Poll: Who's Tougher?

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  1. #201
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I don't care? Besides, you're starting to actually sound like a Titan Keeper, ya know that?
    Sweet, I hope it's Odyn, he had a 10/10 beard.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Sargeras also used a nascent titan soul to accomplish his aims, so I'm not entirely sure how that is a mark for one and not the other. And while Sargeras was close--I don't refute that at all--he was more than mere minutes away from annihilating all life in the universe, whereas Zovaal was in the process of completing his domination of all of creation; he'd have more than just a Dark Pantheon in that event.
    Tbf here, after SL, would you really consider Argus to be a soul under "his" grasp anymore? Seems more like Sargeras got hamfisted by multiple dudes here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Sweet, I hope it's Odyn, he had a 10/10 beard.
    Well, that's 1 thing we agree on haha. But yeah.

  3. #203
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Sargeras also used a nascent titan soul to accomplish his aims, so I'm not entirely sure how that is a mark for one and not the other. And while Sargeras was close--I don't refute that at all--he was more than mere minutes away from annihilating all life in the universe, whereas Zovaal was in the process of completing his domination of all of creation; he'd have more than just a Dark Pantheon in that event.
    It's slightly different. Sargeras was using Argus as a battery to expedite the return of the Legion's demons, whereas Zovaal literally couldn't proceed without Azeroth (i.e.: Zovaal required the power of a Titan to fulfill his plans, whereas Sargeras was collecting them for other purposes). The main problem is that we're still not 100% sure what his plan was with the Dark Pantheon, other than to keep them from the other cosmic forces.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It's slightly different. Sargeras was using Argus as a battery to expedite the return of the Legion's demons, whereas Zovaal literally couldn't proceed without Azeroth (i.e.: Zovaal required the power of a Titan to fulfill his plans, whereas Sargeras was collecting them for other purposes). The main problem is that we're still not 100% sure what his plan was with the Dark Pantheon, other than to keep them from the other cosmic forces.
    Ehhh, even then, I'd argue Sargeras kinda needed Argus regardless, the "End of All Things" requires Death's involvement for Argus, even with Sargeras' better judgement tryna suggest otherwise likely lol

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    The Dreadlords had Sargeras in a bind from the start, sadly.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Sweet, I hope it's Odyn, he had a 10/10 beard.
    Fun little lore tidbit Odyn didn't used to have a beard but got smashed in the face by Ragnaros's hammer causing a Scar of Elemental fire!

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Both ultimately had the same goal: remake the cosmos. Sargeras was going about it by destroying everything and hoping life would again take root in the future, while Zovaal was using the Sepulchur to accomplish the same thing. Zovaal nearly succeeded, while Sargeras still had numerous worlds to go, including one he had failed to destroy three times? Four times? It's hard to keep track of his failures when it comes to Azeroth.



    To be fair, the Jailer was about to reshape everything. Sargeras had almost as long to accomplish his goal and was still farther away. While I would give pure, immediate power to Sargeras in a heartbeat, Zovaal so far has been at least equally--if not more--dangerous than Sargeras. The big difference is Zovaal is dead, while Sargeras is not, so who's more powerful at this point is no longer in question.
    I agree, but that further gets across the point about the distinction between threat and power. Sargeras is exponentially more powerful than the Bald Man on a personal level, but the threat posed by the Bald Man, i.e the actual results of his actions are comparable to the risk posed by Sargeras or higher. It's also why N'zoth is in a similar ballpark, @TheFirstOnes. If N'zoth succeeds and possesses the world soul, a Void Titan comes up which is what Sargeras was doing all this bs to prevent and afterwards everyone dies/turns into part of the Warp or whatever the fuck the Void Lords have in mind. Hence, both N'zoth and the Bald Man are higher 'threats' in that the results of their actions are bigger than if Sargeras was left to destroy the planet.

    Of course, this makes no meaningful difference for us, since everything past the planet being destroyed is already a loss condition since we live on it.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  7. #207
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felrane View Post
    Fun little lore tidbit Odyn didn't used to have a beard but got smashed in the face by Ragnaros's hammer causing a Scar of Elemental fire!
    The Legend of Odyn is genuinely one of the best in-game stories. As much fun as he is to hate because of all his bad decisions, anyone would have a hard time calling Odyn boring.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  8. #208
    Sargeras would fuck the Jailer up the ass

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The Legend of Odyn is genuinely one of the best in-game stories. As much fun as he is to hate because of all his bad decisions, anyone would have a hard time calling Odyn boring.
    It's one of the few times they've done unreliable narrators right. His personal retcon for what happened to Helya is also great characterization by proxy, the deal with his eye built up Shadowlands better than Shadowlands built itself and the beard one is just fun.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #210
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Blizzard never said this? Also, only reason Sargeras ever won that battle to begin with was cause A. ALL THE TITANS HAVE NATURAL FEL WEAKNESSES AND WERE BATTLING THE DARK TITAN AT A DAMN FEL PLANET...WHICH GAVE HIM THE CLEAR ADVANTAGE BTW!

    And B, and by golly cause I can't say it enough fucking times already. HE WAS THEIR CHAMPION AND MOST POWERFUL GUY, MIXED WITH THE FACT THAT THE OTHER TITANS CANNOT FIGHT ON THAT SCALE, AND HAD JUST LOST AGGRAMAR, I WOULD IMAGINE THEY DID ABOUT AS WELL AS ANYONE ELSE COULD'VE FUCKING DONE AT THE TIME!!!

    It's like how the Primus is just a better combatant overall and led the other Eternal Ones against the Arbiter (Zovaal), because he was the only one that knew the clear ways of beating someone with that much apparent "wisdom" and whatnot. He legit made Domination to begin with...and everyone knows how fucking insane Domination is when used to its fullest potential (Tsk tsk, look at SL people).

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    He legit was only going to remake the Dark Beyond, not the other Powers and whatnot on the scale of Zovaal. Calm down with the Antorus stuff there buddy. As for Zovaal requiring Azeroth...

    Yeah, with the potential Azeroth has...who wouldn't want that? Even Sargeras got enraptured by it, which is...a bit creepy but whatever.
    More caps please. They did say that eveyrthing we face is much stronger then before so i assume he is. Maybe i did miss smth.

  11. #211
    Looks like there's one zealous mawsworn here lol

  12. #212
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    Sargeras is in jail.
    And the jailer is dead
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  13. #213
    Zovaal's Domination Magic <- Not even able to completely dominate even one boy king. Blocked by a shiny helmet made from recycled Lich King's helm. Neutralized by the magic missiles of the world soul of Azeroth.

    How dare you try to dominate Sargeras with this?
    Last edited by olddog; 2022-04-06 at 07:21 AM.

  14. #214
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Less about the power of the being specifically, and more-so the things the Champions had when facing those types of beings. The Champions had a pretty whacky arsenal with them by the time they faced Zovaal.
    That too. I cannot take Zovaal seriously if I consider that all it took was getting the Crown of Wills to neutralize his ultimate weapon. it's like if you get the Coat of Fel Removing and then Sargeras is powerless.
    Even worse if you consider that domination magic was made by the Primus, not even by Zovaal.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    That too. I cannot take Zovaal seriously if I consider that all it took was getting the Crown of Wills to neutralize his ultimate weapon.
    I haven't done the raid, could you explain what it does? Something akin to the shadowflame cape?

  16. #216
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    I haven't done the raid, could you explain what it does? Something akin to the shadowflame cape?
    You get it while questing in Zereth Mortis. It makes one resistant to domination, so it's the MacGuffin used to get close to the Jailer without being mind controlled. After you defeat Anduin, he comments that the jailer has rigged the consoles to dominate anyone that uses them, so that is why, lorewise, the three last bosses are separate from the rest.

    It is similar to N'zoth's cloak. But it is kind of an overused gimmick, and since the Jailer isn't really menacing otherwise, his character suffers from it imo.

  17. #217
    It's not even a real equippable item, just a quest item that makes a big glowy ring and boom you're immune to domination magic
    The greater the light, the darker the shadow. And this light casts a shadow over all I see - the Prophet Velen, when asked what's next for Blizzard

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    That too. I cannot take Zovaal seriously if I consider that all it took was getting the Crown of Wills to neutralize his ultimate weapon. it's like if you get the Coat of Fel Removing and then Sargeras is powerless.
    Even worse if you consider that domination magic was made by the Primus, not even by Zovaal.
    True lol. Its pretty funny that Zovaals biggest "creations", for which he is best known (Domination magic and the Lich King)...werent actually created by him at all lmao.
    Domination - Primus's idea
    Helm of Domination - Primus's idea
    Mourneblades - Primus's idea
    The Jailer truly did nothing himself. All "he" accomplished relied on others. Primus creating super dangerous things, Denathrius and his Nathrezim doing shady shit, Sylvanas being an idiot, Azeroth being super-omegalul powerful.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

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  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    Zovaal's Domination Magic <- Not even able to completely dominate even one boy king. Blocked by a shiny helmet made from recycled Lich King's helm. Neutralized by the magic missiles of the world soul of Azeroth.

    How dare you try to dominate Sargeras with this?
    Tbf here, Anduin's kinda supposed to be anti-Arthas, meaning he's naturally gifted to not fall underneath that same path, hell his potential alone is much greater than an average humans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    That too. I cannot take Zovaal seriously if I consider that all it took was getting the Crown of Wills to neutralize his ultimate weapon. it's like if you get the Coat of Fel Removing and then Sargeras is powerless.
    Even worse if you consider that domination magic was made by the Primus, not even by Zovaal.
    Or it's like facing Sargeras at the Plane of Order or summ, where his Fel Powers are at their lowest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    True lol. Its pretty funny that Zovaals biggest "creations", for which he is best known (Domination magic and the Lich King)...werent actually created by him at all lmao.
    Domination - Primus's idea
    Helm of Domination - Primus's idea
    Mourneblades - Primus's idea
    The Jailer truly did nothing himself. All "he" accomplished relied on others. Primus creating super dangerous things, Denathrius and his Nathrezim doing shady shit, Sylvanas being an idiot, Azeroth being super-omegalul powerful.
    Also note that Zovaal's more-so a puppeteer, rather than an actual warlord or something like that, much like how Palpatine was in Star Wars.

  20. #220
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    The unseen First Ones that made the machine that made the Jailer seems more like a better thing to compare with Sargeras than the Jailer on a raw power scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    True lol. Its pretty funny that Zovaals biggest "creations", for which he is best known (Domination magic and the Lich King)...werent actually created by him at all lmao.
    Domination - Primus's idea
    Helm of Domination - Primus's idea
    Mourneblades - Primus's idea
    That's why the "Primus is actually the mastermind theory" is compelling.

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