Heroic dungeons are bloat

[cparle87]

It’s good design. Copying and pasting something, not changing anything fundamental about it, and calling it something different is bad design.

Its bloat, which is exactly what me and people that get it have been saying in this thread.

Some people feel like it is content and they are losing something, therefore this is bad.

This is true, but the content getting removed is already in the game with normal, you’re just losing the copied/rebranded version of it.

This opens the way to many positive changes. This makes the game better.

Furthermore, the fact you take this personally and telling me I need to get help for proposing an idea to improve the game, makes you sound like a toxic garbage human being.

Sounds like youre the one that really needs help.

He explained what they changed about it you plugging your ears and going la la doesn't change it, and that's your opinion.

Again your opinion, which people have argued again.

Now you're claiming other people's opinions as evidence to support your arguement.

He explained what the difficulties exist for.

Saying "doing things I want will make many good things happen" sounds like something a politician would say.

Except it's not an improvement. You've been told why your ideas don't fit but you're so convinced you're right and everyone else is wrong. Add to the fact you ad hominem attack anyone who disagrees with you makes you sound worse.

[Aristai1723]

Normal dungeons are leveling dungeons. When I hit max level I went straight into the heroic queue with some crafted items and the torghast neck and cape.

Yesterday I did my weeklies and queued for both just to shorten the wait. The normal run was a nightmare. Heroic was smooth as silk. Leveling in dungeons totally has a place in the game. So the dev time lost is minimal.

[VinceVega]

Base Mythic (M0) are above most players capabilities? Are you serious?

Yes i am. There are MAAAANY players in the game who you will never have contact with. Who will never write in a forum or look up anything out of the game.
Look up the 80 20 5 rule.

Hell i work with two people who are still leveling and another who tried mythic0, said it was too much of a hazzle for him and just stuck with LFR/LFD.
They don't complain. They play what they are able to and are content with it.

Many people don't care about better gear or hiogher difficulties. It is enough for them to SEE the content. No reason to take away their game if we have enough on the higher difficulties.

[Azerate]

The current options for difficulty work well. This has been stated numerous times by blizzard who have all the analytics. Just because a couple guys think that some difficulties are redundant, simply because they don't cater to them, it doesn't mean they should be deleted.

Base Mythic (M0) are above most players capabilities? Are you serious?

There's a lot of casuals / friends in my guild who absolutely refuse to join a mythic 0 dungeon. Explaining to them that it's not much harder than heroic is utterly futile. It's called mythic, it requires manual grouping - their answer is no.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Base Mythic (M0) are above most players capabilities? Are you serious?

You have no idea how many people were whining on the forums when queuing for heroic in Warlords of Draenor required you to achieve proving grounds Silver. Normal dungeons were filled with players who just couldn't do it.

[Niwes]

imo they need a complete new layer structure, especially since TF no longer exists. since there is literally no gain in running „lower difficulty“ dungeons and the concept per se is outdated and not matches modern environment.

i would change the structure according to player types instead difficulty. more on terms of LFD dungeons, PreMade Dungeons via Tool, PreMade Dungeons via Guild/Realm (all 5 players are from same realm or same guild).

i have some things in mind here but no time to type them in. i let your imagination build the concepts. my core statement is just this:

get rid of a [difficulty, „one after another“, item level]-based mindset and switch to a more playertype-focused mindset when designing structure of dungeon layers.

[LilSaihah]

Normal dungeons should just have level scaling.

[chiddie]

You have no idea how many people were whining on the forums when queuing for heroic in Warlords of Draenor required you to achieve proving grounds Silver. Normal dungeons were filled with players who just couldn't do it.

I understand what you are saying but M0 is only slightly more difficult than heroic.

I am 182 resto shaman and I’m practicing into them to make experience for real keys but it doesn’t seem impossible. Yes, sometimes we wipe or someone dies because instagibbed and I can’t keep them up but for example we just did the last SoA boss in 3 because two died by mechanics after 1 minute, it took time but we did it.

Hearing that people just refuse to do M0 because they think it’s too difficult is... concerning: what do they do when they reach heroic gear level and will breeze through heroic difficulty level?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I understand what you are saying but M0 is only slightly more difficult than heroic.

I am 182 resto shaman and I’m practicing into them to make experience for real keys but it doesn’t seem impossible. Yes, sometimes we wipe or someone dies because instagibbed and I can’t keep them up but for example we just did the last SoA boss in 3 because two died by mechanics after 1 minute, it took time but we did it.

Hearing that people just refuse to do M0 because they think it’s too difficult is... concerning: what do they do when they reach heroic gear level and will breeze through heroic difficulty level?

They do LFR and world content. Stuff with mechanics is too much for a lot of players.

[Biggles Worth]

100% Disagree.

The gap of power and skill required for normal to mythic is pretty substantial for the average player.

What value do players gain by removing a difficult level?

What justification is there to have a 30ilvl difference in gear between two points?

LFG exists for normal and heroic.

Group Finder is fine for mythics.

What's broken here, that you're fixing?

I haven't done a single normal dungeon or heroic dungeon this expansion. Just been putting about doing other things in game. I did my first dungeon last night, Mythic Plaguefall with some LFR heroes. It was overall very easy.

[jeokaleo]

I'm almost in a full set of 158 honor gear and people in BFA gear still have 2K more HP than me with better secondary stats because sockets.

It's ridiculous and the 40% Vers isn't doing anything when I have 15% Versatility only while having Versatility on every piece of gear. Might as well use Drest still Kodi nox.....

[crusadernero]

Normal is fine for leveling, heroic feels useless. But then again - so does mythic0 run. Dungeons is in this weird place were most of the content there is utterly useless, cause they give lesser rewards. The real rewards are at the top.

[czarek]

Yeah for me normal and hc is flat here. M0 should exist because there is weekly cap on loot. But normal mode could be merged with heroic and ur loot lvl denepds on ur lvl. If ur 60 u got ilvl proper to it 171 as it is on hc now? if under just normal for ur current lvl.

[Niwes]

hmm, i can definetelly understand OPs post, when i look at what my actual character did:

- level to 60
- ding 60
- go straight into the AH with 5000g and buy 168 ilvl on every slot
- do the world boss
- do 5 TW dungeons if its TW week
- do Covenant quests

- all this happened on weekend 1 after i dinged 60
- now i have around 12-13 slots with item of itemlevel 168
- the other slots 2-3 slot are higher (around 200 itemlevel)
- my characters itemlevel is now 169 (169,7)
- heroic dungeons drop itemlevel 171
- LFR requirement to run LFR is itemlevel 170
- LFR drops itemlevel 187

ok. this IS strange. because i NEED to run max 1-3 heroic dungeons and need only 1 single heroic dungeon item, to reach 170 itemlevel and be able to do LFR. from a pure „progress“ perspective heroic dungeons are completely useless and i will do 2-3 of them once in my life.

that said, all other things beside, the OP has definetely a point here.


tiny edit/addition here:
idk why this happened this way or if my recall is bad, but when i calculate this, it is even worth. with 168 on every slot and just a single 200 item your characters itemlevel is already 172 and ready for LFR. so you do not even need to run a single heroic dungeon, when you can buy the 168 items or build by your own profession. i assume in my case it was a low weapon, why i had to run 2 heroic dungeons to reach 170 itemlevel. all in all heroics are totally useless, progress wise, in this xpac.

[Zergin8r]

Are you playing on dialup or something? Even basic cable in like 2006 was more than enough for WoW.

Not quite but close lol.
My choices are 10-12ish MB satellite, which is ridiculous expensive, like $250/month for 10 GB + $10/GB over that or what they advertise as 6 MB DSL but is more like .5 MB since the lines out here are ancient. If you go half a km down the road you can't even get dial up. I managed to get an unlimited data plan on my phone and I usually just tether it but its slowed down to .5 MB after 20 GB as well and I usually get around 500-800 ms after that, basically I have 20 GB of decent internet per month. That's what I get for living in a rural part of Canada... they will probably never upgrade the internet her before I die... will prob get Starlink unless the gov't doesn't allow it here because they want to keep a monopoly on the 3 major telecom companies here.

EDIT: Just checked Starlink is available in parts of Canada, but it still has to go through our internet backbone systems so I'm still pretty much screwed lol. There are literally places in our capital and other major cities that have dial up only because of the way lines are run and telecoms refusal to upgrade them. Wish I still had a screenshot of the speedtest I did at work when we were having interact issues, and it was giving negative speeds.

[czarek]

I would like to see queuing for mythic+0 for sure. They aren't much more difficult than heroic and no keys or anything required.

Except loot lockou. You can do 1 myth0 each per week. And that is quite good cap. If m0 would be on random with no lock there is no reason to do any other content before raid and m+ just spam m0 random que. That sounds bad imo. Afkers, dumbs etc

[Schizoide]

So remove the cap or make it 1 per day, who cares? The alternative is nobody ever does mythic+0s at all. Although given the loot rewards, my guess is nobody would anyway-- WQs give loot equivalent to mythic+5.

[gaymer77]

Heroic and normal are literally the same thing. With SLIGHTLY different tuning due to ilvl requirements.

You do realize that normal and heroic versions of dungeons have ALWAYS been basically the same thing with the exception of things in a heroic having more HP and dealing more damage and heroic gear having a higher item level or different gear all together right?

[Tadkins]

There's a lot of casuals / friends in my guild who absolutely refuse to join a mythic 0 dungeon. Explaining to them that it's not much harder than heroic is utterly futile. It's called mythic, it requires manual grouping - their answer is no.

The social barrier can be a tough obstacle to overcome. I'm terrified of the thought of trying to join a 0 and either get rejected constantly, or making a mistake and getting kicked.

[jsj]

Whole premise that the solution to a non-issue concerning having both heroic and m+ is to remove heroic is ridiculous. Different audiences and skill requirement. Casuals and amateurs are the majority of any hobby. Wow isn't any difference.

Remove m+, make a league based system depending on skill and experience and and adjust the difficulty according to the league you are in. That way you have 3 difficulties and you get your own little bubble and don't have to worry about 18+ difficulties. Would also fix the problem. If it is even a problem.