec mechanics (as they are pretty much as all other specs in the game, which class has a hard priority system especially when you have a weak aura for it?) but that they have no movement penalty. Which obviously is one of the core design features of the BM spec, and obviously should translate into their damage.

    But there is a difference between a reasonable damage tradeoff and a pointless spec - what's the use of a spec not hindered by movement when other specs of the class still perform better even in movement heavy fights?

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I played the spec in bfa to have a faceroll class to cimb m+'s with. It hasnt changed since then.

    There is absolutely nothing to it.

    Keep 3 stacks offrenzy up, with an instant attack. I mean. Its ez. The only thought process that goes into this is dont overspend on your resource so you can cast it.

    Keep up the beast cleave buff for aoe. Are you kidding me? You think this is hard? Its another instant attack. Just dont overspend focus.

    You can do this while never standing still.

    There is literally nothing easier to do in wow then play a BM hunter in challenging content(ie content where you have to move a lot while doing damage).

    I get that the boon isnt quite as high in lfr where doging shit hardly matters.
    So you’re either lying or mixing up abilities somehow. Barbed Shot, which gives Frenzy stacks, is a free use ability and costs no Focus to spend.
    You keep stating “don’t overspend focus,” which in itself is a difference of skill ceiling vs skill floor that the person you responded to is discussing. For Beast Cleave, there were (I can’t say are as I haven’t played in SL yet) intricacies, such as what abilities you use for the amount of targets. How many abilities you can use between Multishot without overspending Focus, what abilities you use in between, or at higher targets (which starts around 4-5+) where MS replaces the in between abilities which then does make Beast Cleave much easier to maintain.
    Anyone that raids and sees Mages or Boomies jumping around and moving while maintains very high numbers can tell you that movement penalties aren’t as high as people think. If encounters were designed in such a way that a player has to move every 1-3 seconds then this whole “BM should be punished for having 100% mobility/uptime” argument would have merit, but encounters are very forgiving and there are almost no encounters where that comes into play in such a context to matter.
    Now, I’m not stating that BM isn’t extremely easy. It definitely is, but that’s not to state that almost every other single spec in the game isn’t just as easy.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    People who say that BM is easily obviously haven't tried weaving cleave into maintaining 3 stacks of frenzy while ensuring maximum uptime on SFE.
    I have. It is easy.

    What now.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    So your argument is not the rotation or the spec mechanics (as they are pretty much as all other specs in the game, which class has a hard priority system especially when you have a weak aura for it?) but that they have no movement penalty. Which obviously is one of the core design features of the BM spec, and obviously should translate into their damage.

    But there is a difference between a reasonable damage tradeoff and a pointless spec - what's the use of a spec not hindered by movement when other specs of the class still perform better even in movement heavy fights?
    Not sure what you are missing. Its one of the easiest specs to play rotations wise and its mobilty makes it the easiest spec in the game. its made for people who are trying to learn wow.

    Its not meant to be good at high end stuff because its so easy to play

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Not sure what you are missing. Its one of the easiest specs to play rotations wise and its mobilty makes it the easiest spec in the game. its made for people who are trying to learn wow.

    Its not meant to be good at high end stuff because its so easy to play
    Not sure you're aware of this but Blizzard hasn't added another layer of balance based on how easy or difficult something is. By your logic movement + simplicity means BM should be 100% unviable. Even half of a statement like that would push 80% of the classes way further down than they currently are based on how easy they are.

    People argue that "It's fine because they have movement" but then you tell them they're underperforming on movement heavy fights and people say "It's fine, they're also easy" Excuse after excuse from completely clueless people because, for some reason they just don't want BM to be relevant.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    So you’re either lying or mixing up abilities somehow. Barbed Shot, which gives Frenzy stacks, is a free use ability and costs no Focus to spend.
    You keep stating “don’t overspend focus,” which in itself is a difference of skill ceiling vs skill floor that the person you responded to is discussing. For Beast Cleave, there were (I can’t say are as I haven’t played in SL yet) intricacies, such as what abilities you use for the amount of targets. How many abilities you can use between Multishot without overspending Focus, what abilities you use in between, or at higher targets (which starts around 4-5+) where MS replaces the in between abilities which then does make Beast Cleave much easier to maintain.
    Anyone that raids and sees Mages or Boomies jumping around and moving while maintains very high numbers can tell you that movement penalties aren’t as high as people think. If encounters were designed in such a way that a player has to move every 1-3 seconds then this whole “BM should be punished for having 100% mobility/uptime” argument would have merit, but encounters are very forgiving and there are almost no encounters where that comes into play in such a context to matter.
    Now, I’m not stating that BM isn’t extremely easy. It definitely is, but that’s not to state that almost every other single spec in the game isn’t just as easy.
    Lying? What? Barbed shot not costing focus just makes it even easier.

    What the fuck are you on about rofl

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    Not sure you're aware of this but Blizzard hasn't added another layer of balance based on how easy or difficult something is. By your logic movement + simplicity means BM should be 100% unviable. Even half of a statement like that would push 80% of the classes way further down than they currently are based on how easy they are.

    People argue that "It's fine because they have movement" but then you tell them they're underperforming on movement heavy fights and people say "It's fine, they're also easy" Excuse after excuse from completely clueless people.
    No thats not what i'm saying, and i disagree with your 2nd part

    You are misrepresenting me

    Edit:
    The reason people dont want BM to be relevant, as you call it, is because its the easiest spec in the game. It shouldnt be "relevant" compared to any other spec
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2021-02-02 at 04:56 PM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    mm only doe around 10% more dps, i dunno what you smoke man haha

    anyway, at the reset they buff the bm by 5% so it should be at the same level or really close to mm at dps
    What are you smoking? around 10%? The difference between MM and BM at Mythic level is varying from 17 to 28% on the vast majority of bosses... and then there's the case of the last 3 bosses being 100% MM because BM is that far behind you don't want any there.
    Last edited by awadh; 2021-02-02 at 05:01 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    What are you smoking? 10%? The difference between MM and BM at Mythic level is varying from 17 to 28% on the vast majority of bosses.
    One of the reasons for this is that pretty much anyone who is good at the game plays MM

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Lying? What? Barbed shot not costing focus just makes it even easier.

    What the fuck are you on about rofl

    - - - Updated - - -



    No thats not what i'm saying, and i disagree with your 2nd part

    You are misrepresenting me

    Edit:
    The reason people dont want BM to be relevant, as you call it, is because its the easiest spec in the game. It shouldnt be "relevant" compared to any other spec

    Pretty sure all classes and specs should be relevant and useful in a well designed game.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Agallion View Post
    Pretty sure all classes and specs should be relevant and useful in a well designed game.
    Someone has to be bottom. Relevant is a subjective term

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Someone has to be bottom. Relevant is a subjective term
    Bottom doesnt have to be irrelevant - regardless of ability. Skill ceiling has no play on the classes ability to compete for relevance.

    You are trying to play the elitest card, and you are doing so poorly.

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