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  1. #1381
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    I'll pass on stonks until they're tokenized after the other shoe drops with this impending economic collapse.
    With all due respect, if the economy collapses to a point where it upends the entire system, your coins won't mean shit either. Such a collapse would destabilize society to a point where "investments" and "retirement" will be a moot idea of a bygone age for a long time.

  2. #1382
    Legendary! hellhamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    With all due respect, if the economy collapses to a point where it upends the entire system, your coins won't mean shit either. Such a collapse would destabilize society to a point where "investments" and "retirement" will be a moot idea of a bygone age for a long time.
    The collapse he is talking about will be linked to an inflation surge in the coming decade, which has already started happening since last year. It's always gradual at first, but becomes increasingly more violent year after year. The central banks are relatively still in control, but barely. If that changes and inflation skyrockets, guess what will happen with fiat currencies in comparison to scarce assets?

    That's all what cryptocurrencies have been, a hedge against inflation. Which is why it's always a good idea to diversify into different assets at all times.

  3. #1383
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The collapse he is talking about will be linked to an inflation surge in the coming decade, which has already started happening since last year. It's always gradual at first, but becomes increasingly more violent year after year. The central banks are relatively still in control, but barely. If that changes and inflation skyrockets, guess what will happen with fiat currencies in comparison to scarce assets?

    That's all what cryptocurrencies have been, a hedge against inflation. Which is why it's always a good idea to diversify into different assets at all times.

    So your bet is that once massive inflation takes hold of the world, everyone and their dog with start accepting DogeCoin as legal tender and everything will simply fall back into place, but with whoever hoarded a bunch of coins as the new rich elite.

    Right.

    Will my Pogs collection be a scarce asset too? I have some real minty Pogs.

  4. #1384
    Legendary! hellhamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    So your bet is that once massive inflation takes hold of the world, everyone and their dog with start accepting DogeCoin as legal tender and everything will simply fall back into place, but with whoever hoarded a bunch of coins as the new rich elite.

    Right.

    Will my Pogs collection be a scarce asset too? I have some real minty Pogs.
    The big cryptos are an asset with a value, just like gold and silver. Dogecoin is an inflationary scam.

  5. #1385
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The collapse he is talking about will be linked to an inflation surge in the coming decade, which has already started happening since last year. It's always gradual at first, but becomes increasingly more violent year after year. The central banks are relatively still in control, but barely. If that changes and inflation skyrockets, guess what will happen with fiat currencies in comparison to scarce assets?

    That's all what cryptocurrencies have been, a hedge against inflation. Which is why it's always a good idea to diversify into different assets at all times.
    Precisely! I'm consciously making a choice to be all in on crypto at the moment, fully aware of the high risk. I do this because I strongly, strongly believe in what I think are the right technologies according to not only sound fundamentals, but what the charts say as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    So your bet is that once massive inflation takes hold of the world, everyone and their dog with start accepting DogeCoin as legal tender and everything will simply fall back into place, but with whoever hoarded a bunch of coins as the new rich elite.

    Right.

    Will my Pogs collection be a scarce asset too? I have some real minty Pogs.
    I would never, NEVER, EVER buy $DOGE, memecoins, shitcoins with bad tokenomics, fundamentals, etc.

    Most of crypto is a shitshow, however, there are at least a dozen or two assets that are the real deal. Cryptocurrency is essentially a new layer of the internet. There are entities and/or cryptocurrencies that are comparable to investing into Amazon, Google, Apple, etc at the bottom of the dot com bubble. For example, Ripple is now partnered with 38% of the worlds top 100 banks, have worked with numerous governments, and are fulfilling a micro niche that makes them comparable to Netflix conquering Blockbuster, instead we're talking about the financial system itself.

    This same company is beating the SEC in court. They just got a former director to be deposed by the end of this month. That's unprecedented. Think about it. The board of directors is a revolving door of top US agency officials like former CFTC directors, US treasurers, world-class bankers, etc. Hell, one of the defense attorneys, is a former SEC director herself. It's like watching a sequel to the Big Short in real-time. The execs meet and work with the IMF and central banks. Ripple is just one company and $XRP just one crypto. There are others like $XDC $XLM $QNT, and several more that have real use cases, serious teams, and aren't vapor ware. You just won't hear about it, because that's the point. What did CNBC, traditional whales, etc say about Amazon, Google, etc at the bottom of the dot com bubble?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashnazg View Post
    Why 28th? Market dumped immediately following bigtech earnings the last few times.
    There's a lot of stuff coinciding on that date in regards to regulation. It's a day after Hinman gets deposed in SEC vs Ripple, as well as the soft deadline set by Warren to the SEC. There's a storm brewin.
    Last edited by Feltima; 2021-07-19 at 05:22 PM.

  6. #1386
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The big cryptos are an asset with a value, just like gold and silver.
    I've yet to see anyone give a solid argument as to why they believe that.

    Tangible assets like precious metals derive their value from scarcity & usability. What exactly backs most cryptos? The underlying technology? Well, not really because most are open source and easily replicable. Scarcity due to the complexity of calculating new coins into existence? Again, not really, that's at best a hardware limitation, at worst a flaw with that coin's design. It'd be like the U.S. being unable to mint new money since the database keeping track of how much has been printed only handles 32 bit numbers.

  7. #1387
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The collapse he is talking about will be linked to an inflation surge in the coming decade, which has already started happening since last year. It's always gradual at first, but becomes increasingly more violent year after year. The central banks are relatively still in control, but barely. If that changes and inflation skyrockets, guess what will happen with fiat currencies in comparison to scarce assets?

    That's all what cryptocurrencies have been, a hedge against inflation. Which is why it's always a good idea to diversify into different assets at all times.
    LOL the inflation boogie man when most of it has to do with supply problems (Just In Time mess), profit greed and the huge increase in spending after a year of complete decimation of consumer spending norms.

    Lets also not forget the massive amount of the inflation gain being in just a few area's like Auto, Travel and Energy. The other area's are not anywhere near big increases unless you compare it to the abnormally low inflation we have seen over the past decade.

    A year ago you could rent a car for 33 dollars all in, now you need 115+
    Used cars are going for more than new cars.
    Oil was sub 40. Gas was 1.50.

    Comparing anything to "last year" is worthless at this point, especially with supply problems creating an artificial inflation problem which is compounded by businesses taking advantage of that to raise prices to make up for last year.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  8. #1388
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    I've yet to see anyone give a solid argument as to why they believe that.

    Tangible assets like precious metals derive their value from scarcity & usability. What exactly backs most cryptos? The underlying technology? Well, not really because most are open source and easily replicable. Scarcity due to the complexity of calculating new coins into existence? Again, not really, that's at best a hardware limitation, at worst a flaw with that coin's design. It'd be like the U.S. being unable to mint new money since the database keeping track of how much has been printed only handles 32 bit numbers.
    Well, there's Metcalfe's law, and varying milage on the quality of the network itself.

    Blockchain and DLT are immutable technologies. Meaning that short of using quantum computing, there's no way to copy/delete/edit blockchains or DLTs. By the time we do have scalable quantum tech, we'll have quantum DLT. When I send money "digitally" using swift, there are still tape drives and humans and shit behind that transaction. It doesn't complete for three days, even if your bank/spending account honors the transaction ahead of time. If I send you cryptocurrency, I'm actually sending you the money. The transaction completes on both ends in varying levels of efficiency depending on the coin. BTC is actually a terrible choice. It's expensive, and takes time. There's also the scalability requiring exponentially more energy the more people use it.

    Cryptocurrencies that are DLT such as XRP, however, are designed to be scalable. I can send XRP to anywhere in the world in near real-time. No matter the amount, it will complete within seconds, and cost a fraction of a cent. The icing on the cake is that it's carbon neutral. XRP doesn't require a legion of ASICs mining the coin ad nauseam. There isn't some old lady using ancient tech from the 70s to approve the transactions. It's also deflationary, every transaction burns a small fraction of the supply. That's only the base use case. That doesn't get into DeFi, NFTS, DAPPS, etc and others beyond just currency itself.

  9. #1389
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    Well, there's Metcalfe's law, and varying milage on the quality of the network itself.

    Blockchain and DLT are immutable technologies. Meaning that short of using quantum computing, there's no way to copy/delete/edit blockchains or DLTs. By the time we do have scalable quantum tech, we'll have quantum DLT. When I send money "digitally" using swift, there are still tape drives and humans and shit behind that transaction. It doesn't complete for three days, even if your bank/spending account honors the transaction ahead of time. If I send you cryptocurrency, I'm actually sending you the money. The transaction completes on both ends in varying levels of efficiency depending on the coin. BTC is actually a terrible choice. It's expensive, and takes time. There's also the scalability requiring exponentially more energy the more people use it.

    Cryptocurrencies that are DLT such as XRP, however, are designed to be scalable. I can send XRP to anywhere in the world in near real-time. No matter the amount, it will complete within seconds, and cost a fraction of a cent. The icing on the cake is that it's carbon neutral. XRP doesn't require a legion of ASICs mining the coin ad nauseam. There isn't some old lady using ancient tech from the 70s to approve the transactions. It's also deflationary, every transaction burns a small fraction of the supply. That's only the base use case. That doesn't get into DeFi, NFTS, DAPPS, etc and others beyond just currency itself.
    Ok, but that doesn't address how that makes a coin an asset.

    You could, theoritically, use the same technology to overhaul the banking of current US Dollars. What I want you, or anyone, to explain is what backs an individual coin. How will any if these coins supplant the current financial system? To send money? Well, ok, but that's just a middleman at this point, and assuming businesses start taking various coins, you're just transferring money to a new currency.

    How are any if these coins an "investment" past a pyramid scheme? BitCoin is expensive because more and more people buy into it trying to make money. Same for Etherium. Same for insert X coin here.

  10. #1390
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Ok, but that doesn't address how that makes a coin an asset.

    You could, theoritically, use the same technology to overhaul the banking of current US Dollars. What I want you, or anyone, to explain is what backs an individual coin. How will any if these coins supplant the current financial system? To send money? Well, ok, but that's just a middleman at this point, and assuming businesses start taking various coins, you're just transferring money to a new currency.

    How are any if these coins an "investment" past a pyramid scheme? BitCoin is expensive because more and more people buy into it trying to make money. Same for Etherium. Same for insert X coin here.
    This is where folks have the disconnect with crypto. You have to believe in the code to understand the point of cryptos is that the network itself is what backs it based on its tokenomics and utility. You have to understand decentralization. It's engineered scarcity. I could try and spell out the advent of CBDCs, e-SDRs and intermediary private bridge assets, but I'm not going to change your mind. Look for the right documents, begin to understand what the new ecosystem is like. It's not something you will easily find wrapped up in a silver bullet for you, because it's a nascent technology. You don't have to believe in DLT which is code as true law, just follow what the smart money is doing.

    https://www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Co...r-sarbhai.ashx

  11. #1391
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    You have to believe in the code to understand the point of cryptos is that the network itself is what backs it based on its tokenomics and utility.
    Remind me how this is any different from fiat.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  12. #1392
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Remind me how this is any different from fiat.
    I can control the supply of money, and manipulate the markets with FIAT. You can't print crypto, maybe "burn" it depending on the coin, etc. The government can't control a cryptocurrency (outside of respective CBDCs) which is why China is banning cryptocurrencies as they roll out the digital yuan, a CBDC. If the digital yuan wants to participate in the global economy, however, it will have to be interoperable with a crypto designed to do that like XRP or XLM.

    Simply put, fiat is centralized, CBDCs less so on a global scale because they need cryptocurrencies in their current incarnation to work with a US or EU CBDC. With CBDCs, no currency can be weaponized. There wouldn't be any more sanctions, things like that. It's a fundamentally new financial system.

    Both are currently digital ledgers, but the XRPL and others like it are ledgers that everyone knows can't be cooked.
    Last edited by Feltima; 2021-07-19 at 07:33 PM.

  13. #1393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    I can control the supply of money, and manipulate the markets with FIAT.
    This is a feature, not a bug.

    "You can't do monetary policy with cryptocurrency" should be a black mark against it for the same reason it was a black market against the gold standard. Can we please get some financial advice from y'all that isn't just a rehash of the Austrian school?

    I suppose "worse than fiat" is technically "different from fiat".
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-07-19 at 07:37 PM.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  14. #1394
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    This is a feature, not a bug.

    "You can't do monetary policy with cryptocurrency" should be a black mark against it for the same reason it was a black market against the gold standard. Can we please get some financial advice from y'all that isn't just a rehash of the Austrian school?

    I suppose "worse than fiat" is technically "different from fiat".

    If the gold standard was actually scalable, like you know, crypto is, why is it bad that governments can't manipulate the global economy? A CBDC will behave much like FIAT, so all of the keynesian mechanisms people like for some reason are built into CBDCs.

  15. #1395
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    If the gold standard was actually scalable, like you know, crypto is
    Y'all are aware that crypto is contingent on a limited supply of semiconductors, right?

    Like, there's a reason gamers hate crypto traders so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    why is it bad that governments can't manipulate the global economy
    Because the history of industrial economies prior to the normalization of monetary policy shows that a lack of it correlates highly to frequent and heavy recessions?

    Don't fix it if it ain't broke, and monetary policy isn't the broken thing. Capitalism is.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  16. #1396
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    This is where folks have the disconnect with crypto. You have to believe in the code to -
    Let me stop you right there.

    All this faith in crypto being un-manipulatable unlike current fiat currencies is bogus. I understand there's a lot of coins out there putting out a lot of fluff on how secure, and revolutionary their crypto is, but if it's a piece of code written by a human being, I can guarantee you there are ways to manipulate it. Full stop.

    This is like security companies being like "haha, our software is unhackab- oops it got hacked".

    just follow what the smart money is doing.
    Yeah, all those smart money folks just giving away their tricks or letting slip what they're doing to the public. Totally.

    Look, I don't dislike crypto as an idea. The faster/more secure transactions are a boon that needs to be integrated within daily economic transactions.

    But this shit about "investing" in coins, when less than 100 people hold the majority of various coins, is obviously a pyramid scheme. Even Daddy Elon stopped accepting crypto to pay for his cars.

  17. #1397
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Y'all are aware that crypto is contingent on a limited supply of semiconductors, right?

    Like, there's a reason gamers hate crypto traders so much.



    Because the history of industrial economies prior to the normalization of monetary policy shows that a lack of it correlates highly to frequent and heavy recessions?

    Don't fix it if it ain't broke, and monetary policy isn't the broken thing. Capitalism is.


    NO, NO, NO! THIS IS NOT TRUE! I LITERALLY JUST STATED THIS!

    *ahem*

    It's not you personally, it just gets old hearing that because people don't understand this stuff yet because it's so damn bleeding edge. Only proof of work coins need ASICs for mining and maintaining the network. This is why Bitcoin isn't scalable. You'd need exponentially more power for the things the larger the network is. So by about 10-15% of the population, increasing anymore beyond that would require a feat of engineering that would challenge humanity, as well as being needlessly absurd.

    Proof of Consensus coins, like XRP, are already mined, and don't require hash power to maintain the network. XRP uses a fraction of the electricity in a light bulb to do transactions, it's virtually carbon neutral. This is by design, because it's actually meant to be scalable. The same applies for many, many other cryptocurrencies. Ethereum? Bitcoin? ERC20 tokens? That's their problem, the crypto that are being targeted and worked with by the IMF have to be green as qualifying criteria. I hope Bitcoin and Ethereum go belly up, which they will.

    We're not talking about Keynesian monetary policy vs anarcho-capitalism. The concepts and principles behind the true coins of the future vs bitcoin are completely different. The new financial system, the code is the monetary policy itself. XRPL is designed to address all of this. It's meant to work with the old system, and propel it into the 21st century. We're removing that little old lady that works at SWIFT on the tape servers. This isn't adding a middle man, it's cutting out tons of middlemen, wiping out bureaucracy where it's not needed, and isn't married to political ideology as philosophy. It's pure, unbiased code such is the magnificence of decentralization.

    Monetary policy is broken. If it weren't the global economy wouldn't be on the brink. I'm actually quite excited about the prospects of a post-capitalist society. People conflate Bitcoin with the entire industry, and bitcoin is inherently capitalistic. I think this is a consequence of a lack of nuanced understanding of the technology. While decentralization is on a surface level anti-government, the technology could be used to end election fraud, enable direct democracy, and allow a true government for the people. Cryptocurrency is actually rather insidious. I think it actually hails the end of capitalism as we enter an era of "social-capitalism" in which governments are able to exert more control and taxes over corporations thanks to the transparency and control CBDCs can provide governments. By slowly, gradually re-balancing power in the world between corporations, governments, and any other hegemonic entity, it makes it soo much easier to transition to a post-capitalist society once the means of production begin to vastly outpace demand, ending scarcity.

    Instead of a revolution, capitalism and private property will end because the markets demand it. I fucking love cryptocurrency. Not because I'm some anarcho-capitalist, because it's making me rich, but because not only is the technology ingenious but it has the potential to allow humanity to transcend the limits of contemporary economics. As we both clearly agree, capitalism in it's current stage has run it's course, the world needs something new. Cryptocurrency isn't a post-capitalist society, but the next step before getting there.

  18. #1398
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    -snip-
    No.

    Monetary policy is broken. If it weren't the global economy wouldn't be on the brink.
    Citation needed.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  19. #1399
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Let me stop you right there.

    All this faith in crypto being un-manipulatable unlike current fiat currencies is bogus. I understand there's a lot of coins out there putting out a lot of fluff on how secure, and revolutionary their crypto is, but if it's a piece of code written by a human being, I can guarantee you there are ways to manipulate it. Full stop.

    This is like security companies being like "haha, our software is unhackab- oops it got hacked".



    Yeah, all those smart money folks just giving away their tricks or letting slip what they're doing to the public. Totally.

    Look, I don't dislike crypto as an idea. The faster/more secure transactions are a boon that needs to be integrated within daily economic transactions.

    But this shit about "investing" in coins, when less than 100 people hold the majority of various coins, is obviously a pyramid scheme. Even Daddy Elon stopped accepting crypto to pay for his cars.
    Yeah, 99% of cryptos are going to die. The only companies I think are truly legit are companies like Corda and Ripple. Even Cardano is still vaporware. There are others, but it really is literally a handful of legit tech, just like the dotcom bubble at it's peak. So many shit companies, so much VC money, so many people saying the internet was a scam/fad like crypto.

    Like I said, I can't change your mind. I tell you what, I bet you a single XRP, that the XRPL will still be considered one of the most secure applications ever created by 2030. That's the point of cryptocurrency. The point is the network is immutable. Look at BTC. It's based on SHA256, and it's still secure. The day a blockchain/DLT network is legit cracked, it's going to be on the news everywhere.

  20. #1400
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feltima View Post
    Like I said, I can't change your mind. I tell you what, I bet you a single XRP
    And I bet you nothing that by 2030 the crypto du jour won't matter because we'll be far too busy scrabbling to preserve our civilization from the self-inflicted ravages of climate change which have not been helped by the fact finance bros have found a new instrument to speculate on that enables individuals to have the carbon footprint of some small countries.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

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