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  1. #21
    why mention world quests in SL but not daily quests in WotLK lol? where do you think the concept came from

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    The fact that expansions got smaller post-Wrath and then again post-MoP isn't something that needs to be pointed out. It's a universally accepted fact.
    It's not exactly far-fetched either. Fewer players = less money = less content.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludvig View Post
    why mention world quests in SL but not daily quests in WotLK lol? where do you think the concept came from
    I did under PvE for wotlk.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    The fact that expansions got smaller post-Wrath and then again post-MoP isn't something that needs to be pointed out. It's a universally accepted fact.
    Its really not - countless people endlessly spam that recent expansions have substantially more content than anything previously. Not saying whos right or wrong, but it absolutely is a common theme among fanbois.

  5. #25
    Missed mythic+?

    The first real PvE alternate to raiding?

  6. #26
    Torghast in itself is more dungeon content than all of the dungeons in WotLK.

    There is your answer.

  7. #27
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Most recurring complaint by people sat in Dalaran between resets in WOTLK: - There's nothing to do!
    The fog of time really does a number on some people.

    WOTLK:

    Dungeons
    PVP (Wintergrasp, BGs, WPVP)
    Reputation
    Raids
    Professions
    Dailies

    Shadowlands:

    Dungeons (Normal/Heroic/M0)
    Covenants, with its story chapters and unique features such as Soulbinding
    Reputations
    PVP (Instanced, War Mode with X rewards to pursue)
    Raid (coming soon)
    M+ (Counting it as separate because apparently some people get sour otherwise)
    Professions/Legendary
    Rares/Events that make zones relevant long after they've been leveled through.
    Torghast
    The Maw
    World quests/Dailies + Weekly quest content.


    Nevermind counting release stuff (as in shit players can do) for Legion, BfA and MoP. I'm perplexed as to how people are now calling WOTLK hardcore compared to newer expansions as well.

    I prefer most of WOTLK's leveling to that of Shadowlands though, with the exception of Revendreth. Yes, even Boring Tundra. I'm just not into the extreme on-rails that goes on in SL leveling zones... I'm for it when balanced, but Bastion is horrendous.

    People suggesting that patch content has gotten "lesser and lesser" are smoking the reefer of Idunnolol or some shit... Along with being oblivious to the expansion of the dev team that came during MoP, and happened again during BfA.

    Granted, that makes their collective f-ups in design choices LESS excusable, not more. But right is right.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2020-12-03 at 11:20 PM.
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  8. #28
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I can't speak for everyone, but Shadowlands is the first expansion in a long time where I feel almost overwhelmed with things to do on a daily basis. In WotLK once I hit 80 it was basically the work of maxing my professions while doing rep grinds and dungeon running before I hit raids in earnest. Pretty par for the course, really. In Shadowlands on hitting max level you've got professions, rep grinds, dungeons (three total difficulties), your Covenant content, Callings, the newly-refined Mission Table (which is actually a lot of fun in comparison to the one in BFA which was more of a mindless time-waster), Conduits, Torghast, and finally (as well as important to me at least) a huge amount of overworld content you can do for mounts, xmog, and additional anima. Some of that will probably fall off the radar as it gets completed, of course; but initially there's a seemingly huge checklist of stuff to do. Unlike the doldrums of BfA even in its beginning with the AP grind there's a sense that I'm never really bereft of things to do in Shadowlands.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Lets compare MoP content to any other xpac, i think MoP Destroys WOTLK on content. What u wanna point out OP?
    I love MoP, it's my favourite expansion, but how much of what made it great was in at launch? It was definitely an expansion that got better after a shaky launch.

  10. #30
    Warchief Crillam's Avatar
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    Naxx heroic? It was Ulduar that first tested the heroic concept by adding like the red button on Mimiron or killing the bosses in a certain order. Then with ToTC they Heroic option were added.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Crillam View Post
    Naxx heroic? It was Ulduar that first tested the heroic concept by adding like the red button on Mimiron or killing the bosses in a certain order. Then with ToTC they Heroic option were added.
    Good catch. Fixed.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's not exactly far-fetched either. Fewer players = less money = less content.
    The game makes significantly more revenue now than then even with a larger team working on it.

    (the store didn't exist in the same capacity back then)

  13. #33
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    The game makes significantly more revenue now than then even with a larger team working on it.

    (the store didn't exist in the same capacity back then)
    Yep, although I dread to see what the constant chasing of profit growths rather than staying profitable has in store (HAH!) when it comes to micro-transactions/FOMO-tactics in the future...

    Considering the statement of their latest quarterly report, I wouldn't be surprised if we're at or above 10 million players, as the statement includes WoD with its peak number.

    Gonna be interesting to see the next report, for sure.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2020-12-03 at 11:29 PM.
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    Current count of Full/High pop WoW servers: 85 in EU alone. That's an increase from the last count.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    The game makes significantly more revenue now than then even with a larger team working on it.

    (the store didn't exist in the same capacity back then)
    They did have close to 12 million subs during the Trial of the Crusader patch though.

  15. #35
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    People massively overstate how earlier expansions in WoW had so much to do. One of the big issues with these statements is people making them often exaggerate things they like to do, and dismiss anything they don't like to do as not really content to them. Not really stating that there may or may not be more to do, but it's a common trend you see in threads like these or people "remembering" what it was like in the good old days.

    For me WoTLK was one of the worst expansions from a launch standpoint (and yes, I include WoD). The leveling wasn't really all that special and the dungeon/raid content was a joke. That might sound elitist, but WoW without a challenge is a huge turnoff to me and only having a single encounter with any sort of challenge isn't really a good look in the six months of a launch. Lots of people (especially people who have a raging cock for classic) will tell you things like "MAKE YOUR OWN CHALLENGE", which I guess you could say is true, but I don't consider doing a dungeon with less people really fun or challenging, I consider it tedious.

    WoTLk had a lot of dungeons and various amounts of world quests in each zones (some having far more than others). Not only were dungeons easy, but they were also obsolete pretty quickly into the expansion because the raid content was also easy. Why spam dungeons for pre-bis raid gear when you can clear Naxxaramas with leveling gear, by-passing the process completely? The issue here was there was zero replay value and the challenge was more or less removed from the game.

    All in all it's very hard for people to convince me that WoW hasn't been building upon the past games with each and every expansion launch. Sure some features are lost or diminished, but the core of the game generally is expanded on (for the most part) with each passing expansion. You might not like some of the core features or participate in them, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    WoTLK had a lot of zones to level in and a hodgepodge of world quests strung out throughout ever zone. Due to the difficulty curve, almost all of it could be ignored if you wanted to. Thus, for me, WoTLK launch was Arena and raid logging while leveling more characters hoping that the expansion would get better. If Ulduar had followed the same difficulty as WoTLK Naxxaramas, I probably would've quit the game to be honest.

    WoW as a product was basically reaching it's maturity stage, and I honestly believe there's nothing any developer could do to continue WoWs growth (from a subscription standpoint) going forward. Every game eventually is going to dwindle, and while certain decisions can likely curb the loss in player base, I think the primary reason WoW was growing at that point wasn't because of the amazing content, but because the game was only 4-6 years old instead of well, over a decade. That, and a big portion of the player base had a vested interest in seeing the conclusion of the expansion solely because it was a continuation of the events of WC3 (I know several friends who stayed almost exclusively for this point alone).

  16. #36
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tirisfalskeleton View Post
    Added some of those.

    Trying to determine if early Wrath was better than early Shadowlands. Was there actually more content back then?
    i mean obviously there was, the question is, was that content better?
    Yes naxx existed.. but it was a recycle
    yeah there was tons of raids... but they were 1 boss fight
    yeah there was tyons of dungeons, but most of them were just the exact same skins, multiple dungeons that could have just been.. 1 dungeon.

    Here is the thing about game development

    back in the day the style of game design was
    quantity over quality.
    now adays its the opposite. less raids, but the raids are MUCH more detailed.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2020-12-03 at 11:43 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by tirisfalskeleton View Post
    They did have close to 12 million subs during the Trial of the Crusader patch though.
    Yeah, which is obviously super impressive. But the current playerbase has a lot of whales and has shown a willingness to pay much more than 15 a month. I wouldn't be surprised if they make almost as much from faction transfers and race as subs.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    i mean obviously there was, the question is, was that content better?
    Yes naxx existed.. but it was a recycle
    yeah there was tons of raids... but they were 1 boss fight
    yeah there was tyons of dungeons, but most of them were just the exact same skins, multiple dungeons that could have just been.. 1 dungeon.
    Well does that make early Shadowlands better than early Wrath?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Yeah, which is obviously super impressive. But the current playerbase has a lot of whales and has shown a willingness to pay much more than 15 a month. I wouldn't be surprised if they make almost as much from faction transfers and race as subs.
    Ya I think so as well.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Yep, although I dread to see what the constant chasing of profit growths rather than staying profitable has in store (HAH!) when it comes to micro-transactions/FOMO-tactics in the future...

    Considering the statement of their latest quarterly report, I wouldn't be surprised if we're at or above 10 million players, as the statement includes WoD with its peak number.

    Gonna be interesting to see the next report, for sure.
    Hard to tell. Keep in mind that a lot of the increased engagement prior to launch is due to Classic being a thing (Classic was so popular that it doubled subscriptions when back when it released in August of 2019). MoP had around 9 million subs prior to its release iirc which increased to 10 million when it launched so WoW could definitely be sitting at 10 million right now. I'd be interested to see how the proportions have changed in regards to the whole classic/retail thing.
    Also we don't really know whether "Franchise engagement" is the same thing as subscriptions.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-12-04 at 12:03 AM.

  20. #40
    Its not debatable at this point. Shadowlands is easily a top 2 expansion, everyone agrees.

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