First raid overall difficulty?

[Gorsameth]

O love it. We were 11/12 Mythic in Nylotha. Now we can acutally progress beteween the difficulties.
Granted for PuGs it is probably to hard unless they have very good coordination/lead.

But then again... imho raids should not be tuned around PuGs.

Normal, previously known as Flex is meant as a pug/group of friends level difficulty tho.

[VinceVega]

Normal, previously known as Flex is meant as a pug/group of friends level difficulty tho.

I wrote "imho".
Also group of friends can organize in a guild.

And yes normal is MAYBE to hard for now(!!!!). But it is the firts day. everyone is massivly underequipped. In two weeks PuGs will clear it without difficulty.
Just because it is supposed to be easy does not mean it should be a handout. And normal in BfA was laughable easy. Normal Nylotha was so easy you could ignore half the mechanics and jsut go full braindead mode on the boss. Clear first day by nearly every pug i have seen.
Most progressed into heroic in the first week.

Now you have to work a little bit. Really not even hard. Just a bit. It is still doable. Just not in one day.

[Vampyrr]

I wrote "imho".
Also group of friends can organize in a guild.

And yes normal is MAYBE to hard for now(!!!!). But it is the firts day. everyone is massivly underequipped. In two weeks PuGs will clear it without difficulty.
Just because it is supposed to be easy does not mean it should be a handout. And normal in BfA was laughable easy. Normal Nylotha was so easy you could ignore half the mechanics and jsut go full braindead mode on the boss. Clear first day by nearly every pug i have seen.
Most progressed into heroic in the first week.

Now you have to work a little bit. Really not even hard. Just a bit. It is still doable. Just not in one day.

Pugs will never clear this without difficulty. Not only is gear an issue but there are a LOT of mechanics to keep track of and no amount of gear will let you ignore that. Pugs will struggle with the current iteration until next tier if it is not adjusted. (I am saying pugs not organized groups who play with each other and know what they are doing)

[VinceVega]

Pugs will never clear this without difficulty. Not only is gear an issue but there are a LOT of mechanics to keep track of and no amount of gear will let you ignore that. Pugs will struggle with the current iteration until next tier if it is not adjusted. (I am saying pugs not organized groups who play with each other and know what they are doing)

Every boss can be outgeared. At some point you can nearly ignore mechanics EXCEPT insta death stuff like the DPS check on Sludgefist and Artificer.

They will clear it. 100%. Just missing gear. And it will not happen this week.

If someone only want to get through the raid without any effort LFR is there for them.

[Darkke]

Every boss can be outgeared. At some point you can nearly ignore mechanics EXCEPT insta death stuff like the DPS check on Sludgefist and Artificer.

They will clear it. 100%. Just missing gear. And it will not happen this week.

If someone only want to get through the raid without any effort LFR is there for them.

Obviously PUG will be able to clear it at some point. But their point was that PUG will not be able to clear it when it's relevant content, and I 100% agree with that. There's no way your standard PUG will clear the normal raid with <200ilvl gear if it stays as it is now. Even organized guild groups with full 184+ gear are struggling with it.

[ekn88]

Obviously PUG will be able to clear it at some point. But their point was that PUG will not be able to clear it when it's relevant content, and I 100% agree with that. There's no way your standard PUG will clear the normal raid with <200ilvl gear if it stays as it is now. Even organized guild groups with full 184+ gear are struggling with it.

You're way off base with this one. Cleared it on first day after 4 hours in a PUG. Only boss that was a problem was Lady Inerva.

Shriekwing - 1st attempt
Huntsman - 1st attempt
Sun King - 2nd attempt
Artificer - 2nd attempt
Hungering Destroyer - 1st attempt
Lady Inerva - 5th attempt
The council of blood - 3rd attempt
Sludgefist - 2nd attempt
Stone Legion - 2nd attempt
Sire Denathrius - 3rd attempt

I'm disappointed in the lack of difficulty but do enjoy the fights in terms of mechanics, looking forward to mythics.

[apelsinjuice]

You're way off base with this one. Cleared it on first day after 4 hours in a PUG. Only boss that was a problem was Lady Inerva.

Shriekwing - 1st attempt
Huntsman - 1st attempt
Sun King - 2nd attempt
Artificer - 2nd attempt
Hungering Destroyer - 1st attempt
Lady Inerva - 5th attempt
The council of blood - 3rd attempt
Sludgefist - 2nd attempt
Stone Legion - 2nd attempt
Sire Denathrius - 3rd attempt

I'm disappointed in the lack of difficulty but do enjoy the fights in terms of mechanics, looking forward to mythics.

im sure you did buddy

[8bithamster]

You're way off base with this one. Cleared it on first day after 4 hours in a PUG. Only boss that was a problem was Lady Inerva.

Shriekwing - 1st attempt
Huntsman - 1st attempt
Sun King - 2nd attempt
Artificer - 2nd attempt
Hungering Destroyer - 1st attempt
Lady Inerva - 5th attempt
The council of blood - 3rd attempt
Sludgefist - 2nd attempt
Stone Legion - 2nd attempt
Sire Denathrius - 3rd attempt

I'm disappointed in the lack of difficulty but do enjoy the fights in terms of mechanics, looking forward to mythics.

Sure you did, and the pope personally called you to congratulate you?

[Marrilaife]

im sure you did buddy

Yep, Limit should recruit that guy, they haven't killed hc Denathrius yet but there's some nebulous pug that downs it in 3 attempts!

[La]

You're way off base with this one. Cleared it on first day after 4 hours in a PUG. Only boss that was a problem was Lady Inerva.

Shriekwing - 1st attempt
Huntsman - 1st attempt
Sun King - 2nd attempt
Artificer - 2nd attempt
Hungering Destroyer - 1st attempt
Lady Inerva - 5th attempt
The council of blood - 3rd attempt
Sludgefist - 2nd attempt
Stone Legion - 2nd attempt
Sire Denathrius - 3rd attempt

I'm disappointed in the lack of difficulty but do enjoy the fights in terms of mechanics, looking forward to mythics.

Amazing that people have to lie about something to justify their point.

[ekn88]

Yep, Limit should recruit that guy, they haven't killed hc Denathrius yet but there's some nebulous pug that downs it in 3 attempts!

We're talking about normal not HC.

[Ten15]

They are making raiding so complex.

Bosses have way too many abilities now. I thought that was what mythic was for. Heroic should be achieveable with a decent pug

There's classic for you if this is too difficult.

[Gib Lover]

Yeah I don't think this tier has too many abilities at all, I think they nailed the balance between downtime and doing mechanics

[VinceVega]

You're way off base with this one. Cleared it on first day after 4 hours in a PUG. Only boss that was a problem was Lady Inerva.

Shriekwing - 1st attempt
Huntsman - 1st attempt
Sun King - 2nd attempt
Artificer - 2nd attempt
Hungering Destroyer - 1st attempt
Lady Inerva - 5th attempt
The council of blood - 3rd attempt
Sludgefist - 2nd attempt
Stone Legion - 2nd attempt
Sire Denathrius - 3rd attempt

I'm disappointed in the lack of difficulty but do enjoy the fights in terms of mechanics, looking forward to mythics.

Although i am ok with the high difficulty i have to agree with the rest here... no way you did that with a normal pug group.
Even Guilds are struggeling.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously PUG will be able to clear it at some point. But their point was that PUG will not be able to clear it when it's relevant content, and I 100% agree with that. There's no way your standard PUG will clear the normal raid with <200ilvl gear if it stays as it is now. Even organized guild groups with full 184+ gear are struggling with it.

I don't think they will take that long. It is not THAT difficult. It is just difficult the first time you see it. Inerva requires probably the most coordination... maybe...
But nothing in it requires actual communication the moment people know what the boss does.

If you do NOT knwo what the boss does you don't deserve to kill it... sorry.... a bit of preperation should be there. In two weeks tops most Pugs will be able to get to the end. This is the progress of people playing in PuGs. Stop asking for hand outs. Enjoy the challenge. It is not undoable!

[KaPe]

I wrote "imho".
Also group of friends can organize in a guild.

And yes normal is MAYBE to hard for now(!!!!). But it is the firts day. everyone is massivly underequipped. In two weeks PuGs will clear it without difficulty..

You're forgetting that Titanforge doesn't exist now and guilds for whom Normal is main difficulty aren't exactly going to get a lot of M+ gear. Their gear won't magically increase by 20 ilvl which could potentially trivialize the raid. There's a single legendary, one item from weekly cache - which probably won't be a high ilvl one considering their main form of content - and some reputation gear... on exalted.

Heroic, sure, people are heavily undergeared. Normal? Not so much.

[VinceVega]

You're forgetting that Titanforge doesn't exist now and guilds for whom Normal is main difficulty aren't exactly going to get a lot of M+ gear. Their gear won't magically increase by 20 ilvl which could potentially trivialize the raid. There's a single legendary, one item from weekly cache - which probably won't be a high ilvl one considering their main form of content - and some reputation gear... on exalted.

Heroic, sure, people are heavily undergeared. Normal? Not so much.

The first bosses in the raid don't need more equip.
They need you to understand the mechanics. Then nearly everything is avoidable.
And those are not hard. Just new. Most of them have never been in a raid or not in the last few expansion.

Like the CC and altimore. Or the triangel on Inerva. It is mostly a do it once and you know it type of stuff

[Rinaul]

Some of these fights are dumb overtuned on normal but you guys could get it done as long as you got enough healers and tanks for your 10 man. It just might take a little longer as 10 man either tends to be highly overtuned or ez undertuned. But if you're willing to stick it out, ya'll can clear everything in due time

- - - Updated - - -

You're way off base with this one. Cleared it on first day after 4 hours in a PUG. Only boss that was a problem was Lady Inerva.

Shriekwing - 1st attempt
Huntsman - 1st attempt
Sun King - 2nd attempt
Artificer - 2nd attempt
Hungering Destroyer - 1st attempt
Lady Inerva - 5th attempt
The council of blood - 3rd attempt
Sludgefist - 2nd attempt
Stone Legion - 2nd attempt
Sire Denathrius - 3rd attempt

I'm disappointed in the lack of difficulty but do enjoy the fights in terms of mechanics, looking forward to mythics.

Logs for these fights?

- - - Updated - - -

Every boss can be outgeared. At some point you can nearly ignore mechanics EXCEPT insta death stuff like the DPS check on Sludgefist and Artificer.

They will clear it. 100%. Just missing gear. And it will not happen this week.

If someone only want to get through the raid without any effort LFR is there for them.

LFR N'Zoth says hi

[JoakimB]

People who clear Mythic raids can normally come into Normal in dungeon blues and clear it in short order.
Because its not balanced around their skill level and its not supposed to.

If the top players are struggling in Normal the people for who Normal is intended are in big big trouble.

Are they really having problems in normal? Not only HC?

[mojusk]

normal and heroic is certainly harder than before, but i dont think its a bad thing. as long as mythic remain at the same difficulty, it was hard enough except for maybe the first couple of bosses.
in previous tiers heroic was way too easy compared to mythic, it was common that several thousands of of guilds cleared week one, meanwhile it took 5 months for for top 1000 to clear mythic

[bigfoot1291]

Are they really having problems in normal? Not only HC?

My guild is by no means like a top 50 or anything, but we killed Mythic Nzoth early June, for reference. It took us about 5 hours to full clear normal on tuesday, Sludgefist was by far the hardest, taking 9 attempts. The rest were 1-4 attempts. It did feel a bit overtuned for normal mode. The Sludge chain in particular is super punishing and has a pretty damn tight dps check for normal mode too.