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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Doesnt matter unless you are doing world first.
    Not really with hunter I like Venthyr armor looks but the talents is so bad compare to others.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Quite impressive that they're able to gather months worth of gear in a single reset. They must have like 50 alts each and sleep 15 minutes per day.
    I'm unsure how long they sleep but usually its 6 alts and 20million gold a pop

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    So to be clear, since you don't seem to get it - the data you posted is irrelevant to this conversation. Covenants did not exist. At the time of this thread posting, there were zero M+ runs completed. Any analysis of M+ is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, since it did not exist.
    Covenants did exist at the time of this thread posting. The reason why my data is out of date is because like MANY others I am watching from the sidelines. Plenty of us jumped on board day 1 of BFA just to find out the MMO was a mess until the x.1 patch. The big fear with Shadowlands that has been spoken about by many is the fear of pigeonholing.

    Since Covenants are the foundation of the entire expansion with everything else being built on top of that simple choice the concept of pigeonholing has been continues to be a fear for a lot of people. There is nothing remotely about Kyrian that could possibly make me want to play WoW and have anything that resembles fun but as people can see from the information available Kyrian is really the only choice in a performance based MMO.

    We shall see how the data changes now that heroic and Mythic +10 are unlocked but I expect to see it shift further towards min/max potential for each spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except that is not what the OP said:
    If you have played in low tier or mid tier progression guilds you know they do not expect perfection and are mostly happy that people show up so I doubt they care about Covenant choice or min/max but the reality is the wrong choice could result in hours added to an otherwise straight forward run.

    Given what I am seeing from tuning of people running Castle Nathria heroic is not easy by any means at the current gear level. This thread is not designed to bash on Blizzard but to point out hard data that they were wrong when they told people not to be concerned about pigeonholing based on "what is best".

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Covenants did exist at the time of this thread posting. The reason why my data is out of date is because like MANY others I am watching from the sidelines. Plenty of us jumped on board day 1 of BFA just to find out the MMO was a mess until the x.1 patch. The big fear with Shadowlands that has been spoken about by many is the fear of pigeonholing.

    Since Covenants are the foundation of the entire expansion with everything else being built on top of that simple choice the concept of pigeonholing has been continues to be a fear for a lot of people. There is nothing remotely about Kyrian that could possibly make me want to play WoW and have anything that resembles fun but as people can see from the information available Kyrian is really the only choice in a performance based MMO.

    We shall see how the data changes now that heroic and Mythic +10 are unlocked but I expect to see it shift further towards min/max potential for each spec.
    The data he posted was from when covenants did not exist. I did not say that at the time of this thread posting covenants did not exist. He linked data from last expansion and pretended it was from this data collection, which is quite comical. I always understood his points and was trying to help him understand but to be honest now I think he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    Not really with hunter I like Venthyr armor looks but the talents is so bad compare to others.
    They are not that bad and will most likely have very little impact on your performance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Covenants did exist at the time of this thread posting. The reason why my data is out of date is because like MANY others I am watching from the sidelines. Plenty of us jumped on board day 1 of BFA just to find out the MMO was a mess until the x.1 patch. The big fear with Shadowlands that has been spoken about by many is the fear of pigeonholing.

    Since Covenants are the foundation of the entire expansion with everything else being built on top of that simple choice the concept of pigeonholing has been continues to be a fear for a lot of people. There is nothing remotely about Kyrian that could possibly make me want to play WoW and have anything that resembles fun but as people can see from the information available Kyrian is really the only choice in a performance based MMO.

    We shall see how the data changes now that heroic and Mythic +10 are unlocked but I expect to see it shift further towards min/max potential for each spec.



    If you have played in low tier or mid tier progression guilds you know they do not expect perfection and are mostly happy that people show up so I doubt they care about Covenant choice or min/max but the reality is the wrong choice could result in hours added to an otherwise straight forward run.

    Given what I am seeing from tuning of people running Castle Nathria heroic is not easy by any means at the current gear level. This thread is not designed to bash on Blizzard but to point out hard data that they were wrong when they told people not to be concerned about pigeonholing based on "what is best".
    Why do you trust other peoples opinions of what is best like its gospel to you?

    Player perception is quite often wrong as been proven many times in the past.

    Also. What makes you think you are so good at the game that your choice of covenants will have the impact you think it will? Is your execution of the class and your ability to use it to its maximum potential that good?

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    Right, the point of the post is that numbers don't show reasons. These numbers say a lot, but they're not really definitive proof of anything, for all we know 50% of druids/paladins picked NF/Kyrian to RP. People just love having numbers they can attach to things to try and push their narrative, but at the end of the day all we know is how many people picked a covenant and that it.

    Every single druid spec has Night Fae as the most picked by far, but Night Fae isn't the best option for all their specs. Balance druids are a staggering 68% Night Fae compared to 28% for Kyrian (their best according to WoWhead). So, yeah, numbers are great but over all they aren't super helpful. It's the same for Guardian, Night Fae is strong but Kyrian is rated better in both raids and M+, and yet it's 48/27 in favor of NF.
    Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.

  7. #327
    If Blizzard removed the mobility actives from Venthyr and Night Fae then we'd have much less of an issue, you know it ...we all know it.
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  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If Blizzard removed the mobility actives from Venthyr and Night Fae then we'd have much less of an issue, you know it ...we all know it.
    I thought the same but the venthyr one is, at bes, covenient, is not game breaking at all.

    Night fae can be a little bit better, but even then, its not such a big deal, I mostly see it bing used in between mobs or in the mall.

    The venthyr one I just use to get to some places slightly faster in the exploration territory, I rarely use it in dungeons, that's for sure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.
    I think, one thing that really affect it, more than RP or maybe even performance (IMO), is how it plays.

    EG: I left venthyr in my BM monk for kyrian simply because weapons of order feels better to play than fallen order. I imagine it's the case for many players.
    It is also one of the reasons why I picked venthyr for my Blood DK, swarming mists simply feels better to play than abomination's limb.
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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Some people may feel that way. I personally don't, I took the covenant I identified with most even though I will be raiding.
    And your raid thanks you for that

    I'm being cheeky, but that's the problem with a system like this. It's not just a personal choice. Sure you can take what you find most aesthetically pleasing, but if you play the game with a group of people at even a semi-competitive level that becomes a selfish choice since another choice can benefit the group much more. That's why me and 90% of holy paladins picked Kyrian. In the end, what I want is less important than what my group needs. It's unfortunate to have to make that compromise. I would have much rather played necrolord or venthyr if it was purely a personal choice, but when they weave player power into choices like this, they become more than just personal decision. I seriously don't know what I'd do without Divine Toll for raid and dungeon. I'd feel like a complete ass without it.
    Last edited by BananaHandsB; 2020-12-10 at 02:38 AM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    No, the data is showing the vast majority of players even if they aren't hardcore raiders picking the covenant that has the best performance per WoWhead/Icy-Veins. I tried to not do that but holy shit am I kicking myself.
    The argument is not really that. Everybody knew thats what people would do. The question is if they gain anything by it or if the guides are right.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Except there not... they are doing them maybe one or two pieces less then those that clear. Yes that adds up on a per raid level especially trinkets and weapons but it's not some colossal difference till it hits thing like cloak levels
    Dude they have absolute shit gear, minus 10 from what mythic was rewarding, even when titanforging was still a thing. Check what gear method had on first kill on jaina BoD. It is clear that you just have no idea what are you talkin about.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHandsB View Post
    And your raid thanks you for that

    I'm being cheeky, but that's the problem with a system like this. It's not just a personal choice. Sure you can take what you find most aesthetically pleasing, but if you play the game with a group of people at even a semi-competitive level that becomes a selfish choice since another choice can benefit the group much more. That's why me and 90% of holy paladins picked Kyrian. In the end, I want what's best for my raid and M+ group, not what I think looks the coolest. It's unfortunate to have to make that compromise. I would have much rather played necrolord or venthyr if it was purely a personal choice, but when they weave player power into choices like this, they become more than just personal decision, as it can effect my ability to perform optimally for the groups I play with. I seriously don't know what I'd do without Divine Toll for raid and dungeon.
    I dont really understand that argument because it has so many flaws.

    The premise of the argument is that your covenant choice the only thing you bring to the raid. That is far from the case.

    Another premise is that the covenant choice is very important to your players performance. Sure, it can do 5 or 10 percent more dps, but is your 5 or 10 percent more or less dps what is going to inflict on your guilds overall performance. No its not.

    All guilds have certain things they accept by every raider. They might accept you have to work every 5th raid, or that you might experience lag, or that you don't read up on all the tactics

    These are things that affect your overall performance more than your choice of covenant.

    Yet, why are you being selfish keeping that raidspot? Why not hand it over to someone else if you are so afraid of not being selfish.

    Every guild that cares about performance should want their members to enjoy the game as much as possible. People peform better that way.

  13. #333
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    Numbers be damned. I'm going with the ones that match each character's personal story. So what if I'm 5% less optimal if I'm enjoying myself. Games are about fun, not optimization.
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  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHandsB View Post
    And your raid thanks you for that

    I'm being cheeky, but that's the problem with a system like this. It's not just a personal choice. Sure you can take what you find most aesthetically pleasing, but if you play the game with a group of people at even a semi-competitive level that becomes a selfish choice since another choice can benefit the group much more. That's why me and 90% of holy paladins picked Kyrian. In the end, what I want is less important than what my group needs. It's unfortunate to have to make that compromise. I would have much rather played necrolord or venthyr if it was purely a personal choice, but when they weave player power into choices like this, they become more than just personal decision. I seriously don't know what I'd do without Divine Toll for raid and dungeon. I'd feel like a complete ass without it.
    So you change class with every tuning patch? Where is the line to draw between "best choice for me" vs "best choice for my chosen circle of influence" ?
    And what is "semi-competitive" in that matter?
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  15. #335
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.
    Numbers show a lot when they pertain to more specific things and we have more info about the numbers themselves. We don't have any of that, we only know which covenants were picked by which class/spec, not why, and why people picked their covenant is the subject of this thread. Nothing short of a mass survey of the actual population, not just on sites like MMO where min/maxers run rampant, would give us a breakdown of what people are trying to say these numbers show, and it's incredibly unlikely we will ever get that.

  16. #336
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    If you have played in low tier or mid tier progression guilds you know they do not expect perfection and are mostly happy that people show up so I doubt they care about Covenant choice or min/max but the reality is the wrong choice could result in hours added to an otherwise straight forward run.

    Given what I am seeing from tuning of people running Castle Nathria heroic is not easy by any means at the current gear level. This thread is not designed to bash on Blizzard but to point out hard data that they were wrong when they told people not to be concerned about pigeonholing based on "what is best".
    And none of that changes what I said regarding your horrendous hyperbole.
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  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.
    riiiight so you and op and others interpreting specs that have BOTH aesthetics and performance best for the same covenant as proof of everyone choosing based on performance is CORRECT INTERPRETATION?
    no, its absolutely incorrect, just to justify your biased point of view, and dismising ACTUAL EVIDENCE as you do with frost dk and holy priest (and DOZEN specs that dont even have majority choosing one, let alone the "best" specs) is further proof you are full of shit and dont care about the truth but rather about being right... funny enough your evidence proves you are wrong, but you are just not capable to understand it...

    nevermind, i met enough people like you who will put their fingers into ears close eyes and keep going just to keep the illusion of being right to know you will never learn... so ill just ignore you, you keep telling yourself you are right, maybe at least you will believe it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin83 View Post
    The argument is not really that. Everybody knew thats what people would do. The question is if they gain anything by it or if the guides are right.
    even if the argument was that, "vast majority" for some specs mean 25%...
    10 specs have minority in most chosen (not best mind you) spec, and more are barely about half, which if you consider other reasons than performance shows most people choose whatever they like...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-12-10 at 07:01 AM.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Dude they have absolute shit gear, minus 10 from what mythic was rewarding, even when titanforging was still a thing. Check what gear method had on first kill on jaina BoD. It is clear that you just have no idea what are you talkin about.
    Now you are trying to move the subject I've already shown you your concept was incorrect on znoth.

    As for jaina I will be honest I missed that tier but no world first guilds are not undergeared. Perhaps in terms of people who take till the last month to get ce but there is a golf between them and those who take 6 weeks.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And none of that changes what I said regarding your horrendous hyperbole.
    It is not hyperbole if I am continuing to be proven correct. Only thing I never predicted would be that Blizzard would make the massive mistake of gutting gear acquisition from other sources outside of raiding. That has made the problem FAR FAR worse then normal.

    Typically even a bad guild could clear a boss if they simply over geared it from M +10 loot in BFA. Now with severely nerfed drop rates the reliance on min/max'n to make any progress in even normal mode is required. It is only going to get worse and forget about Mythic + raid pugging much less Heroic unless you see massive nerfs.

    The only solution to the problem is massive nerfs to the content to bring up the bad Covenant choices so that they do not affect performance so much and even then you are still asking people to choose RP over Min/Max. Every single day I am being proven correct on this analysis. The other debate was that PVP would supplement the nerfed drop rates but now that sub Rogues are effectively enraged raid bosses and the new caps it will takes weeks to progress.

    Like a lot of people have said it is a slow moving train wreck that cannot be fixed without severe adjustments in gear acquisition and Covenant unlocking to match their own story narrative.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by De Lupe View Post
    Numbers be damned. I'm going with the ones that match each character's personal story. So what if I'm 5% less optimal if I'm enjoying myself. Games are about fun, not optimization.
    I think more players need to wrap their minds around this and stop chasing the bleeding edge. It's fine if your guild is the World First crowd... you know what you're getting in to there, and you're bound to have your Cov choice dictated to you... but unless your guild/raid group isn't up to that level, why are you sweating it?

    The Covenants are a great mix of personal aesthetic and whoever you're comfortable around.

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