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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Seems like you have never raided at any challenging level that you think good players don't get damage because they don't stand in shit lol. Mite as well not pick any healers to squad or maybe one to keep tank alive.

    People like you keep ending up in guild full of dps whores with no idea about solving problems (tactics lol, wtf is that) so their only solution is to keep banging head against wall. Sad part is that squad keeps rotation fast as more intelligent players keeps leaving to find better guilds until guild falls apart totally. Of course abnormal amount of pull counter is norm so to keep up with "worse" guilds they have to keep playing more.
    If it wasn't for unavoidable damage aka choreographed you could absolutely do this. There is a reason many first kills take place with 1 less healer than a standard kill will have. For example Method ran 2 healers on their queen kill because they needed every scrap of damage and they could trust their players to not take random damage. There is a reason top guilds consistently try to cut down on healers needed it's because damage is what matters unless you are bad and stand in damage. Let me guess you are someone who think corrupted viscera was just damage the healers needed to deal with instead of moving out of it.

    If you think that standing in bad is fine you are the one who hasn't raided at a challenging level there is a reason that failure damage is a stat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    "Restoration Druid has a massive 87.65% of players as Night Fae, and Holy Paladins also has a massive 89% of players as Kyrian. This is likely due to the strength of these Covenant abilities for their spec"

    It's probably due to both of those matching lore and aesthetics to the covenant. People that min-max are a minority. Moat people I know went for their covenant due to story, aesthetics or how fun the ability was.
    So I have an honest question because I honestly don't get it how can you play a game for hours a week possibly tens of hours a week without wanting to have the best performance you can have. Like I get it for people who just use it as an rp tool but for people who actually play the game how can you not want to experiment and do the best you can it doesn't actually make sense to me.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Not A Cat View Post
    What's with the extreme analogy? This is a video game that yes, has competitive aspects to it, but unless you're playing at a certain level (the top 1%) then you can show up to fight a dragon with a suboptimal ability if you like that ability more because it's not going to hinder your progress.
    that analogy is not only extreme, its wrong, if you give two random dudes gun and shovel, in the time the guy with gun would figure out how to use it the guy with shovel would beat him senseless

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    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Well then, that ilvl 10 good looking green - completely viable.

    Literally everything's viable.

    Cool.

    ---

    Can we have a normal topic for this topic without trolls like these?
    well if you and your likes stop trolling we can...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin83 View Post
    Refering to me? I have been doing mythic raiding since Siege of Orgrimmar and all heroic raiding before that.
    well he would rather choose to believe OP whose last raid "progres" was dazaralor LFR and didnt log in since prepatch (or longer judging by his gear)...

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Holycloud View Post
    Ugh - You made me have to log in.

    Very simply solutions for 90% of the instances regarding play how you want to.
    A. Have a guild or friends that don't care - play how you want to.
    B. Search for maybe 20% more time and you will find the desired groups; or do more content to break the "min/max barriers"
    C. If you are part of the "1%ers at the very top" which I assume you are given you have your Raider.io scores in your signatures - the pick the covenant you hate the most and make a blog post about it so you get clicks, comments, and other people to complain with you.... wait...

    Here is hoping you're all having fun in Shadowlands like I am. Been having a lot of fun with the Covenants I picked based on what I like!
    Okay, sorry. Hold up. I get your message and sure, you are correct to some degree with A... but thats about it.

    A. Ah, great. So if i want to play the way i want i am bound to only play with my guild then? What if i dont want to and like to play random sometime or just go mythic without having to hash it out first and gather a group? That sure dies in a time where Raider-Shit-O is around with these covenants then.
    B. Unlikely. This is just not how this ever worked. You are trying to tell me that you find the right group in an environment that does reject people because their itemlevel is only just 5 points over the suggested one instead of 30? That is either naive or purposefully ignorant, mate.
    C. Kinda lame insult, considering his worries are absolutely justified. Your class might not be affected by it, or maybe you just ignore it because you are so... incredibly pleased with everything... but for some classes the covenants make such a huge difference. You can not sit here and giggle about his point while some specs got a 90% covenant pick simply because one choice is so incredibly broken next to others. You wont get away with claiming guide-reading here. This only happens when a benefit is obvious AF, so dont be so smug about it.
    Last edited by SoundOfGuns; 2020-12-08 at 07:24 AM.
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    In 90% of all cases the team is already gimped by people not being that skilled. If you are struggling for 4+ hours because of your groups covenant choices then there is a problem with the group already and not the covenant choices. The numbers don't prove anything because it doesn't take into account any popularity of the choices by themselves or people that blindly follow guides.
    no group will struggle for 4 hours in hc raiding because of "covenant choices" but rahter because "we performed at 20th percentile before choosing covenant and die to stuff on ground " issues

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Original thread 10 minutes after Covenants were announced
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nts-now/348779

    and now the results:
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...io#wowranks-io

    As has been predicted from the day this feature was announced even with heavy nerfs people would have to be willing to purposely gimp themselves in PVP and PVE just for an aesthetic choice. Once Raider IO takes over the expansions tomorrow this will get far worse not including raiding.

    Out of the source information I can count 10 specs (not at 50% concentrated) that have an option on what they want to play but some of those are before impending nerfs that will force the players to optimize their Covenant choices.

    Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.
    This pretty much only affects cutting edge players, whom are not remotely near the majority.

    It's not THAT much of a gimp if you don't pick the overall "best" choice in the vast majority of contexts.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    no group will struggle for 4 hours in hc raiding because of "covenant choices" but rahter because "we performed at 20th percentile before choosing covenant and die to stuff on ground " issues
    pretty much this, but maybe people will use it as scapegoat
    "we are wiping for 4h bcs we are standing in fire, lets blame this dude bcs he does 100less dps due to covenant choice"

    and i just love how people ignore that if someone is so obsesed with "best" covenant choice he wouldnt invite you to pug he would most likely not invite you anyway bcs your class/spec is not "best", and that makes way bigger difference

  7. #187
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Due to the variations in fights sims are often a bit misleading. This is a truth that many know but refuse to accept. They simulate fight conditions that are rare in the game and lead to conclusions about gear that are often at variance with what is really optimal for that fight. In addition to that the quality of sims for the various specs have some variation in quality.

    Generally, far too much reliance is placed on them. It's been this way for years and will remain that way until the game servers are shut down. This is just something that needs to be said once in a while. You're better off to play to have fun and not sweat the details. Leave that to the world-first guilds. They'll have their own ideas about what's best for them and that may be at variance with sims as well.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    This pretty much only affects cutting edge players, whom are not remotely near the majority.

    It's not THAT much of a gimp if you don't pick the overall "best" choice in the vast majority of contexts.
    post is done by someone whose last raid "progres" was dazaralor LFR, cant say im surprised he doesnt understand theoretical DPS is not that important...

  9. #189
    Epic! Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Original thread 10 minutes after Covenants were announced
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nts-now/348779

    and now the results:
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...io#wowranks-io

    As has been predicted from the day this feature was announced even with heavy nerfs people would have to be willing to purposely gimp themselves in PVP and PVE just for an aesthetic choice. Once Raider IO takes over the expansions tomorrow this will get far worse not including raiding.

    Out of the source information I can count 10 specs (not at 50% concentrated) that have an option on what they want to play but some of those are before impending nerfs that will force the players to optimize their Covenant choices.

    Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.
    And people are prepared to be miserable and whine for a 2% buff to their potential DPS/survivability. There's no accounting for Human nature. Play how you want to play?

    Look. We're both old school players. This is no different than when professions offered buff's and perks and people rerolling them for raiding and then complaining about how they're "forced" to take 2 gathering specs or when LW in TBC gave drums and people were "forced" to reroll it. It's always been the case that something offer's a potential benefit over something else. It's the nature of an MMO. There is a clear best talent choice that sims better for your class and spec. There's going to be a covenant that sims better too, you will never achieve a perfect balance.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-08 at 08:06 AM.

  10. #190
    Here's a quick little guide on how to pick the best covenant for you:
    A) Are you in a World top 100 raiding guild? Then pick the covenant that sims the highest.
    or alternatively, which is the case for most people
    B) Pick what you want because it literally does not matter in any shape or form because you're not doing anything remotely competitive to where it would matter.

  11. #191
    OP: People are choosing things and it's not perfectly balanced at 25% for every spec and class... that means Blizzard failed!

    Also OP if everything was perfectly balanced: Covenants aren't interesting enough for multiple people gravitate to one over the others... that means Blizzard failed!

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    If it wasn't for unavoidable damage aka choreographed you could absolutely do this. There is a reason many first kills take place with 1 less healer than a standard kill will have. For example Method ran 2 healers on their queen kill because they needed every scrap of damage and they could trust their players to not take random damage. There is a reason top guilds consistently try to cut down on healers needed it's because damage is what matters unless you are bad and stand in damage. Let me guess you are someone who think corrupted viscera was just damage the healers needed to deal with instead of moving out of it.

    If you think that standing in bad is fine you are the one who hasn't raided at a challenging level there is a reason that failure damage is a stat.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So I have an honest question because I honestly don't get it how can you play a game for hours a week possibly tens of hours a week without wanting to have the best performance you can have. Like I get it for people who just use it as an rp tool but for people who actually play the game how can you not want to experiment and do the best you can it doesn't actually make sense to me.
    Because fun doesn't necessarily mean being the best all the time.

    On my druid for example, I would 100% always pick Night Fae. The story of Ardenweald makes sense from a lore perspective and as a Night Elf I also enjoyed the Tyrande part.

    Convoke the Sporits is a fun ability. Visually it's cool and it's always a surprise what combination of spells you will get. Unlike the other 3 abilities, that in my opinion, are really bland and you barely notice them.

    The mounts and gear also match the druid theme really well.

    I can return your question with a similar one. When you play the game like this for extended periods of time, wouldn't you want fun abilities, nice aesthetics and an interesting story?

    I always love to use this quote.

    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"
    Last edited by Ragnarohk; 2020-12-08 at 08:16 AM.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    that analogy is not only extreme, its wrong, if you give two random dudes gun and shovel, in the time the guy with gun would figure out how to use it the guy with shovel would beat him senseless

    - - - Updated - - -



    well if you and your likes stop trolling we can...

    - - - Updated - - -



    well he would rather choose to believe OP whose last raid "progres" was dazaralor LFR and didnt log in since prepatch (or longer judging by his gear)...
    Why would I believe someone who is trying to downplay damage when it's literally the number one thing that matters in achieving a first kill lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    Because fun doesn't necessarily mean being the best all the time.

    On my druid for example, I would 100% always pick Night Fae. The story of Ardenweald makes sense from a lore perspective and as a Night Elf I also enjoyed the Tyrande part.

    Convoke the Sporits is a fun ability. Visually it's cool and it's always a surprise what combination of spells you will get. Unlike the other 3 abilities, that in my opinion, are really bland and you barely notice them.

    The mounts and gear also match the druid theme really well.

    I can return your question with a similar one. When you play the game like this for extended periods of time, wouldn't you want fun abilities, nice aesthetics and an interesting story?

    I always love to use this quote.

    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"
    The only part of this game I enjoy is group content if I want story I play a game that is actually made by people who have a clue how to write aka not wow. If I could just log in and raid/m+ I would honestly be ecstatic and outside of covenants shadowlands has largely gone back to that a once weekly grind for anima and the maw not withstanding. If they could just make covenants either swappable at will or somehow not an issue it would be approaching mop levels of awesome. I don't think it's a bad thing to only want to partake in one area of the game just like pvpers shouldn't have to pve for gear.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Why would I believe someone who is trying to downplay damage when it's literally the number one thing that matters in achieving a first kill lol.
    maybe in WORLD first kill, sure, bcs at their skill lvl it have actual impact, and if that is your aspiration you would choose "best" covenant even if the difference was less than 0,5%...
    for everybody else damage is NOT "number one thing that matters" in any way... following tactics is
    if you dont know that you either never progressed past LFR or are being pulled through by others
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-12-08 at 08:54 AM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Numbers change, looks don't (not in video games anyway). I wouldn't worry about it.
    The point is that people clearly picks covenants based on performance. The whole systems is a joke.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Some people may feel that way. I personally don't, I took the covenant I identified with most even though I will be raiding.
    "Some people.."

    It's clearly the vast majority who picks covenant based on performance. Blizzard have completely failed to make it about identity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Doesnt matter unless you are doing world first.
    That's not the point.

    Blizzard have created a system which should be about identity. But the vast majority of players are picking covenants based on performance. It's not about "world first". Blizzard have failed in creating a system that's about identity.

  16. #196
    Epic! Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    I ain't a mix/max'er... so I don't care, yet have no problems doing Mythic Raiding... I ain't a bleeding edge runner for world first, and most of us aren't either so...

    What I hate about Covenants though are the rare drops that drop only for specific covenants, such as Hopecrusher Gargon [Venthyr] or Trophy of the Reborn Bonelord [Necrolords]... so if you're a collector you're forced to have alts :/
    Yeah I can understand that but maintaining alts is fairly basic in this expansion. There's no power you're chasing to maintain viability.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The point is that people clearly picks covenants based on performance. The whole systems is a joke.

    - - - Updated - - -



    "Some people.."

    It's clearly the vast majority who picks covenant based on performance. Blizzard have completely failed to make it about identity.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's not the point.

    Blizzard have created a system which should be about identity. But the vast majority of players are picking covenants based on performance. It's not about "world first". Blizzard have failed in creating a system that's about identity.
    Do you have supporting evidence that the "vast majority" of people chose it for performance over aesthetics? Based on what you've linked. I see a few raiders chose it. As I stated, it's purely confirmation bias. I chose a covenant I liked. I didn't know it was the top performing when I selected it. I actually chose the covenant months ago. It was 3rd in DPS when I looked at it before SL launched.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-08 at 09:10 AM.

  17. #197
    The Patient Yuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Original thread 10 minutes after Covenants were announced
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nts-now/348779

    and now the results:
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...io#wowranks-io

    As has been predicted from the day this feature was announced even with heavy nerfs people would have to be willing to purposely gimp themselves in PVP and PVE just for an aesthetic choice. Once Raider IO takes over the expansions tomorrow this will get far worse not including raiding.

    Out of the source information I can count 10 specs (not at 50% concentrated) that have an option on what they want to play but some of those are before impending nerfs that will force the players to optimize their Covenant choices.

    Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.
    You should actually play the game, it's good. And also shouldn't link your characters showing that you abandoned Shadowlands 10min after announcement lmao.
    WoW players are all trash? M+ leavers? Pug raid fails? You don't have stuff to do? WoW has become a solo player game for you? People don't talk anymore? Everyone's toxic? I have a simple solution, just for you!
    Get social. Join a guild.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    Yeah I can understand that but maintaining alts is fairly basic in this expansion.
    No, it's absolutely not and I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Maintaining alts this expansion is a very extensive task (I'm doing this myself right now). The need to get your Soul Ash cap weekly is a super boring grind (unless you like the grind that Torghast is) that will take a minimum of 1-2 hours (that might not sound much per week, but where time is rare and no fun detected it becomes a chore). And even if people say you don't need to get your Anima to keep up, the weekly 1000 Anima quests is pretty mandatory and another funless grind of WQ that will take a minimum of another 1-2 hours. The one thing you might pass on is The Maw (thank god) and Stygia.

    I fail to see how maintaining an alt in Shadowlands is easier than in BfA.

    Nevertheless, it's still mind-boggling how so many in this thread fail to see the issues with Covenants and player power attached to it.
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    No, it's absolutely not and I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Maintaining alts this expansion is a very extensive task (I'm doing this myself right now). The need to get your Soul Ash cap weekly is a super boring grind (unless you like the grind that Torghast is) that will take a minimum of 1-2 hours (that might not sound much per week, but where time is rare and no fun detected it becomes a chore). And even if people say you don't need to get your Anima to keep up, the weekly 1000 Anima quests is pretty mandatory and another funless grind of WQ that will take a minimum of another 1-2 hours. The one thing you might pass on is The Maw (thank god) and Stygia.

    I fail to see how maintaining an alt in Shadowlands is easier than in BfA.

    Nevertheless, it's still mind-boggling how so many in this thread fail to see the issues with Covenants and player power attached to it.
    You get 750 Anima from a weekly dungeon quest in Theater of Pain, then you do a daily 250 Anima elite WQ and you have 1000 Anima. Normal/HC dungeon is done in like 20 minutes and another 5 minutes for the WQ. You can even do the WQ while you wait for the queue to pop, you can queue for normal + heroic simulatainously so even as DPS it won't be long. Even if you don't want to do the weekly dungeon quest, 4 days of 250 Anima WQ is like what? 30 minutes top? 30 minutes to collect 1000 anima, where do you get your 1-2 hours from? Do you grind treasure chests and rares? xD

  20. #200
    So there's two groups of people on covenants:

    People who think that, for instance, in Counter Strike if you chose terrorists you could only get a pistol - it's still viable (yes, you can still play and kill people and win rounds) and doesn't matter unless you compete in professional league.

    And people who think that this is complete bullcrap.

    No amount of arguments will persuade these groups.
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

    yall im smh @ ur simplified english

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