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  1. #241
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    1. To choose a Covenant because of looks means during raid, mythic or pvp you are purposely choosing to gimp your team. On DPS check bosses or any boss for that matter this is easily the difference between an easy kill or struggling for 4+ hours.
    Absolute kek-worthy that claim of yours that picking the """wrong""" covenant means you'll be struggling to kill a raid boss and wiping constantly for 4+ hours, instead of "easily killing it", by which I believe you mean one-shotting it.

    Such hyperbole does nothing but hurt your own argument.
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  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Seiryu99 View Post
    Night fae for balance IS the best though through sims....you're right though its just a coincidence a vast majority of the specs chose the best performing covenant, definitely not some kind of trend. It's literally the same in every kind of game for every kind of player whether they are casual or "mythic" level. If anything MORE casuals would pick the "best" performing (insert any game mechanic that alters performance here). If a person had 0 clue on how to play a game or were playing a new game what are the chances they just google "best (blank) for my class" whether that be gems, enchants, stats, covenants, or talents. If that wasnt the case tier lists wouldnt exist and be as popular as they are along with sites like icy veins/wowhead guides or eventhubs. Things just dont coincidentally end up being picked 60% more often than something else just because people happened to like it more aesthetically even if people do happen to pick it for that reason. What could be said is that the 3000 people that picked necrolord for balance either dont care/know or actually chose it for aesthetic>performance reasons.
    right so the fact that largest disparity have specs with aesthetics and performance BOTH being behind single covenant is proving those people chosen based ONLY on performance, but the fact that 10 specs have less than a half people (meaning majority picked different) in most picked covenant (not always the best, mind you), which goes completely against that opinion is not important and proves nothing... sure that doesnt sound like biased opinion at all...

    actualy this whole statistics proves nothing, as we have no fucking clue what criteria people used, or whether they are actualy "registered" with the spec they actualy chosen for (as people do play multiple specs), or how many characters the stats are missing...
    but it definitely shows largest disparities for specs that have performance and aesthetics aligned... does that prove anything? no, but is it coincidence? i realy doubt that

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    Quote Originally Posted by oblakoff View Post
    The stats looks great.

    Majority of DKs either choose Venthyr or Necrolord which is most thematically fitting despite the goddamned fairies being OP by far
    Majority of Paladins choose Kyrian which is most thematically fitting
    Majority of Druids choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting
    Majority of Hunters choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting

    The other not so clearly defined thematically classes choose whatever the hell they wanted

    Which once again proves nobody in their right mind, except world first raiders and most prominently - world first wannabies, will choose covenant based on minor dps increase.
    no no, dont you know, people choosing most thematicaly fitting covenant did it bcs of performance!

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by oblakoff View Post
    The stats looks great.

    Majority of DKs either choose Venthyr or Necrolord which is most thematically fitting despite the goddamned fairies being OP by far
    Majority of Paladins choose Kyrian which is most thematically fitting
    Majority of Druids choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting
    Majority of Hunters choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting

    The other not so clearly defined thematically classes choose whatever the hell they wanted

    Which once again proves nobody in their right mind, except world first raiders and most prominently - world first wannabies, will choose covenant based on minor dps increase.
    This argument is not really working. You deliberately left out obvious choices to not contradict your argument.

    Thematically Warlocks fit very good for Necrolords (death and demons), Warriors fit very good for Necrolords too (you know, they're made of the strongest and bravest warriors...), Monks fit very good for Night Fae... yet those options are barely taken.

    The reason why so many Paladins picked Kyrian is easy: their Covenant skill is by far the best. Same goes with Druids and Hunters (as we see now, those Covenant-Class-combos are overperforming).

    We're not talking about 3-5% differences. And people, even the other 99%, most likely chose their Covenant because of performance - if visuals and skills line up perfectly for some classes it's coincidence. Would a majority of Night Fae Druids choose another Covenant if there would be a better option than Nightfae? Maybe not the majority, but a huge part of that. And that's exactly the problem so many have with this system.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2020-12-08 at 03:29 PM.
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  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    My point was is that on a wow addon site the top downloaded addons are performance addons. Compare it to All the things. Or can I mog it, or rarity. Of course there is overlap but denying that people do care about their performance is very disingenuous. Even when you level, if you pop a bigger damage session, people start inspecting you.
    Mhm, you didn't see my edit I guess. Because, I do agree with you, people do care about their performance, so they install damage meters. But my point is, not so many care about it so much that it affects how they play the game, and do choices with other things than minmaxing in mind.

    There is a big difference in caring about performance and minmaxing. Significant difference. Most players, I think, like you, care about performance. But a minor portion of the player base care about minmaxing.
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  5. #245
    Shows the opposite for me.

    Blood DK
    Venthyr 23,863 50.36%
    Necrolord 10,962 23.13%
    Kyrian 9,138 19.29%

    With Kyrian being the optimal choice for Blood DKs this is showing a lot of people chose flavor over numbers.

    Protection Paladin
    Kyrian 64,910 77.44%
    Venthyr 14,419 17.20%

    Same goes with Prot pallies. Kyrian fits the theme, Venthyr preforms better.
    Last edited by Mercarcher; 2020-12-08 at 05:10 PM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Method and other world first guild kills bosses with garbage gear and they in fact DO need dps. Other wanna be elitist don't understand that having +10 ilvl difference vs method doesn't make them have the same dps issues. You are not in the same position as them, don't even compare yourself and your guild situation to world first race.

    And i don't think standing in shit is good, that is just you projecting your opinions.
    Again I have raided at that level I don't anymore but I still get CE in a decent amount of time on a couple day a week. It has nothing to do with being a "wannabe elitist" it has to do with not making my raid carry me as you seem fine with. If you aren't taking the best options you are being actively detrimental to your raid compared to what you could do and making others pick up your slack. If you are taking a covenant that does 500 less dps you specifically are being detrimental to your raid compared to what you could be. I don't understand the selfish mentality that players like you and the other one have you are playing a group based game and are actively choosing to be worse. In the cases where it's 50 to 100 dps difference sure choose rp but when it's 500 plus you are kind of being a jerk to your raid not to take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldar45 View Post
    Going through a few of these really fast...

    Okay, 400 DPS.

    For the vast majority of people, this should not matter.
    400 dps is a 10% damage loss right now lols?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Absolute kek-worthy that claim of yours that picking the """wrong""" covenant means you'll be struggling to kill a raid boss and wiping constantly for 4+ hours, instead of "easily killing it", by which I believe you mean one-shotting it.

    Such hyperbole does nothing but hurt your own argument.
    If it's the entire raid at an average of 400 dps across 16 players averaging out tank and heal damage that's around 6400 dps which is basically having an extra raid member lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercarcher View Post
    Shows the opposite for me.

    Blood DK
    Venthyr 23,863 50.36%
    Necrolord 10,962 23.13%
    Kyrian 9,138 19.29%

    With Kyrian being the optimal choice for Blood DKs this is showing a lot of people chose flavor over numbers.

    Protection Paladin
    Kyrian 64,910 77.44%
    Venthyr 14,419 17.20%

    Same goes with Prot pallies. Kyrian fits the theme, Venthyr preforms better.
    Kyrian is optimal for single target but Venth is better for M+ same for pallies but reversed.

  7. #247
    So right now bloodmallet (idk how accurate it is) shows DPS sims of around 5.4k-6.4k DPS. Covenant difference is STILL ~400 dps The same gap as when they were using lower ilvl and DPS was 4.2k. I think the max is Balance druid with a 600dps Gap between the lowest and highest performing covenant AND soulbind. What this means is it seems the gap is not increasing or if it is not at the same rate as the DPS meaning the further we go the less covenant choice matters.

    The annoying thing is even if this is the case we still have covenant skill flavor vs aesthetic.

    Some covenant abilities are just plain boring. Like DH maldraxus, or Kyrian Druid. So if you want the Aesthetic choice you have to stomach a lame ability you don't like. That is far worse then a <10% dps difference.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldar45 View Post
    Going through a few of these really fast...

    Okay, 400 DPS.

    For the vast majority of people, this should not matter.
    Lol, it definitely matters, 400 dps is a lot on progression... even for casual guilds.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Mhm, you didn't see my edit I guess. Because, I do agree with you, people do care about their performance, so they install damage meters. But my point is, not so many care about it so much that it affects how they play the game, and do choices with other things than minmaxing in mind.

    There is a big difference in caring about performance and minmaxing. Significant difference. Most players, I think, like you, care about performance. But a minor portion of the player base care about minmaxing.
    I can agree with anyone's point of view except the black and white binary ones (ie everyone must pick the best or else the sky will fall or nobody cares about performance, they only care about the looks). Mostly because the initial porposition and advertisement for the covenants were much more meaningful and impactful and strict. Now if you don't like it, you can switch, the abilities and soulbinds were nerfed etc. For everything else: just level an alt and unlock stuff on that char, probably the covenant restrictions will be lifted at some point down the line.
    Last edited by Lei; 2020-12-08 at 06:00 PM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorshen View Post
    Lol, it definitely matters, 400 dps is a lot on progression... even for casual guilds.
    Except it is 400 DPS between the absolute best and absolute worst. I don't think many people are taking the absolute worst just cause they can. The difference between actual covenants on a lot of these is 200 or less.

    And that is assuming BIS gear and maximum renown which you won't have for months.

    Sims are great, but they don't really take into account real world applications.

  11. #251
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercarcher View Post
    Shows the opposite for me.

    Blood DK
    Venthyr 23,863 50.36%
    Necrolord 10,962 23.13%
    Kyrian 9,138 19.29%

    With Kyrian being the optimal choice for Blood DKs this is showing a lot of people chose flavor over numbers.

    Protection Paladin
    Kyrian 64,910 77.44%
    Venthyr 14,419 17.20%

    Same goes with Prot pallies. Kyrian fits the theme, Venthyr preforms better.
    While I agree that lots of people pick aesthetics over power, Kyrian is arguably still better than Venthyr, regardless of sims. The utility of silencing 5 targets at once is amazing, and isn't really something you can factor into a sim.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Again I have raided at that level I don't anymore but I still get CE in a decent amount of time on a couple day a week. It has nothing to do with being a "wannabe elitist" it has to do with not making my raid carry me as you seem fine with. If you aren't taking the best options you are being actively detrimental to your raid compared to what you could do and making others pick up your slack. If you are taking a covenant that does 500 less dps you specifically are being detrimental to your raid compared to what you could be. I don't understand the selfish mentality that players like you and the other one have you are playing a group based game and are actively choosing to be worse. In the cases where it's 50 to 100 dps difference sure choose rp but when it's 500 plus you are kind of being a jerk to your raid not to take it.
    Then you haven't raided at that level. Simple as that, to take top 10 you actually have to play a lot because lack of dps caused by shit gear, will hit a real wall.
    Raiding couple days a week is already not even close to that level.'

    Also don't pull numbers out of your ass because its not 500dps. At least not for vast majority of classes. And still mechanical skill is more important.
    I would take mechanical god with wrongest covenant over normal player with best covenant all day any day. Any competent RL would tell you the same.
    And no, people don't have the same skill, there is no such thing as two people with same amount of skill and different covenant.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorshen View Post
    Lol, it definitely matters, 400 dps is a lot on progression... even for casual guilds.
    But most of these groups have other factors impacting performance where covenant choice won't be there. Skill. Specs. Gear. Etc. Most people who raid try to be "optimal" but in my experience that also only goes so far. Is the guild willing to force a person to switch to a higher dps spec? How much do they work with lower skilled members to improve their rotation etc.

    Of course every little bit matters but the covenant choice when compared with everything else is of little importance. It is why something that sims as best isn't always the best choice for everyone to do because the ability to play as perfect as that sim is a major factor. Lower simmed options might be better for some. Take the Legendary effects for example. Reading the Demonology Warlock guides it has recommendations for a few with one recommended as the best passive option. Does it sim lower then others that require you to react? Sure.

    But in practice some may play better with the passive impact that you can largely ignore. The same exists with trinkets. Equip versus on use. Even something like that requires a person to actively be aware and hit the trinket at the right time for the best benefit. In reality does everyone do that? Or do they forget to use it, use it at a bad time, etc.

    So yes while 400 dps is 400 dps. There are still plenty of other factors that need to be overcome before the covenant choice is the only issue. And if Blizzard doesn't balance encounters around picking the best covenant then it is not really a factor. It only exists as a small boost to an already struggling group.
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  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    That a whooping 75% of those DKs did NOT choose what performs best, but what they thought was coolest or most fitting, even though people here claim all the time that "Literally everyone" chooses performance over everything
    I was planning on Night Fae until I leveled my DK and quickly realized that the DND ability sucked in general and I don't want to use it. So I went with Necrolords because the AOE is great and I love that it pulls adds in to me. It felt the best and the looks of the zones and armor were so much cooler.

  15. #255
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    this, if you check the disparity its highest mostly for specs that have aesthetics and performance best corresponding, like most druids go night fae and most paladins go kyrian (actualy i dont think its best for some of the specs)
    when you take holy priest, where necro should be best, its "only" 44%... almost like the performance was NOT the most important criterium for majority...

    but what arguments you can expect from people who dont care about reality but only about their narative...
    If you're playing Holy instead of Disc, performance was probably not your top priority to begin with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    "Restoration Druid has a massive 87.65% of players as Night Fae, and Holy Paladins also has a massive 89% of players as Kyrian. This is likely due to the strength of these Covenant abilities for their spec"

    It's probably due to both of those matching lore and aesthetics to the covenant. People that min-max are a minority. Moat people I know went for their covenant due to story, aesthetics or how fun the ability was.
    Possibly it is due to lore/aesthetic, however Night Fae is also best for Feral and Boomkin. So anyone who plays Resto and any spec other than Guardian on 1 char really only had 1 viable Covenant choice.


    The hunter breakdown is probably the most obvious: The vast majority of hunters went with performance, over 90% of BM/MM hunters are Night Fae or Kyrian.

    Ironically Surv does prove a point that players who don't really care about performance do split much more evenly between the Covenants, and how few people play Surv goes to show that it is a minority of players that ignore performance when making choices.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2020-12-08 at 06:39 PM.
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  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    If you're playing Holy instead of Disc, performance was probably not your top priority to begin with.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Possibly it is due to lore/aesthetic, however Night Fae is also best for Feral and Boomkin. So anyone who plays Resto and any spec other than Guardian on 1 char really only had 1 viable Covenant choice.


    The hunter breakdown is probably the most obvious: The vast majority of hunters went with performance, over 90% of BM/MM hunters are Night Fae or Kyrian.

    Ironically Surv does prove a point that players who don't really care about performance do split much more evenly between the Covenants, and how few people play Surv goes to show that it is a minority of players that ignore performance when making choices.
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  17. #257
    About fun. I have fun when I do completive dps with my mates from raid and I don't hinder my guild. So yeah for "fun" I will force myself in best covenant.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    It's probably due to both of those matching lore and aesthetics to the covenant. People that min-max are a minority. Moat people I know went for their covenant due to story, aesthetics or how fun the ability was.
    I went Necrolord on my Elemental Shaman mainly because it just integrates into my rotation better than the others do. That it's one of the better covenants for my spec is secondary. It just works. Also, I already have plans to have alts with each of the three other covenants, so I'll see all of them before I'm done.

  19. #259
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    If it's the entire raid at an average of 400 dps across 16 players averaging out tank and heal damage that's around 6400 dps which is basically having an extra raid member lol
    Yeah, no. Even if the entire raid has the """wrong""" covenant, it still won't be anywhere near the difference between "one-shot kill and 4+ hours of wiping" on a boss.
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  20. #260
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You are assigning motivation where you have no evidence for it whatsoever.
    Right, it just so happens that literally the worst hunter spec has a fraction of the players of the other two specs and a much more even Covenant distribution.

    My speculation is very reasonable considering just how bad Surv is compared to other melee, and how bad it is relative to BM/MM. If fantasy were the major deciding factor then we wouldn't see such a large gap in Covenant distribution between MM+BM against Surv because the Covenants are relatively close in value for all 3 specs.

    The breakdown: Night Fae/Kyrian/Necrolord/Venthyr

    BM: 75/15/5/5

    MM: 60/32/4/5

    Surv: 48/22/17/12

    I'm aware they don't all add up to 100%, I'm rounding for the sake of making it easier to read and to highlight the obviously enormous discrepancy in the Covenant choice distribution. It is speculation, but it isn't groundless speculation.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2020-12-08 at 08:21 PM.
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