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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Numbers change, looks don't (not in video games anyway). I wouldn't worry about it.
    The point is that people clearly picks covenants based on performance. The whole systems is a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Some people may feel that way. I personally don't, I took the covenant I identified with most even though I will be raiding.
    "Some people.."

    It's clearly the vast majority who picks covenant based on performance. Blizzard have completely failed to make it about identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Doesnt matter unless you are doing world first.
    That's not the point.

    Blizzard have created a system which should be about identity. But the vast majority of players are picking covenants based on performance. It's not about "world first". Blizzard have failed in creating a system that's about identity.

  2. #202
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    I ain't a mix/max'er... so I don't care, yet have no problems doing Mythic Raiding... I ain't a bleeding edge runner for world first, and most of us aren't either so...

    What I hate about Covenants though are the rare drops that drop only for specific covenants, such as Hopecrusher Gargon [Venthyr] or Trophy of the Reborn Bonelord [Necrolords]... so if you're a collector you're forced to have alts :/
    Yeah I can understand that but maintaining alts is fairly basic in this expansion. There's no power you're chasing to maintain viability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The point is that people clearly picks covenants based on performance. The whole systems is a joke.

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    "Some people.."

    It's clearly the vast majority who picks covenant based on performance. Blizzard have completely failed to make it about identity.

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    That's not the point.

    Blizzard have created a system which should be about identity. But the vast majority of players are picking covenants based on performance. It's not about "world first". Blizzard have failed in creating a system that's about identity.
    Do you have supporting evidence that the "vast majority" of people chose it for performance over aesthetics? Based on what you've linked. I see a few raiders chose it. As I stated, it's purely confirmation bias. I chose a covenant I liked. I didn't know it was the top performing when I selected it. I actually chose the covenant months ago. It was 3rd in DPS when I looked at it before SL launched.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-08 at 09:10 AM.

  3. #203
    The Patient Yuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Original thread 10 minutes after Covenants were announced
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nts-now/348779

    and now the results:
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...io#wowranks-io

    As has been predicted from the day this feature was announced even with heavy nerfs people would have to be willing to purposely gimp themselves in PVP and PVE just for an aesthetic choice. Once Raider IO takes over the expansions tomorrow this will get far worse not including raiding.

    Out of the source information I can count 10 specs (not at 50% concentrated) that have an option on what they want to play but some of those are before impending nerfs that will force the players to optimize their Covenant choices.

    Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.
    You should actually play the game, it's good. And also shouldn't link your characters showing that you abandoned Shadowlands 10min after announcement lmao.
    Don't let min-maxers ruin Shadowlands for us! Rise up, fellow casuals!

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    Yeah I can understand that but maintaining alts is fairly basic in this expansion.
    No, it's absolutely not and I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Maintaining alts this expansion is a very extensive task (I'm doing this myself right now). The need to get your Soul Ash cap weekly is a super boring grind (unless you like the grind that Torghast is) that will take a minimum of 1-2 hours (that might not sound much per week, but where time is rare and no fun detected it becomes a chore). And even if people say you don't need to get your Anima to keep up, the weekly 1000 Anima quests is pretty mandatory and another funless grind of WQ that will take a minimum of another 1-2 hours. The one thing you might pass on is The Maw (thank god) and Stygia.

    I fail to see how maintaining an alt in Shadowlands is easier than in BfA.

    Nevertheless, it's still mind-boggling how so many in this thread fail to see the issues with Covenants and player power attached to it.
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  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    No, it's absolutely not and I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Maintaining alts this expansion is a very extensive task (I'm doing this myself right now). The need to get your Soul Ash cap weekly is a super boring grind (unless you like the grind that Torghast is) that will take a minimum of 1-2 hours (that might not sound much per week, but where time is rare and no fun detected it becomes a chore). And even if people say you don't need to get your Anima to keep up, the weekly 1000 Anima quests is pretty mandatory and another funless grind of WQ that will take a minimum of another 1-2 hours. The one thing you might pass on is The Maw (thank god) and Stygia.

    I fail to see how maintaining an alt in Shadowlands is easier than in BfA.

    Nevertheless, it's still mind-boggling how so many in this thread fail to see the issues with Covenants and player power attached to it.
    You get 750 Anima from a weekly dungeon quest in Theater of Pain, then you do a daily 250 Anima elite WQ and you have 1000 Anima. Normal/HC dungeon is done in like 20 minutes and another 5 minutes for the WQ. You can even do the WQ while you wait for the queue to pop, you can queue for normal + heroic simulatainously so even as DPS it won't be long. Even if you don't want to do the weekly dungeon quest, 4 days of 250 Anima WQ is like what? 30 minutes top? 30 minutes to collect 1000 anima, where do you get your 1-2 hours from? Do you grind treasure chests and rares? xD

  6. #206
    So there's two groups of people on covenants:

    People who think that, for instance, in Counter Strike if you chose terrorists you could only get a pistol - it's still viable (yes, you can still play and kill people and win rounds) and doesn't matter unless you compete in professional league.

    And people who think that this is complete bullcrap.

    No amount of arguments will persuade these groups.
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  7. #207
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    No, it's absolutely not and I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Maintaining alts this expansion is a very extensive task (I'm doing this myself right now). The need to get your Soul Ash cap weekly is a super boring grind (unless you like the grind that Torghast is) that will take a minimum of 1-2 hours (that might not sound much per week, but where time is rare and no fun detected it becomes a chore). And even if people say you don't need to get your Anima to keep up, the weekly 1000 Anima quests is pretty mandatory and another funless grind of WQ that will take a minimum of another 1-2 hours. The one thing you might pass on is The Maw (thank god) and Stygia.

    I fail to see how maintaining an alt in Shadowlands is easier than in BfA.

    Nevertheless, it's still mind-boggling how so many in this thread fail to see the issues with Covenants and player power attached to it.
    I'm running 2 atm and 2 hours a week for soul ash is a lot less than the daily grind required for both Artifact Power and Azerite power. Your Anima can be dealt with in 2 dungeons and a few world quests (over an entire week). There is no essence grind.

    Ofc it has a min level of effort required to achieve something. But saying it's the same as BfA is hyperbole.

    We also see that certain covenants offer more. Most of us just don't care though mate. It's potential DPS for the few raiding at the very top.

    The problem with the gains in covenants is it's all potential. And the system is no better or worse than when professions gave buffs and people felt 2 gather professions were mandatory to maximize there ability. I just don't remember half the playerbase going batshit because Skinning gave them 50 crit rating and Herbalism didn't.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-08 at 09:41 AM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Blizzard have failed in creating a system that's about identity.
    It was never about identity exclusively, it was about meaningful choice. One could argue that choosing the most powerful option is a very meaningful choice and in a way it gives your character identity. It doesn't matter what everyone else picked, the fact that you made a choice at all is what's important.

    It will be interesting to see how a fully fleshed out system will look in the next expansion. This feels more like a testing ground for a much larger system aimed at giving us a vast amount of permanent choice.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin83 View Post
    After reading couple of your posts I have to ask you what you believe what stats or factors that decide what constitutes performance.

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    Your entire argument here can be anwered with that this is a community problem and not a Blizzard one.

    Blizzards job is to make everything viable and also entertaining. They don't regard their own game a competition where people should minmax because most people dont play the game that way.
    different oppinion here.

    you can cut out ANY performance related task and it still sucks. here is why:

    lets say Blizzard found Harry Potters Wand and magically balanced every stuff of Covenenats 100% perfect. this means it is a completely free choice of Covenant without any performance reason. but Covenenats still suck, because now you have to choose between lore/aesthetics and gameplay of Covenants.

    Maybe you love Night Fae, but their abilities bring no fun to you at all? Or you really like that one Covenant ability so much, lets say from Venthir, but you hate to be Venthir, cause your toon is a Druid ?

    Result: You do not even need the performance thing, to realize in seconds that this design sucks. adding balancing descision, is just the cherry on top of it. a cherry that smells like butt.

    and on top of top of that there is another fact: in BfA you had to play 2 toons to see the full story and get the most out of wow (if you are someone wanna see it all): Alliance and Horde. Now you have to either play 4 toons or invest huuuuge effort into 1 char, to see all 4 Covenant parts. What a cheap fucked up way, to bound players with recycled shit. my question here: what would you say, when you buy a car and someone told you „ey, just for info: if you wanna also see how car feels when driving 100 mph+ or you wanna use gps, you have to buy the car again.“ ?

    where other ppl say „but but but ... meaningful choice“ i say „Covenants are just a lousy compromise, makin no one happy.“

    but thats just my opinion.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-12-08 at 09:55 AM.

  10. #210
    The Lightbringer Strawberry's Avatar
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    I'm a high ilvl healer. Pugs don't have balls to deny me entrance just because I have "the wrong covenant".

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    maybe in WORLD first kill, sure, bcs at their skill lvl it have actual impact, and if that is your aspiration you would choose "best" covenant even if the difference was less than 0,5%...
    for everybody else damage is NOT "number one thing that matters" in any way... following tactics is
    if you dont know that you either never progressed past LFR or are being pulled through by others
    Being lectured by players who have only ever played in video guilds at best sure is a trip lols

  12. #212
    I just want to meet someone who took necrolord DH. I want to know why? That spell is god awful.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holycloud View Post
    Ugh - You made me have to log in.

    Very simply solutions for 90% of the instances regarding play how you want to.
    A. Have a guild or friends that don't care - play how you want to.
    B. Search for maybe 20% more time and you will find the desired groups; or do more content to break the "min/max barriers"
    C. If you are part of the "1%ers at the very top" which I assume you are given you have your Raider.io scores in your signatures - the pick the covenant you hate the most and make a blog post about it so you get clicks, comments, and other people to complain with you.... wait...

    Here is hoping you're all having fun in Shadowlands like I am. Been having a lot of fun with the Covenants I picked based on what I like!
    Completely agree! I chose Necrolord for my orc shaman because I thought it was the best fit. Looking over the rankings now I can see that I made a solid dps choice, but I simply chose them as I liked that covenant the best.

  14. #214
    it doesnt say anything. You still have no clue why players picked different covenants.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    So there's two groups of people on covenants:

    People who think that, for instance, in Counter Strike if you chose terrorists you could only get a pistol - it's still viable (yes, you can still play and kill people and win rounds) and doesn't matter unless you compete in professional league.

    And people who think that this is complete bullcrap.

    No amount of arguments will persuade these groups.
    So true.

    Most of the "pistol camp" advice is also completely unhelpful. For example "find a guild". Yeah, last 5 years I was in 4 different guilds and sooner or later they had an issue with me not playing a fotm class. "Find a guild" is a cop out advice, also usually applies to a level of progression where people don't even finish content or take 3 months to get AOTC.

    Another fallacy is the belief that if you put 10 times more effort and achieve less than average result, it's still fine. Yeah, I'd like to play a Necrolord Hunter because chakram is cool, so what, it still sucks despite buffs.

    Also I have no idea why Blizzard buffed Night Fae so much in the last balancing pass. I have a friend who is a power gamer - he will always pick "what is best". He wanted to make 4 alts 1 for each covenant. Night Fae? Easy, vast majority of dps specs play it. Necrolord? He made Unholy DK. Venthyr? Uuuh, hard find, basically it's between Warrior or Enh shaman. Kyrian? After gutting of Pelagos now suddenly it comes out Kyrian covenant abilities are not that good for dps... Which dps even goes for Kyrian? Except destrolock, because he said angelic Warlock looks dumb and he's not gonna play that.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Being lectured by players who have only ever played in video guilds at best sure is a trip lols
    then stop lecturing people

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    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    So there's two groups of people on covenants:

    People who think that, for instance, in Counter Strike if you chose terrorists you could only get a pistol - it's still viable (yes, you can still play and kill people and win rounds) and doesn't matter unless you compete in professional league.

    And people who think that this is complete bullcrap.

    No amount of arguments will persuade these groups.
    well good CS player will wipe the floor with you even with only pistol
    imbecile who cant even aim wont kill you even if you have knife and he is armed to the teeth

    so yes, as said milion times before, SKILL is the most important, not theoreticaly better performing "tools"
    on the absolute peak, where ALL players are highly skilled, sure the tools will make a noticeable difference, for rest of the people not so much

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    then stop lecturing people

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    well good CS player will wipe the floor with you even with only pistol
    imbecile who cant even aim wont kill you even if you have knife and he is armed to the teeth

    so yes, as said milion times before, SKILL is the most important, not theoreticaly better performing "tools"
    on the absolute peak, where ALL players are highly skilled, sure the tools will make a noticeable difference, for rest of the people not so much
    The only one trying to lecture here is you claiming that people who have done progression at a high level aka not just following videos care more about other things than damage. None of these covenants provide raid wide cooldowns which would be the only thing that can trump damage. A minimal shield that is even weaker without a body to pull from is not worth a 10 to 20% dps loss. You have quite literally zero idea what you are talking about and are trying to talk down to someone who has actually raided at that level.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    I just want to meet someone who took necrolord DH. I want to know why? That spell is god awful.
    As a necrolord spriest I've seen a few DK's - the armor set looks amazing for a DK

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    Are we seriously mad there's a best choice?

    Did anyone expect all covenants having 25% of players?

    Honestly those stats are actually far better than I would've though, it shows that clearly nearly all specs have plenty of choice

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    then stop lecturing people

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    well good CS player will wipe the floor with you even with only pistol
    imbecile who cant even aim wont kill you even if you have knife and he is armed to the teeth

    so yes, as said milion times before, SKILL is the most important, not theoreticaly better performing "tools"
    on the absolute peak, where ALL players are highly skilled, sure the tools will make a noticeable difference, for rest of the people not so much
    A good cs player with a glock will lose to a mediocre one with an ak unless they completely get the drop on them. Wow is flat out not a hard game in pve the primary difficulty comes from maximizing play without tunneling and thereby being bad and taking extra damage. Most people can execute a max rotation on a dummy it's when you throw in other stuff to pay attention to that their performance drops however it's absolutely still best to have the maximum possibly ceiling regardless of if you are Lolites or Thd.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    well good CS player will wipe the floor with you even with only pistol
    imbecile who cant even aim wont kill you even if you have knife and he is armed to the teeth

    so yes, as said milion times before, SKILL is the most important, not theoreticaly better performing "tools"
    on the absolute peak, where ALL players are highly skilled, sure the tools will make a noticeable difference, for rest of the people not so much
    I mean what the fuck? You compare different players? Why? Why? Like, why? How?

    I'm and vast majority are not schizophreniacs, we are ONE player. And this one player will have 300 dps difference right now with poor gear without scaling. He's half as bad as normal people? 150 dps difference. Like, fuck, my skill in necrolords is the same as my skill in venthyr covenants. Fuck. Differently skilled players will behave differently - yes. Yes. Duh doi. Get your fucking nobel prize for this grand discovery you seem literally everyone somehow misses. We're talking about the same player and how he gains or loses dps because covenants are shit balanced. Fuck.

    ---

    Please, can someone explain to him that we are talking about covenants - how choice affects the one player, not about how others are performing?
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

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