Heroic dungeons are bloat

[InfernalDark]

They should remove one raid difficulty too

[VinceVega]

No reason for the tier to exist. It's redundant with normal.

They should remove it and make it Normal -> Mythic. Allow the ability to que for Mythic +0 and take with it the mechanics and difficulty.

LFG should remain for Mythic keystones.

What do you think?


Update:

Improvements offered by this -

- Ilvl scaling is less out of control by end of expansion.
- Base Mythic is queable.
- Will never need to repeat dungeons on two nearly identical difficulties to increase power and get to minimum requirements for mythic/raids.
- Less bloat = clearer and more efficient power progression.
- Dungeon difficulties are all fundamentally distinct now.

= Better overall experience.

+ Saves development time.

Bloat that does not matter to you in the slightest. Just ignore it. Overall they don't inflate the gear as much as the 4 raid difficulties.
Base Mythic is above many players capabilities. Which will result in Cata whining. Then a nerf of mythic and cascading into mythic+. You just change the name in the end. As mythic+2 will be the old mythic 0.

I don't think there is that much development time in tuning a little bit in heroic as they have to do it anyway for mythic+

There is no real reason to remove any difficulty atm. The lower ones will get redundant for higher players in two days but many others will never progress past them.
Ilvl will always scale to high at the end of an expansion with a squish probably every 2 expansions.

The ONLY thing i agree is to make base M0 queable.

[rrayy]

okay. some people here don't seem to understand what OP means. i'll try to clarify:

OP suggests to merge normal and heroic dungeons, as that would save us a few itemlevels because they're basically the same (mechanics wise). This can easily be done (and is already done for normal mode) via level scaling: during leveling, the dungeons give lower ilvl and more at max level. This would be the "new" normal mode. In SL that would be ilvl 158.

Then, he wants to take regular mythic dungeons (as they are now) and make them queueable. this could be called "heroic" again. with mythic+ being renamed to heroic+ In SL that would be 171.

he basically shifts ilvls down by 13. normal castle nathria (on the live version being ilvl 200/207) would be 187/194 while mythic nathria would be 213/220 instead of 226/233.

EDIT: I'm neither for nor against OP's suggestion. I just tried to clarify that there's nothing "being taken away" from casuals by OP's approach.

Or he could just not go into heroics and just do mythics. He is trying to give a solution to a problem that does not exist simply because he hates heroics. Period.

- - - Updated - - -

Except you aren't thinking about it right at all. The way you are thinking is completely wrong on how it would be put into the game.

Normals (formally named as Heroic) would drop 158. Heroics (formally named as Mythic) would drop 171. There would be no M0 and it would start with M+ dropping 184+. So your logic wouldn't work at all.

There really is no good argument to have Normal / Heroic / Mythic all three difficulties since all it does is bloat gear when vast majority of people will skip normal tier on dungeons and raids. Especially when people complain about how item levels get bloated so much. If they removed Normal Dungeons and normal raids and bumped the naming scheme down they could essentially remove ~70 item levels in an expansion.

Yeah there is:

Normals = leveling
Heroic = max level
Mythic = challenging and timed max level

Things are perfectly fine as is. Stop asking for the removal of things because you don't like it.

- - - Updated - - -

Not in difficulty. Blizzard stated heroic was old normal equivalent.

Tht was for raids, not dungeons

[Lucetia]

Yeah there is:

Normals = leveling
Heroic = max level
Mythic = challenging and timed max level

Things are perfectly fine as is. Stop asking for the removal of things because you don't like it.

Except it isn't that way.

You have:

Normals = Few dungeons while leveling
Normals = Max Level with more dungeons
Heroics = Max level
Mythic = Max level
Mythic+ = Challenge Content

[rrayy]

Except it isn't that way.

You have:

Normals = Few dungeons while leveling
Normals = Max Level with more dungeons
Heroics = Max level
Mythic = Max level
Mythic+ = Challenge Content

then all you have to do is make al normals leveling. As it is, your way doesn't solve bloat because the bloat come form the raids. You never reduced the iLvLs Your solution is in search of a problem that does not exist.

[Lucetia]

then all you have to do is make al normals leveling. As it is, your way doesn't solve bloat because the bloat come form the raids. You never reduced the iLvLs Your solution is in search of a problem that does not exist.

You should probably go back and read my posts as they address this as well. You would remove 1 entire level of difficulty reducing everything by 13 to start with which also involved the plan of removing heroic raids as well freeing up another 13 per tier. So first tier removes 26 item levels then future tiers remove 13 item levels resulting in a loss of around 70-80 item levels an expansion.

[Krakan]

You should probably go back and read my posts as they address this as well. You would remove 1 entire level of difficulty reducing everything by 13 to start with which also involved the plan of removing heroic raids as well freeing up another 13 per tier. So first tier removes 26 item levels then future tiers remove 13 item levels resulting in a loss of around 70-80 item levels an expansion.

It wouldn't be a bad idea. Heroic in terms of dungeons doesn't really feel like it has a place in the game anymore. It isn't doing much harm but I can't really see any benefits either scaling ilv and mythic has effectively replaced it.

Heroic raids on the other hand... while I admit that during some tiers have felt redundant on others like the current offer a genuine progression path. I would be much more hesitant to but those.

[Teucer]

Agree, or turn nornal into heroic. Both normal and heroic don't make much sense as long as mythic also exists. It's just mindleslly spamming dungeons to hit ilvl as neither difficulty poses an actual challenge or something.

Just have normals drop heroic level loot and have a forced lockout (can still join random queue). This would solve the problems. I doubt its a huge amount of dev time they're putting into making normals into heroics anyway.

[agentsi]

Heroic and normal are literally the same thing. With SLIGHTLY different tuning due to ilvl requirements.

Heroic does not need to exist. It's arbitrary.

- - - Updated - - -

Except, that you know, they're not.

If all you're basing things off of is ilvl requirement, then they still aren't the same thing. Normal, Heroic, Mythic. Each drops gear to help the average player bridge the gap between their skill and their ilvl. Those with more skill, require less ilvl, hence why the mythic raid was cleared already and the average ilvl was 208-212. And, by the end of this tier, folks are going to be full-on 226-233 ilvl, and STILL will not be able to clear the mythic raids.

If you follow the natural progression of the system, running the dungeons on normal, you learn the basics of the encounters. Running them on heroic, they add a little more to the mechanics, then a tiny gear check. Once you hit Mythic, things have bumped up mechanic wise, to how they will be in M+, and now dps requirements for phases as well. For the average player, normal Mythics are not easy for them. In short, the dungeon difficulty levels are already distinct, very much so in fact.

The system is working as intended, and you're simply trying to look for a problem because you think you have a solution. Except, there is no problem to be found, only an issue you've created in your head. Tuning dungeons after the normal mode or mythic mode is made( I don't know which one is made first ), is basically like dragging a slider. There is no effort for them to change them. No resources to waste.

As many, many folks have already stated, you're creating a problem when there isn't one.

Stop, get some help.

[Amariw]

I've been thinking this for awhile.

They need to consolidate a LFD difficulty, Heroics currently feel like a really oddball step in between that doesn't hold any relevance after the initial gear grind and one that could easily be removed.

If I were to propose a change though, I think Heroic should take the current difficulty and format of Mythic 0 and Mythic 0 should be what Mythic+1 is now (roll M+ affixes out with the initial mythic difficulty basically).

Solid idea. I agree with you and the original poster, Heroic is redundant. Maybe there are many players who queueable mythic 0 will be too hard for them, but if the actual numbers are tuned right (so for example you'll only need normal dung ilvl for it rather than the current heroic dung ilvl), then i think people will learn quickly enough. When its not timed content, it's pretty chill.

[Mojo03]

Except, that you know, they're not.

If all you're basing things off of is ilvl requirement, then they still aren't the same thing. Normal, Heroic, Mythic. Each drops gear to help the average player bridge the gap between their skill and their ilvl. Those with more skill, require less ilvl, hence why the mythic raid was cleared already and the average ilvl was 208-212. And, by the end of this tier, folks are going to be full-on 226-233 ilvl, and STILL will not be able to clear the mythic raids.

If you follow the natural progression of the system, running the dungeons on normal, you learn the basics of the encounters. Running them on heroic, they add a little more to the mechanics, then a tiny gear check. Once you hit Mythic, things have bumped up mechanic wise, to how they will be in M+, and now dps requirements for phases as well. For the average player, normal Mythics are not easy for them. In short, the dungeon difficulty levels are already distinct, very much so in fact.

The system is working as intended, and you're simply trying to look for a problem because you think you have a solution. Except, there is no problem to be found, only an issue you've created in your head. Tuning dungeons after the normal mode or mythic mode is made( I don't know which one is made first ), is basically like dragging a slider. There is no effort for them to change them. No resources to waste.

As many, many folks have already stated, you're creating a problem when there isn't one.

Stop, get some help.

It’s good design. Copying and pasting something, not changing anything fundamental about it, and calling it something different is bad design.

Its bloat, which is exactly what me and people that get it have been saying in this thread.

Some people feel like it is content and they are losing something, therefore this is bad.

This is true, but the content getting removed is already in the game with normal, you’re just losing the copied/rebranded version of it.

This opens the way to many positive changes. This makes the game better.

Furthermore, the fact you take this personally and telling me I need to get help for proposing an idea to improve the game, makes you sound like a toxic garbage human being.

Sounds like youre the one that really needs help.

[Baroclinic]

Hey, anyone remember when M0 wasn't even a thing. It was normal-->Heroic-->Kill the first raid boss then spend 3 hours wiping to the next.

Yea, not sure the point of M0 short of learning the mechanics without a timer rushing you.

[Stoffmeister]

I agree with op, when my bdk dinged I went straight to mythic as a tank ilvl 138. Couldnt even queue up to all normal dungeons. After two mythics I was 148 and tanked a 2+

[chiddie]

Bloat that does not matter to you in the slightest. Just ignore it. Overall they don't inflate the gear as much as the 4 raid difficulties.
Base Mythic is above many players capabilities. Which will result in Cata whining. Then a nerf of mythic and cascading into mythic+. You just change the name in the end. As mythic+2 will be the old mythic 0.

I don't think there is that much development time in tuning a little bit in heroic as they have to do it anyway for mythic+

There is no real reason to remove any difficulty atm. The lower ones will get redundant for higher players in two days but many others will never progress past them.
Ilvl will always scale to high at the end of an expansion with a squish probably every 2 expansions.

The ONLY thing i agree is to make base M0 queable.

Base Mythic (M0) are above most players capabilities? Are you serious?

[cparle87]

It’s good design. Copying and pasting something, not changing anything fundamental about it, and calling it something different is bad design.

Its bloat, which is exactly what me and people that get it have been saying in this thread.

Some people feel like it is content and they are losing something, therefore this is bad.

This is true, but the content getting removed is already in the game with normal, you’re just losing the copied/rebranded version of it.

This opens the way to many positive changes. This makes the game better.

Furthermore, the fact you take this personally and telling me I need to get help for proposing an idea to improve the game, makes you sound like a toxic garbage human being.

Sounds like youre the one that really needs help.

He explained what they changed about it you plugging your ears and going la la doesn't change it, and that's your opinion.

Again your opinion, which people have argued again.

Now you're claiming other people's opinions as evidence to support your arguement.

He explained what the difficulties exist for.

Saying "doing things I want will make many good things happen" sounds like something a politician would say.

Except it's not an improvement. You've been told why your ideas don't fit but you're so convinced you're right and everyone else is wrong. Add to the fact you ad hominem attack anyone who disagrees with you makes you sound worse.

[Aristai1723]

Normal dungeons are leveling dungeons. When I hit max level I went straight into the heroic queue with some crafted items and the torghast neck and cape.

Yesterday I did my weeklies and queued for both just to shorten the wait. The normal run was a nightmare. Heroic was smooth as silk. Leveling in dungeons totally has a place in the game. So the dev time lost is minimal.

[VinceVega]

Base Mythic (M0) are above most players capabilities? Are you serious?

Yes i am. There are MAAAANY players in the game who you will never have contact with. Who will never write in a forum or look up anything out of the game.
Look up the 80 20 5 rule.

Hell i work with two people who are still leveling and another who tried mythic0, said it was too much of a hazzle for him and just stuck with LFR/LFD.
They don't complain. They play what they are able to and are content with it.

Many people don't care about better gear or hiogher difficulties. It is enough for them to SEE the content. No reason to take away their game if we have enough on the higher difficulties.

[Azerate]

The current options for difficulty work well. This has been stated numerous times by blizzard who have all the analytics. Just because a couple guys think that some difficulties are redundant, simply because they don't cater to them, it doesn't mean they should be deleted.

Base Mythic (M0) are above most players capabilities? Are you serious?

There's a lot of casuals / friends in my guild who absolutely refuse to join a mythic 0 dungeon. Explaining to them that it's not much harder than heroic is utterly futile. It's called mythic, it requires manual grouping - their answer is no.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Base Mythic (M0) are above most players capabilities? Are you serious?

You have no idea how many people were whining on the forums when queuing for heroic in Warlords of Draenor required you to achieve proving grounds Silver. Normal dungeons were filled with players who just couldn't do it.

[Niwes]

imo they need a complete new layer structure, especially since TF no longer exists. since there is literally no gain in running „lower difficulty“ dungeons and the concept per se is outdated and not matches modern environment.

i would change the structure according to player types instead difficulty. more on terms of LFD dungeons, PreMade Dungeons via Tool, PreMade Dungeons via Guild/Realm (all 5 players are from same realm or same guild).

i have some things in mind here but no time to type them in. i let your imagination build the concepts. my core statement is just this:

get rid of a [difficulty, „one after another“, item level]-based mindset and switch to a more playertype-focused mindset when designing structure of dungeon layers.