Investing in the stock market

[Forogil]

Hey, much to the chagrin of a great many of our math teachers, we all literally carry a calculator in our pockets everywhere we go!

Though for reals, there are other more immediate and practical limits, like the fact that you have a limit on the number of transactions per second that appears to be <10 from what I can tell (it varies, but estimates are in the single digits). And it takes far longer to clear/complete, apparently up to 10 minutes?

And the price of bitcoin change about 1% during those 10 minutes.

vs. banks/credit cards that can clear thousands of transactions per second without issue and is nearly instant.

And they just take seconds to clear at the checkout.

[Zan15]

Hey, much to the chagrin of a great many of our math teachers, we all literally carry a calculator in our pockets everywhere we go!

Though for reals, there are other more immediate and practical limits, like the fact that you have a limit on the number of transactions per second that appears to be <10 from what I can tell (it varies, but estimates are in the single digits). And it takes far longer to clear/complete, apparently up to 10 minutes?

vs. banks/credit cards that can clear thousands of transactions per second without issue and is nearly instant.

well unless you are trying to deposit my paycheck, for some reason takes 3 days to clear ;P


so companies need to front the bitcoin value in order to process transactions timely which is an added huge risk with the volatility of bitcoin. Based on today it could be as much as a few thousand dollars in just a few minutes difference.

yup def going to replace the dollar, Yen and yuan.

[Edge-]

well unless you are trying to deposit my paycheck, for some reason takes 3 days to clear ;P


so companies need to front the bitcoin value in order to process transactions timely which is an added huge risk with the volatility of bitcoin. Based on today it could be as much as a few thousand dollars in just a few minutes difference.

yup def going to replace the dollar, Yen and yuan.

"I'm sorry sir, but in the time it took to process your payment the .00000000876234 bitcoins you paid no longer covers the cost of the meal, let alone tip. With the 1.2% drop in the past 10 minutes we now require a payment of .00000000876244 bitcoins, please re-approve this charge and pray that the rates don't change while we process this next transaction.

[gondrin]

as for taxes, well, this concept is foreign to bitcoin itself, however it changes nothing on the tax policy of a country (or on your personal wealth); if you have to pay a tax, you shall pay a tax regardless of accumulating wealth through dollar, euro, gold, bitcoin, at least that's how I see it. if you decide not to pay taxes, you will face legal consequences, regardless if your money is in dollar, bitcoin or whatever. I believe taxes will always have to be mainly paid with the national currency. money is an important factor of a local economy, and part of its culture too.

Then this is why Bitcoin will never be adopted as a general all purpose currency like quite a few people want to believe it will be. The dollar, euro or whatever will still be king at the end of the day and Bitcoin will be treated like gold. An investment tool and a store of value, nothing more.

not being able to generate more bitcoin is a strength for everyone to me: assuming this project succeeds, not only it makes the system more fair, but creating money is devaluing the impacted currency which pushes for consumption, which is a disaster in terms of waste; with bitcoin existing in parallel, you have an incentive to think more before spending, lowering demand, lowering production, lowering waste. it also allows people to save, and even get a bit more "wealth" over time by doing so. naturally if you own an asset that appreciates in value, and can't be created out of thin air, there will no longer be any perpetual debt issues. we saw that the current system isn't sustainable, debts can't be paid back, that's because the system is flawed, because we humans are flawed, we don't pay debts as we should and it won't change anytime soon. our current system is an inflationary spiral that needs to be reimagined.

While I do agree with trying to lower waste(recycle more), when you do lower demand, you are also asking for people to be put out of work as without a demand to be there in the first place, there wouldn't be a job. This is fine in a post scarcity society or something of that nature but not one in a capitalistic nature. However, it won't make it more fair unless can combat the whole hoarding part of it. If you have anyone in a system with a hard limit on what can go in that system start to hoard the resource for trade, all you are doing is dividing what everyone else has to a smaller and smaller fraction. Hoarding in any currency based system is bad but the average person will see that what they have will get smaller and question that. At least with a standard currency like the dollar, there are ways to combat this.

so from a societal point of view, with all the automation happening, that looks like a fairly sane starting point for a new and fair economy. the solution isn't to seek more taxes, it's to seek less taxes.

So, what happens to those who do the jobs that get paid from taxes. I'm not talking about politicians. I'm talking about road crews that salt the roads or fix them. The ones that fix city water mains. The ones that collect trash in places where the city itself is the trash collector. The ones that guard the prison(not the for profit ones) that do house rapists and murderers. Would you tell them that over time, they are going to be paid less and less? Would you like to be told in your job that over time, you will be paid a smaller and smaller number? Because that is what happens when you keep adding a decimal place to anything that is used as a currency that has a hard limit. You run into the biggest problem with it. Instead of having a number that grows to an infinitely large amount, it goes the other way to an infinitely small amount which doesn't resolve any issues but adds new ones.

- - - Updated - - -

"I'm sorry sir, but in the time it took to process your payment the .00000000876234 bitcoins you paid no longer covers the cost of the meal, let alone tip. With the 1.2% drop in the past 10 minutes we now require a payment of .00000000876244 bitcoins, please re-approve this charge and pray that the rates don't change while we process this next transaction.

That is one of the biggest problems with crypto. If the value of the dollar goes up or down, it doesn't change what the good in the store will cost me. It only affects if I buy something that is made in another country. If the value of crypto goes up or down, it affects the whole system that is based on it. Funny thing is, as much as crypto bugs don't want to admit it, if Bitcoin or any other form of crypto weren't tied to the dollar as a means of value, their whole system falls on its face.

I ask all crypto bugs once again, what can .01 bitcoin buy me in a store?

[Themius]

Hey, much to the chagrin of a great many of our math teachers, we all literally carry a calculator in our pockets everywhere we go!

Though for reals, there are other more immediate and practical limits, like the fact that you have a limit on the number of transactions per second that appears to be <10 from what I can tell (it varies, but estimates are in the single digits). And it takes far longer to clear/complete, apparently up to 10 minutes?

vs. banks/credit cards that can clear thousands of transactions per second without issue and is nearly instant.

This is why there is bigger hope in other coins like cardano.

On the same day they hit second eth fees were 25 million while cardano us both fast and cheap with fees for the day if about 6k

- - - Updated - - -

"I'm sorry sir, but in the time it took to process your payment the .00000000876234 bitcoins you paid no longer covers the cost of the meal, let alone tip. With the 1.2% drop in the past 10 minutes we now require a payment of .00000000876244 bitcoins, please re-approve this charge and pray that the rates don't change while we process this next transaction.

I think there are two coins tied to the dollar

[Cæli]

Then this is why Bitcoin will never be adopted as a general all purpose currency like quite a few people want to believe it will be. The dollar, euro or whatever will still be king at the end of the day and Bitcoin will be treated like gold. An investment tool and a store of value, nothing more.



While I do agree with trying to lower waste(recycle more), when you do lower demand, you are also asking for people to be put out of work as without a demand to be there in the first place, there wouldn't be a job. This is fine in a post scarcity society or something of that nature but not one in a capitalistic nature. However, it won't make it more fair unless can combat the whole hoarding part of it. If you have anyone in a system with a hard limit on what can go in that system start to hoard the resource for trade, all you are doing is dividing what everyone else has to a smaller and smaller fraction. Hoarding in any currency based system is bad but the average person will see that what they have will get smaller and question that. At least with a standard currency like the dollar, there are ways to combat this.



So, what happens to those who do the jobs that get paid from taxes. I'm not talking about politicians. I'm talking about road crews that salt the roads or fix them. The ones that fix city water mains. The ones that collect trash in places where the city itself is the trash collector. The ones that guard the prison(not the for profit ones) that do house rapists and murderers. Would you tell them that over time, they are going to be paid less and less? Would you like to be told in your job that over time, you will be paid a smaller and smaller number? Because that is what happens when you keep adding a decimal place to anything that is used as a currency that has a hard limit. You run into the biggest problem with it. Instead of having a number that grows to an infinitely large amount, it goes the other way to an infinitely small amount which doesn't resolve any issues but adds new ones.

"Then this is why Bitcoin" > if bitcoin grows, I see no reason why it won't be used as a "base" currency: it's neutral, who except the usa enjoys that the dollar is the "world" currency nowadays? I mean, there's not even a debate here I think. I think national currencies won't ever go away though, but what do I know

"While I do agree with" > if you lower demand, you lower some jobs that are not yet automated, true. but are we advocating for people working in useless jobs to create useless things, just for the sake of it? that doesn't sound like right, and creates waste like I said. just recycling is not at all enough, we need to stop wasting resources for things we don't truly need.
people shall 1.be able to save money 2.work if they want more money 3.be helped by the state in extreme cases if someone's situation is critical (no house, no food, etc). to me bitcoin, if it succeeds, will help in applying those 3 rules, especially the first, it's so important that people can save money, so that they don't get chained to having to live paycheck to paycheck to survive. if a person is unable to survive by himself, bitcoin or euro or dollar, the issue is the same, and the result the same: someone shall help him in my opinion, until he finds stability in his life (a home and a source of food).

it would be more fair in a sense that it would fix issue with unbanked people, provide a neutral system not subject to human's flaw, and also optional transparency;

as long as there isn't any persons suffering from a lack of home, food, bad health, or any other biological needs, then I don't see the issue with others people doing what they want with their earned money. the state will ensure that its society advances in the right direction.

the problem you're talking about, people "will see that what they have will get smaller and question that" is an issue that has to do with our current system, where savings are subject to inflation (the reduction of the purchasing power of those savings over time). printing money just makes the problem worse as you know.

"So, what happens to those who do the jobs"> people who work for public services shall be paid by the state. the state shall find ways to earn money (like for instance, being paid in exchange for a service, like highway fees), or just gets income from the yearly tax, as needed for the continuation of the services provided by the state. basically... exactly like it's working now. though with a system like bitcoin, people could ask for the state to make their spendings truly public, without having to trust mere words.
I'm not sure what you're asking. the people you refer to ARE getting paid less in our current system, because of inflation. inflation reduces the purchasing power of the currency.

I think you misunderstand the decimal point: adding one more zero doesn't reduce the value of the currency. 1.0 bitcoin is equal to 1.00 bitcoin, it's just that with 1.00, there's 10x more people that can use it. however if there's 100 dollars and you print money to x10 that, all you're doing is lowering the value of the currency and increasing prices, except for those who are close to the printing press, who benefit from the new money before the inflation spreads in the economy. not good...it would be fine if that wasn't happening, sadly it's what's happening
hope that helps

[hellhamster]

You're all forgetting you can tether a coin like bitcoin to a stablecoin to remove volatility altogether, like I mentioned in a previous post.

The actual big problem of cryptocurrencies is accumulation and market manipulation of whales.

Some fuckers who put in an order of several million during a flash crash and buy everything up for 10 cents on the dollar.

This is still something that can be solved easily with limiting swinging during a flash crash through the blockchain.

Solving the huge accumulation problem is harder though. Everything can be monitored through blockchain explorer, but it's still hard to counter the problem.

[Elegiac]

You're all forgetting you can tether a coin like bitcoin to a stablecoin

Congratulations on reinventing fixed currency. Lol.

This really has "tech bros will slap a Newspeak sounding name on an existing idea to try and claim they're doing something novel" energy, as when Lyft reinvented the bus. It all seems to be based on an anti-establishment streak wherein a given practice is judged on whether or not it's a 'government' doing it.

[Belize]

The actual big problem of cryptocurrencies is accumulation and market manipulation of whales.

Some fuckers who put in an order of several million during a flash crash and buy everything up for 10 cents on the dollar.

Wait until you learn that it's not a problem unique to crypto, you're going to have your mind blown!

[hellhamster]

Congratulations on reinventing fixed currency. Lol.

This really has "tech bros will slap a Newspeak sounding name on an existing idea to try and claim they're doing something novel" energy, as when Lyft reinvented the bus. It all seems to be based on an anti-establishment streak wherein a given practice is judged on whether or not it's a 'government' doing it.

What are you even talking about?

[NED funded]

Yeah bitcoin is not a good crypto but its nice to speculate on

I made some small amount of money out of it these couple of days

Same thing with Cardano, dunno what that is but a friend told me to buy a couple of days ago and its now at 1 dollar wooooo

[gondrin]

"Then this is why Bitcoin" > if bitcoin grows, I see no reason why it won't be used as a "base" currency: it's neutral, who except the usa enjoys that the dollar is the "world" currency nowadays? I mean, there's not even a debate here I think. I think national currencies won't ever go away though, but what do I know

"While I do agree with" > if you lower demand, you lower some jobs that are not yet automated, true. but are we advocating for people working in useless jobs to create useless things, just for the sake of it? that doesn't sound like right, and creates waste like I said. just recycling is not at all enough, we need to stop wasting resources for things we don't truly need.
people shall 1.be able to save money 2.work if they want more money 3.be helped by the state in extreme cases if someone's situation is critical (no house, no food, etc). to me bitcoin, if it succeeds, will help in applying those 3 rules, especially the first, it's so important that people can save money, so that they don't get chained to having to live paycheck to paycheck to survive. if a person is unable to survive by himself, bitcoin or euro or dollar, the issue is the same, and the result the same: someone shall help him in my opinion, until he finds stability in his life (a home and a source of food).

it would be more fair in a sense that it would fix issue with unbanked people, provide a neutral system not subject to human's flaw, and also optional transparency;

as long as there isn't any persons suffering from a lack of home, food, bad health, or any other biological needs, then I don't see the issue with others people doing what they want with their earned money. the state will ensure that its society advances in the right direction.

the problem you're talking about, people "will see that what they have will get smaller and question that" is an issue that has to do with our current system, where savings are subject to inflation (the reduction of the purchasing power of those savings over time). printing money just makes the problem worse as you know.

"So, what happens to those who do the jobs"> people who work for public services shall be paid by the state. the state shall find ways to earn money (like for instance, being paid in exchange for a service, like highway fees), or just gets income from the yearly tax, as needed for the continuation of the services provided by the state. basically... exactly like it's working now. though with a system like bitcoin, people could ask for the state to make their spendings truly public, without having to trust mere words.
I'm not sure what you're asking. the people you refer to ARE getting paid less in our current system, because of inflation. inflation reduces the purchasing power of the currency.

I think you misunderstand the decimal point: adding one more zero doesn't reduce the value of the currency. 1.0 bitcoin is equal to 1.00 bitcoin, it's just that with 1.00, there's 10x more people that can use it. however if there's 100 dollars and you print money to x10 that, all you're doing is lowering the value of the currency and increasing prices, except for those who are close to the printing press, who benefit from the new money before the inflation spreads in the economy. not good...it would be fine if that wasn't happening, sadly it's what's happening
hope that helps

As far as the decimal point I was trying to make, while it wouldn't reduce the value of the currency, it reduces the value of the good that you would purchase with said currency. It is why I was talking about deflation as that is the natural outcome of a fixed currency with a hard maximum amount. If 10 people can use the same thing as 1 person did before because all you did was split it up into smaller pieces, how is that different then just adding more dollars/yen/euros or whatever? All you are doing is growing to an infinitely smaller number whereas with the dollar, it goes to an infinitely higher number. At least with fiat currency, it can be taken out(destroyed) and then put back in(recreated) when needed. Now tell me, if you were a producer of goods(or a business owner in general), would you want the value of your goods to decline? Be honest.

The problem is that the average person doesn't want to see numbers go down. That is a simple fact. It is an optics thing and will always be an issue until we get to a post scarcity society. That is what would happen when you add more people into a system with a fixed currency. Everyone will have less of it as it has to be spread around more to accommodate said people. If any crypto is lost or destroyed somehow, it exacerbates the problem. No nation, none, will tie their currency to a fixed currency as that was done before with the gold standard, more so where they cannot control the perceived value of their national currency. That is why bitcoin, gold or whatever that isn't a fiat currency is only good as a store of value and not as a means of general trade. While I can take an ounce of gold or 1 bitcoin or whatever and trade something for it, all I am doing is bartering.

What I am generally talking about is what I keep hearing from bitcoin bugs is that they want bitcoin to replace fiat money. As I stated in prior posts, that will never happen no matter how hard some people push for it. You pointed out that there would still be national currencies which defeats the whole point of what bitcoin was advertised as originally. No crypto will ever get to that point of replacing fiat currency because it is inherently regressive.

As an investment tool, it is fine, much like gold or stocks. As a general purpose currency, not so much.

[Cæli]

As far as the decimal point I was trying to make, while it wouldn't reduce the value of the currency, it reduces the value of the good that you would purchase with said currency. It is why I was talking about deflation as that is the natural outcome of a fixed currency with a hard maximum amount. If 10 people can use the same thing as 1 person did before because all you did was split it up into smaller pieces, how is that different then just adding more dollars/yen/euros or whatever? All you are doing is growing to an infinitely smaller number whereas with the dollar, it goes to an infinitely higher number. At least with fiat currency, it can be taken out(destroyed) and then put back in(recreated) when needed. Now tell me, if you were a producer of goods(or a business owner in general), would you want the value of your goods to decline? Be honest.

The problem is that the average person doesn't want to see numbers go down. That is a simple fact. It is an optics thing and will always be an issue until we get to a post scarcity society. That is what would happen when you add more people into a system with a fixed currency. Everyone will have less of it as it has to be spread around more to accommodate said people. If any crypto is lost or destroyed somehow, it exacerbates the problem. No nation, none, will tie their currency to a fixed currency as that was done before with the gold standard, more so where they cannot control the perceived value of their national currency. That is why bitcoin, gold or whatever that isn't a fiat currency is only good as a store of value and not as a means of general trade. While I can take an ounce of gold or 1 bitcoin or whatever and trade something for it, all I am doing is bartering.

What I am generally talking about is what I keep hearing from bitcoin bugs is that they want bitcoin to replace fiat money. As I stated in prior posts, that will never happen no matter how hard some people push for it. You pointed out that there would still be national currencies which defeats the whole point of what bitcoin was advertised as originally. No crypto will ever get to that point of replacing fiat currency because it is inherently regressive.

As an investment tool, it is fine, much like gold or stocks. As a general purpose currency, not so much.

like you said, it's like having 1 pizza, you divide it into 10 parts, you have as much pizza as before, but more people can "use" the pizza, for that you had to divide it. in the context of a deflating currency, the size of the pizza (its value) will always grow.
the difference with dollars/euro/etc is : that's the contrary of an inflating currency;
if you add more dollars, you devalue the currency, because the dollar is less "rare" (more dollars for everyone, hurts savers)
if you add more decimals, you don't devalue anything, you just allow more people to participate, which if anything would probably add more value to the network

if you meant the value of the good would drop relative to the bitcoin value, you're right. but we have the same problem the other way around with an inflating currency, with those currencies the price of goods... always go up, that's why people are urged to spend their money before that happens. we don't always see prices rising, but the purchasing power is lowering year after year. if the price in bitcoin drops, it's because the value of a bitcoin increases.

ideally you'd want a stable price, that actually stays stable forever. gold seems to be good at that.. sadly it's inconvenient to use gold nowadays. if (if) bitcoin stabilizes in the future due to its growing adoption, then I believe prices will stay stable, very long term. but since we'll probably always have local currencies, chances are the price displayed will never be in "raw" bitcoins, rather in the currency used by the merchant.

"The problem is that the average person doesn't want to see numbers go down" > the average person doesn't want to see prices going up I guess. they also don't want to see their savings value going down. and if they save in bitcoin, the value in bitcoin won't go down. prices would potentially go down, and for the average person that sounds great from an "optics" point of view

bitcoin allows to automate many systems, think of it like a currency for the internet and programmers. and as a base layer of the economy if it succeeds. we might never need to hear about bitcoin in the west, just like we don't need to hear about tcp/ip to use the internet. it's a new technology, more than a currency, but it can be a currency too and was initially designed as a currency. now we can only speculate, and see what happens in the future. being honest here: bitcoin isn't for everyone at the current state.

[Zan15]

LOL these suckers...i mean investors will never learn. At least i hope some people who lost big got back some of their Savings.
Though for every person making back some, someone else is holding the bag.


Stock just went ballistic on no news except for some shady posting about possibly someone buying a million shares short this morning and the CFO stepping down this morning. Million shares short on what 70-80 million shares out?

has swung 100% in 15 minutes

TRADING HALTED
GameStop Corp Last | 3:46 PM EST
91.70 up +46.73 (+103.91%)

Its basically just WSB'ers buying and selling frenzy with each other right now
Now its halted and they cannot even get out.


Bet once GME opens after hours it crashes hard with people taking quick profit. Sucks those people who got stuck holding at the end because of the "halt". Hope they figure out how to trade after hours.
Or not.. damn should have known better then underestimate the stupid of WSB.

LOL they crashed reddit.


After Hours: Last | 4:10 PM EST
116.52 up+24.81 (+27.05%)

...109...125..115...110...130....134.....128 all in about 3 minutes..2 minutes later 148.
We are back in WSB insanity again. Something to watch while doing my taxes. Fun
19 minutes later 189.00
4 minutes later 200 dollars hit.....1 minute later 165.
i can't stop refreshing.

bounced off 200 high and now at 5pm 150.

[SavoirFaire]

We are back in WSB insanity again. Something to watch while doing my taxes. Fun
19 minutes later 189.00
4 minutes later 200 dollars hit.....1 minute later 165.
i can't stop refreshing.

bounced off 200 high and now at 5pm 150.

WSB reminds me of this one college friend that would always keep going when we were all done for the night. You didn’t want to keep going with him, but you loved hearing about all the shenanigans he got into at 2am the night before.

[Sorensen]

Damn can someone say diamond hands?

[The Oblivion]

holy shit. my weed stock and $45 gme buys just killed it, sad i jumped out at 130 today

[NED funded]

So I have been looking why GME rose and all I could find is that the CEO posted ice cream on social media then prices spiked -_-

Oh well go grab that bag

[Zan15]

Damn can someone say diamond hands?

sure only another 300 dollars to break even for some people!!!

- - - Updated - - -

So I have been looking why GME rose and all I could find is that the CEO posted ice cream on social media then prices spiked -_-

Oh well go grab that bag

wasn't even the CEO, just the top investor
One dude stepped down in the morning and the rally did not start till around 3 ish.
then someone spread rumors about some huge million share short @ 45.

All it took was a little spike to get the ball rolling.

the amount of 1 share purchases during the start of the run was insane. Sounds like a huge problem since its low cost to jam through a bunch of 1 share purchases a few dollars higher to try to start a spark


Of course then we had something like 4 million shares trade hands at 180-200.

Going to be a wild pre market and even wilder open for those who can't trade pre market
Basically a repeat of last month.

[Bryntrollian]

A very entertaining show, indeed.