Poll: Who's Tougher?

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  1. #221
    Let's not try to compare the First Ones with Titans. I really don't want to get into that debate now.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Let's not try to compare the First Ones with Titans. I really don't want to get into that debate now.
    For me the birthed from a planet guy seems bigger than the manufactured robot on the fritz guy is all.

  3. #223
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    My working hypothesis is that the Eternal Ones as a pantheon (in this case as a group) are the equal of a given Titan in terms of raw power, but a single Eternal One like the Jailer/Zovaal or the Primus is not. There's a lot of different information out there concerning this whole Titan/Titan++ categorization, but that's my take on it.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My working hypothesis is that the Eternal Ones as a pantheon (in this case as a group) are the equal of a given Titan in terms of raw power, but a single Eternal One like the Jailer/Zovaal or the Primus is not. There's a lot of different information out there concerning this whole Titan/Titan++ categorization, but that's my take on it.
    I think that's a weird take tbh, especially when you consider different Pantheons have different powers and gifts entire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    For me the birthed from a planet guy seems bigger than the manufactured robot on the fritz guy is all.
    Nothing implies Titans weren't just manufactured World-Soul Seeds or something like that, sent out into the Great Dark. We'll know the truth when we enter Zereth Ordos.

  5. #225
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I think that's a weird take tbh, especially when you consider different Pantheons have different powers and gifts entire.
    Not sure why different pantheons would matter here? Of course, not all pantheons in the WoW cosmos are made equal, but we're just talking about the combined power of the Eternal Ones vs. the power of any specific Titan (e.g. Aman'thul, Sargeras, Aggramar, etc.)
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not sure why different pantheons would matter here? Of course, not all pantheons in the WoW cosmos are made equal, but we're just talking about the combined power of the Eternal Ones vs. the power of any specific Titan (e.g. Aman'thul, Sargeras, Aggramar, etc.)
    Well, they are made equal, but they are given different gifts to represent their respective power more. I think POWER WISE, someone like the Primus or Defender Sargeras would prolly be equal in tactical prowess and whatnot, or maybe Sargeras would be more physically powerful. Someone like Aman'thul could have better control over time, but he would very easily succumb to beings more physically powerful than him from another Pantheon, or in an area outside of the reaches of Order.

  7. #227
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Eh depeneds if they still consider Zovaal a Titan++ still, which I don't think is necessarily the case anymore since every force has some sort of Pantheon behind it, and Order being one of these Pantheons essentially, why would one be weaker or stronger then the other? That would be a flawed design...I think a large part of Shadowlands was re-written quite frankly. So I'd say Zovaal is most likely on the same power level as Sargeras if he would've achieved his goal at The Sepulcher he could've been stronger but he failed... I think the only thing that made Zovaal seem stronger was Domination magic which wasn't even his own magic!
    Last edited by Evaddon; 2022-04-06 at 05:39 PM.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Also note that Zovaal's more-so a puppeteer, rather than an actual warlord or something like that, much like how Palpatine was in Star Wars.
    That would imply he planned everything from the start, which isnt the case.
    He isnt really a puppeteer, not in the way Palpatine was. Hes more an opportunist, who used whatever possibilities opened up.
    He threw out as many hooks as possible (Nathrezim, Lich King, Sylvanas) in the hopes that at least one of those things would eventually work in his favour. And since he had an infinite amount of time, something did eventually work out.
    The Lich Kings failed, since all of them told him to fck off.
    The Nathrezim inside the Legion failed, since Sargeras got *this* close to either killing or fel-corrupting Azeroth, which wouldve ruined his plan (remember, he needed Azeroth as a battery)
    Sylvanas is the one that eventually worked out. But even she wasnt really his first choice, he only turned to her bc none of the Lich Kings cared about him.
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  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post

    Nothing implies Titans weren't just manufactured World-Soul Seeds or something like that, sent out into the Great Dark. We'll know the truth when we enter Zereth Ordos.
    That would be a bummer. I like the seemingly natural awakening vibe.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    That would be a bummer. I like the seemingly natural awakening vibe.
    Considering the entire Warcraft Cosmos feels more "Artificial" now, with the First Ones, the Protoforges, the Cosmic Forces apparently being more-so advanced "machines" in a bigger design, etc...

    Yeah, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Eh depeneds if they still consider Zovaal a Titan++ still, which I don't think is necessarily the case anymore since every force has some sort of Pantheon behind it, and Order being one of these Pantheons essentially, why would one be weaker or stronger then the other? That would be a flawed design...I think a large part of Shadowlands was re-written quite frankly. So I'd say Zovaal is most likely on the same power level as Sargeras if he would've achieved his goal at The Sepulcher he could've been stronger but he failed... I think the only thing that made Zovaal seem stronger was Domination magic which wasn't even his own magic!
    I simply compare Zovaal as Death Sargeras but without the size, nor the natural muscle nor combative talent/fel amps, and more-so the adaptation and long-term planning which simply worked out in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    That would imply he planned everything from the start, which isnt the case.
    He isnt really a puppeteer, not in the way Palpatine was. Hes more an opportunist, who used whatever possibilities opened up.
    He threw out as many hooks as possible (Nathrezim, Lich King, Sylvanas) in the hopes that at least one of those things would eventually work in his favour. And since he had an infinite amount of time, something did eventually work out.
    The Lich Kings failed, since all of them told him to fck off.
    The Nathrezim inside the Legion failed, since Sargeras got *this* close to either killing or fel-corrupting Azeroth, which wouldve ruined his plan (remember, he needed Azeroth as a battery)
    Sylvanas is the one that eventually worked out. But even she wasnt really his first choice, he only turned to her bc none of the Lich Kings cared about him.
    Oh no...

    Someone didn't read the Sylvanas novel. I'm so sorry. If you thought Zovaal's planning skills were bullshit before...uh oh.

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    Hell, the Sargeras stuff was legit one of Zovaal's PROPHECIES LOL

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Considering the entire Warcraft Cosmos feels more "Artificial" now, with the First Ones, the Protoforges, the Cosmic Forces apparently being more-so advanced "machines" in a bigger design, etc...

    Yeah, sorry.
    I'm withholding judgement until more Zereths come into play or the whole thing is ignored.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    I'm withholding judgement until more Zereths come into play or the whole thing is ignored.
    It's already been hinted at. It's something that's gonna be milked hard.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My working hypothesis is that the Eternal Ones as a pantheon (in this case as a group) are the equal of a given Titan in terms of raw power, but a single Eternal One like the Jailer/Zovaal or the Primus is not. There's a lot of different information out there concerning this whole Titan/Titan++ categorization, but that's my take on it.
    The Keeper comparison seems fair. Very powerful, immortal if left on their own, with a measure of the power of the force that created them, but not physical gods in any sense, a mortal can conceivably kill or harm them, like how Lei Shen beat up Ra-den or how Anduin can wound Kyrestia/we can beat Denathrius and the Jailer. The sigils are the more literal inheritance of their creators than the Keepers' more vague buff by the Titans but the same principle applies.
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  14. #234
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I simply compare Zovaal as Death Sargeras but without the size, nor the natural muscle nor combative talent/fel amps, and more-so the adaptation and long-term planning which simply worked out in the end.
    Essentially, he was just discount Sargeras that had more of a "plan", while Sargeras was just going to destroy everything and simply hope for the best with no real thought to what comes after...that's why I'm pissed they just tossed Zovaal to the way side he had the makings to be an interesting Villain but instead of using that and building upon that they tossed him in the bin with no further detail and exploration of the character...Shadowlands is truly disappointing because it is filled to the BRIM with wasted potential , and that's what hurts the most this Expansion honestly could've lead to some interesting things!

    They either should've let Zovaal win or had him escape in some fashion!!!!!

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Considering the entire Warcraft Cosmos feels more "Artificial" now, with the First Ones, the Protoforges, the Cosmic Forces apparently being more-so advanced "machines" in a bigger design, etc...

    Yeah, sorry.

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    I simply compare Zovaal as Death Sargeras but without the size, nor the natural muscle nor combative talent/fel amps, and more-so the adaptation and long-term planning which simply worked out in the end.

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    Oh no...

    Someone didn't read the Sylvanas novel. I'm so sorry. If you thought Zovaal's planning skills were bullshit before...uh oh.

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    Hell, the Sargeras stuff was legit one of Zovaal's PROPHECIES LOL
    nice try, but i actually did read the thing
    still doesnt change much. yeah, he knew sargeras would stab azeroth, that doesnt change what happened before. he originally wanted to use the LK, and considered all 3 "failures" bc they defied him, so he had to go with sylvanas.
    and the fact that he somehow predicted the stabbing doesnt make sense, considering sargeras decided to stab her only in the split second he had, when he realized he was being pulled in. and even if zovaal SOMEHOW knew sargeras would make that decision, after SOMEHOW knowing we killed argus, that sword couldve just as easily killed azeroth.
    the entire thing doesnt make an ounce of sense. zovaal cant see the future, otherwise he wouldve known that letting us go at multiple points during SL would be his eventual downfall.
    Last edited by Houle; 2022-04-06 at 10:46 PM.
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  16. #236
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Keeper comparison seems fair. Very powerful, immortal if left on their own, with a measure of the power of the force that created them, but not physical gods in any sense, a mortal can conceivably kill or harm them, like how Lei Shen beat up Ra-den or how Anduin can wound Kyrestia/we can beat Denathrius and the Jailer. The sigils are the more literal inheritance of their creators than the Keepers' more vague buff by the Titans but the same principle applies.
    I wouldn't go that far. During the encounter with Zovaal, he is attacking Azeroth and was fully capable of killing her if he was not stopped, albeit with Azeroth still being dormant and unable to retaliate. The problem is likely the same that happens to many powerful characters we face, especially spellcasters. For instance, we knew characters like Archimonde and Kil'jaeden are able to wield magics that can devastate planets and could have done so to Azeroth at any time, likely killing the PCs in the process, but weren't able to display these powers and essentially have to be "nerfed" in our encounters with them to make their defeats more plausible (imagine an Archimonde encounter where he teleports off world and simply summons the meteors he was planning on using to destroy Draenor). All-in-all, Zovaal is likely far above the Keepers but also far below the Titans, but exactly where he is in the hierarchy is difficult to say given his lack of feats, many of his known accomplishments being due to what he was able to take from others (i.e.: domination magic, mourneblades, etc.), and a mixure of both his own failures (unable to dominate Anduin; his magic was undone by sheer force of will) and those of his Eternal One counterparts (Anduin being able to easily overpower the Archon while not himself being very powerful).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    the entire thing doesnt make an ounce of sense. zovaal cant see the future, otherwise he wouldve known that letting us go at multiple points during SL would be his eventual downfall.
    I think everyone is in agreement that Zovaal's "perfect planning" of everything in the Warcraft franchise is bullshit from the narrative team. What it took for Sargeras to even stab Azeroth was a series of random happenstances that concluded in the event. Consider that for Sargeras to stab Azeroth, Illidan needed to use the Sargerite Keystone to open the rift, which required Kil'jaeden to retreat to his flagship, which required Sargeras to antagonize Kil'jaeden and goad him into action, which required us to defeat Gul'dan and invade the Tomb of Sargeras, which required us to defeat Archimonde, which required us to release Gul'dan after going to an alternate dimension to fight one angry Orcish boy, etc. It literally beggars belief how stupid the prophecies are.

    If I were to hazard a really out-there guess as to how Zovaal knew about what would happen, I would assume he made a deal with a Void entity that was able to show him glimpses of a possible future, as we know that the Void has been able to provide accurate prophecies before and would explain how the Old Gods knew of Deaths involvement. Though, that said, this is wholly unsupported speculation.
    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2022-04-07 at 03:29 AM.
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  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    nice try, but i actually did read the thing
    still doesnt change much. yeah, he knew sargeras would stab azeroth, that doesnt change what happened before. he originally wanted to use the LK, and considered all 3 "failures" bc they defied him, so he had to go with sylvanas.
    and the fact that he somehow predicted the stabbing doesnt make sense, considering sargeras decided to stab her only in the split second he had, when he realized he was being pulled in. and even if zovaal SOMEHOW knew sargeras would make that decision, after SOMEHOW knowing we killed argus, that sword couldve just as easily killed azeroth.
    the entire thing doesnt make an ounce of sense. zovaal cant see the future, otherwise he wouldve known that letting us go at multiple points during SL would be his eventual downfall.
    Yeah, like you said, the failures still happened, but that doesn't discount anything else. Gives Arthas more of a say in future debates actually, regarding mind hax resistance.

    "the entire thing doesnt make an ounce of sense. zovaal cant see the future, otherwise he wouldve known that letting us go at multiple points during SL would be his eventual downfall." Either Zovaal played a VERY crazy prediction game, or he can see into the future in SOME sense. Also note that they write almost every 'smart" villain like a bozo, and canonically they still have to lose to the Players or else there'd be no game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Keeper comparison seems fair. Very powerful, immortal if left on their own, with a measure of the power of the force that created them, but not physical gods in any sense, a mortal can conceivably kill or harm them, like how Lei Shen beat up Ra-den or how Anduin can wound Kyrestia/we can beat Denathrius and the Jailer. The sigils are the more literal inheritance of their creators than the Keepers' more vague buff by the Titans but the same principle applies.
    "a mortal can conceivably kill or harm them" I mean...*Looks at Argus, and how Broxigar gave Sargeras a wound, a small cut, but still a cut nonetheless* that's not hard to do when infused with the powers of Death itself.

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    "How Anduin can wound Kyrestia/we can beat Denathrius and the Jailer." Very different scenarios on every end.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I wouldn't go that far. During the encounter with Zovaal, he is attacking Azeroth and was fully capable of killing her if he was not stopped, albeit with Azeroth still being dormant and unable to retaliate. The problem is likely the same that happens to many powerful characters we face, especially spellcasters. For instance, we knew characters like Archimonde and Kil'jaeden are able to wield magics that can devastate planets and could have done so to Azeroth at any time, likely killing the PCs in the process, but weren't able to display these powers and essentially have to be "nerfed" in our encounters with them to make their defeats more plausible (imagine an Archimonde encounter where he teleports off world and simply summons the meteors he was planning on using to destroy Draenor). All-in-all, Zovaal is likely far above the Keepers but also far below the Titans, but exactly where he is in the hierarchy is difficult to say given his lack of feats, many of his known accomplishments being due to what he was able to take from others (i.e.: domination magic, mourneblades, etc.), and a mixure of both his own failures (unable to dominate Anduin; his magic was undone by sheer force of will) and those of his Eternal One counterparts (Anduin being able to easily overpower the Archon while not himself being very powerful).
    As regards the Jailer being able to bash Azeroth to death with his mace if left unattended, he isn't hitting the planet or fighting an avatar. What he's hitting is whatever of her essence is being primed at the Sepulcher while it's simultaneously channeled through machines made for shredding souls and over the course of the encounter the various control rods further have him tilt the field in terms of imposing his will on her. The dude is using tools to pull it off. Algalon can press a button to activate the Halls of Origination and fry the world, so can the Amathet in BFA who'd be imposing Ny'alotha on it with it, but we wouldn't say that Algalon or those rando Tol'vir are exceptionally powerful because of it. The Bald Man is using more powerful tools, with far more setup to pull off basically that on a larger scale.

    I generally agree with the KJ/Archimonde wizard comparison, but with them the idea is that they're directly destructive with their skillset. The Jailer on the other hand avoids direct fights whenever possible. We never see him stick around and fight and when he does fight, it's usually a stacked affair until he does whatever he needs to do, i.e steal the Primus's sigil, get his own sigil back from the Arbiter, ambush the Primus in the first place etc. Even the end fight only takes place because we're immune to being MC'd, else we can safely assume he'd just MC us like he did the Bland Gang and carry on with his plan which doesn't require him to directly combat anything either. If the Bald Man had a personality at all, this'd also gel with him personality-wise. His formative incident isn't smiting the entire rest of the Pantheon with one swipe after millennia fighting demons, it's being defeated in combat by his siblings, the Primus especially, after a very passive job judging souls. As a torturer, he's primarily acting on those who're already unable to defend themselves. There's no implication he's experienced at fighting, enjoys fighting or strives to be good at it. Instead, with domination especially, but with pretty much everything he relies on co-opted powers in order to avoid the need to fight at all. Even his raid fight is heavily based on this, with his control over the pillars, mind control and the threat of bashing Azeroth to death all being major elements along with him actually being a big guy who hits you over the head.

    He's still powerful because he's a demigod, who's also stolen a bit of the powers of other demigods, but so were Keepers, those guys fought the Old Gods on foot as well.

    @TheFirstOnes @Houle @Magical Mudcrab

    Honestly, the easiest way to explain it would be precognition/fate manipulation and I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard didn't just bite the bullet with this considering fate is a major element of both the SL plot and earlier plots, Cata's dragon bs especially. Aman'thul, who can see into the future infused a portion of his power into Odyn, and wouldn't you know it, the Bald Man traded Odyn for his eye. The Lich King is already set up to be precognitive, what with KT saying that Ner'zhul chose Arthas as his champion before the Scourge was made.

    Even putting that aside, the Jailer has a literal plot device in Torghast where later, a guy directly called a Fatebinder who's description says he's 'writing a new fate' uses it to manipulate fate. Of his predictions, two are under his control - Sylvanas destroying the helm and what Mueh'zala tells Vol'jin, one is readily obvious - that the Legion will return to Azeroth, that azerite exists and will flow, what with his plan being based on it, but the one with the sword is so retarded and insanely specific that the only way it can possibly be excused is the use of contrivances. Contrivances that Blizzard do actually have readily available, but never spell out, so this is left as headcanon.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-04-07 at 08:17 AM.
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  19. #239
    Pressing the nuke button doesn't mean you're as powerful as a nuke.
    Last edited by olddog; 2022-04-07 at 09:04 AM.

  20. #240
    Wouldn't at all be fate manip. But it would be a pretty crazy sense of Precog, yes. Also, once again, comparing the Eternals with Titanic Keepers would be like comparing Aman'Thul or Norgannon with fucking Krexus. That's not how it works. Titan Watchers/Keepers simply forged Azeroth's Seas, Mountains, etc, and led the Titanforged, they never ruled or did anything beyond that. The Eternal Ones rule over the SHADOWLANDS, which is literally infinite in size, and the Realms we've seen apparently aren't even the entirety of those realms. They're Death's variant of any other Cosmic Pantheon. They are made differently, they have different gifts/skillsets, etc. But they're still comparable to the Titans in hierarchy.

    Also, you can say the only reason Zovaal ever really...does that to begin with, I.E avoiding everyone is simply the same reason why Sargeras wouldn't fight us in Antorus, he doesn't acknowledge our presence and is just aiming to achieve his goals as soon as possible.

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    "His formative incident isn't smiting the entire rest of the Pantheon with one swipe after millennia fighting demons, it's being defeated in combat by his siblings"

    Tbf here, Sargeras can get yeeted into imprisonment by a damn ritual, and in the initial battle against the Titans, they had like 2-3 things going against them, so it's not like it was fair regardless.

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    Also, I'm sure Blizzard did bite the bullet with it. Hell, p sure his legit reasoning for why he gave Sylvanas for prophecies was BECAUSE he wanted to show her just how unfair fate and inevitability here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    Pressing the nuke button doesn't mean you're as powerful as a nuke.
    There's that, and then there's legit absorbing the nuke's energy/power to become it essentially.

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    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fatescribe_Roh-Kalo This is a being with Fate Manipulation.

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    Like I said, Keepers suck, especially Old God corrupted ones lol

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    "You are bound by fate" Nah...

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