As I feared a few minutes after Covenants were announced....it will get worse

[Matsumotto]

There was a time when i would have picked the best covenant based on these rankings. I think WoW's in a place now where there are a lot less people who play the game for competitive reasons, so that's why this issue isn't totally exploding all over the internet. If this was Cata-MoP people would be taking out their pitchforks at this point, lol.

[ldev]

if the player is good and plays on high enough level, it will make a difference for him, AS I SAID...
if he is moron and/or plays on lfr level, it will NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE, or at least not noticeable, it can actualy be better on paper but due to him not being able to properly use it it can perform wors in reality
and obviously, higher the level you play on more important the difference is, but unless you play 30+ dungeons or hall of fame raiding, or pvp on the absolute peak, it will not be so huge to actualy hinder your progres IF YOU ARE CAPABLE of using the covenant you have chosen

so the SKILL is what matters more... if you cant grasp that sorry i have neither time nor crayons to explain it to you

Yes, it matters more. How does that contribute to anything?

Too bad you don't have 4 buttons where you select your skill and gain/lose dps, like crayon sniffing blizzard designers did with the covenants.

[Lolites]

You don't think that as a theme druids fit more with NF and that's also why it's possible a large section of the 43K chose it? They like the forests, they like the transmogs, they like the story?

this, if you check the disparity its highest mostly for specs that have aesthetics and performance best corresponding, like most druids go night fae and most paladins go kyrian (actualy i dont think its best for some of the specs)
when you take holy priest, where necro should be best, its "only" 44%... almost like the performance was NOT the most important criterium for majority...

but what arguments you can expect from people who dont care about reality but only about their narative...

[Echo of Soul]

Why is people picking what they want a bad thing? You would rather them pick something else?

[Azerate]

It's funny how people will interpret the facts to fit their opinion.

I looked through the covenant statistics this morning, and like I suspected, not everyone is picking the most optimal one, far from it - many specs have somewhat even distribution over the covenants. Sure, there are some where 70% of people are in that one covenant, but that also means that as many as 30% did not pick the most optimal from the numbers perspective. Also, you have to keep in mind that not everyone who choses 'bis' covenant chooses it because it is bis. You choose to assume so, because it validates your opinion on the subject matter. I am personally an example of such a player, as I picked Venthyr for my fury warrior main. I intended to do so from the beginning, and it turned out that it is also the numerically best option. That is just an added bonus to me and not the reason why I picked the covenant.

I think it's quite obvious that a large portion of the players do not care about lore and just pick whatever the class guide tells them to. This is no rocket science and not a big discovery. However it is also apparent than in the case of most specs, at least 30%, or sometimes 50%+ of the players do not pick the numerically best covenant.

[LordTakeo]

Numbers change, looks don't (not in video games anyway). I wouldn't worry about it.

This pretty much. I played fire mage post nerf in Legion, I am used to the struggle cuddle and hence got myself a guild to do content with. Cause they care less about specc, and more about how well I can play mechanics.

[oblakoff]

The stats looks great.

Majority of DKs either choose Venthyr or Necrolord which is most thematically fitting despite the goddamned fairies being OP by far
Majority of Paladins choose Kyrian which is most thematically fitting
Majority of Druids choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting
Majority of Hunters choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting

The other not so clearly defined thematically classes choose whatever the hell they wanted

Which once again proves nobody in their right mind, except world first raiders and most prominently - world first wannabies, will choose covenant based on minor dps increase.

[Soon-TM]

Literally twice as many Night Fae as Necrolord. The Necrolord dev really dropped the ball if your spells are only good for Unholy FDK and Resto shaman. Bottom trash tier for every other class pretty much.

Inc 300% fleshcraft buff

I guess it can be quite useful for arcane during cleave fights... But still underwhelming when compared to Kyrian or especially NF.

[Seiryu99]

he considers those of the 2m who chose the best a few, bcs they are in fact NOT a majority if you go over all specs...
sure, some specs gravitate to "best" covenant, but there is nothing proving HOW or WHY they chosen that covenant... or are you seriously saying NOBODY playing holy paladin would chose kyrians or resto druids wouldnt pick night fae for aesthetics? rly? on the other hand vast majority of balance druids picked night fae too, despite ITS NOT BEST for them... almost like there was thousand different criterias people use to choose... for frost dk less tahn 25% chosen "the best", why is that if majority choose based on performance?

and ofc "I picked based on aesthetics so its obviously everyone else mustve as well!!" is faulty logic ...but same fault is if you say oposite, that YOU choose based on performance so everyone else have...

Night fae for balance IS the best though through sims....you're right though its just a coincidence a vast majority of the specs chose the best performing covenant, definitely not some kind of trend. It's literally the same in every kind of game for every kind of player whether they are casual or "mythic" level. If anything MORE casuals would pick the "best" performing (insert any game mechanic that alters performance here). If a person had 0 clue on how to play a game or were playing a new game what are the chances they just google "best (blank) for my class" whether that be gems, enchants, stats, covenants, or talents. If that wasnt the case tier lists wouldnt exist and be as popular as they are along with sites like icy veins/wowhead guides or eventhubs. Things just dont coincidentally end up being picked 60% more often than something else just because people happened to like it more aesthetically even if people do happen to pick it for that reason. What could be said is that the 3000 people that picked necrolord for balance either dont care/know or actually chose it for aesthetic>performance reasons.

[Tyris Flare]

I'm a high ilvl healer. Pugs don't have balls to deny me entrance just because I have "the wrong covenant".

There's no challenging content in the game right now. Once people are pushing difficult keys, this will change.

[kaminaris]

If it wasn't for unavoidable damage aka choreographed you could absolutely do this. There is a reason many first kills take place with 1 less healer than a standard kill will have. For example Method ran 2 healers on their queen kill because they needed every scrap of damage and they could trust their players to not take random damage. There is a reason top guilds consistently try to cut down on healers needed it's because damage is what matters unless you are bad and stand in damage. Let me guess you are someone who think corrupted viscera was just damage the healers needed to deal with instead of moving out of it.

If you think that standing in bad is fine you are the one who hasn't raided at a challenging level there is a reason that failure damage is a stat.

Method and other world first guild kills bosses with garbage gear and they in fact DO need dps. Other wanna be elitist don't understand that having +10 ilvl difference vs method doesn't make them have the same dps issues. You are not in the same position as them, don't even compare yourself and your guild situation to world first race.

And i don't think standing in shit is good, that is just you projecting your opinions.

[javierdsv]

Oh no, my choice makes me 1% worse, the world is ending!

[Eldar45]

"You read somewhere". This is wrong. Take a look at the actual sims out there already. https://bloodmallet.com/ is a great resource to show you how wrong you are.

Going through a few of these really fast...

Okay, 400 DPS.

For the vast majority of people, this should not matter.

[Ielenia]

1. To choose a Covenant because of looks means during raid, mythic or pvp you are purposely choosing to gimp your team. On DPS check bosses or any boss for that matter this is easily the difference between an easy kill or struggling for 4+ hours.

Absolute kek-worthy that claim of yours that picking the """wrong""" covenant means you'll be struggling to kill a raid boss and wiping constantly for 4+ hours, instead of "easily killing it", by which I believe you mean one-shotting it.

Such hyperbole does nothing but hurt your own argument.

[Lolites]

Night fae for balance IS the best though through sims....you're right though its just a coincidence a vast majority of the specs chose the best performing covenant, definitely not some kind of trend. It's literally the same in every kind of game for every kind of player whether they are casual or "mythic" level. If anything MORE casuals would pick the "best" performing (insert any game mechanic that alters performance here). If a person had 0 clue on how to play a game or were playing a new game what are the chances they just google "best (blank) for my class" whether that be gems, enchants, stats, covenants, or talents. If that wasnt the case tier lists wouldnt exist and be as popular as they are along with sites like icy veins/wowhead guides or eventhubs. Things just dont coincidentally end up being picked 60% more often than something else just because people happened to like it more aesthetically even if people do happen to pick it for that reason. What could be said is that the 3000 people that picked necrolord for balance either dont care/know or actually chose it for aesthetic>performance reasons.

right so the fact that largest disparity have specs with aesthetics and performance BOTH being behind single covenant is proving those people chosen based ONLY on performance, but the fact that 10 specs have less than a half people (meaning majority picked different) in most picked covenant (not always the best, mind you), which goes completely against that opinion is not important and proves nothing... sure that doesnt sound like biased opinion at all...

actualy this whole statistics proves nothing, as we have no fucking clue what criteria people used, or whether they are actualy "registered" with the spec they actualy chosen for (as people do play multiple specs), or how many characters the stats are missing...
but it definitely shows largest disparities for specs that have performance and aesthetics aligned... does that prove anything? no, but is it coincidence? i realy doubt that

- - - Updated - - -

The stats looks great.

Majority of DKs either choose Venthyr or Necrolord which is most thematically fitting despite the goddamned fairies being OP by far
Majority of Paladins choose Kyrian which is most thematically fitting
Majority of Druids choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting
Majority of Hunters choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting

The other not so clearly defined thematically classes choose whatever the hell they wanted

Which once again proves nobody in their right mind, except world first raiders and most prominently - world first wannabies, will choose covenant based on minor dps increase.

no no, dont you know, people choosing most thematicaly fitting covenant did it bcs of performance!

[Nyel]

The stats looks great.

Majority of DKs either choose Venthyr or Necrolord which is most thematically fitting despite the goddamned fairies being OP by far
Majority of Paladins choose Kyrian which is most thematically fitting
Majority of Druids choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting
Majority of Hunters choose Night Fae which is most thematically fitting

The other not so clearly defined thematically classes choose whatever the hell they wanted

Which once again proves nobody in their right mind, except world first raiders and most prominently - world first wannabies, will choose covenant based on minor dps increase.

This argument is not really working. You deliberately left out obvious choices to not contradict your argument.

Thematically Warlocks fit very good for Necrolords (death and demons), Warriors fit very good for Necrolords too (you know, they're made of the strongest and bravest warriors...), Monks fit very good for Night Fae... yet those options are barely taken.

The reason why so many Paladins picked Kyrian is easy: their Covenant skill is by far the best. Same goes with Druids and Hunters (as we see now, those Covenant-Class-combos are overperforming).

We're not talking about 3-5% differences. And people, even the other 99%, most likely chose their Covenant because of performance - if visuals and skills line up perfectly for some classes it's coincidence. Would a majority of Night Fae Druids choose another Covenant if there would be a better option than Nightfae? Maybe not the majority, but a huge part of that. And that's exactly the problem so many have with this system.

[Doffen]

My point was is that on a wow addon site the top downloaded addons are performance addons. Compare it to All the things. Or can I mog it, or rarity. Of course there is overlap but denying that people do care about their performance is very disingenuous. Even when you level, if you pop a bigger damage session, people start inspecting you.

Mhm, you didn't see my edit I guess. Because, I do agree with you, people do care about their performance, so they install damage meters. But my point is, not so many care about it so much that it affects how they play the game, and do choices with other things than minmaxing in mind.

There is a big difference in caring about performance and minmaxing. Significant difference. Most players, I think, like you, care about performance. But a minor portion of the player base care about minmaxing.

[Mercarcher]

Shows the opposite for me.

Blood DK
Venthyr 23,863 50.36%
Necrolord 10,962 23.13%
Kyrian 9,138 19.29%

With Kyrian being the optimal choice for Blood DKs this is showing a lot of people chose flavor over numbers.

Protection Paladin
Kyrian 64,910 77.44%
Venthyr 14,419 17.20%

Same goes with Prot pallies. Kyrian fits the theme, Venthyr preforms better.

[Xath]

Method and other world first guild kills bosses with garbage gear and they in fact DO need dps. Other wanna be elitist don't understand that having +10 ilvl difference vs method doesn't make them have the same dps issues. You are not in the same position as them, don't even compare yourself and your guild situation to world first race.

And i don't think standing in shit is good, that is just you projecting your opinions.

Again I have raided at that level I don't anymore but I still get CE in a decent amount of time on a couple day a week. It has nothing to do with being a "wannabe elitist" it has to do with not making my raid carry me as you seem fine with. If you aren't taking the best options you are being actively detrimental to your raid compared to what you could do and making others pick up your slack. If you are taking a covenant that does 500 less dps you specifically are being detrimental to your raid compared to what you could be. I don't understand the selfish mentality that players like you and the other one have you are playing a group based game and are actively choosing to be worse. In the cases where it's 50 to 100 dps difference sure choose rp but when it's 500 plus you are kind of being a jerk to your raid not to take it.

- - - Updated - - -

Going through a few of these really fast...

Okay, 400 DPS.

For the vast majority of people, this should not matter.

400 dps is a 10% damage loss right now lols?

- - - Updated - - -

Absolute kek-worthy that claim of yours that picking the """wrong""" covenant means you'll be struggling to kill a raid boss and wiping constantly for 4+ hours, instead of "easily killing it", by which I believe you mean one-shotting it.

Such hyperbole does nothing but hurt your own argument.

If it's the entire raid at an average of 400 dps across 16 players averaging out tank and heal damage that's around 6400 dps which is basically having an extra raid member lol

- - - Updated - - -

Shows the opposite for me.

Blood DK
Venthyr 23,863 50.36%
Necrolord 10,962 23.13%
Kyrian 9,138 19.29%

With Kyrian being the optimal choice for Blood DKs this is showing a lot of people chose flavor over numbers.

Protection Paladin
Kyrian 64,910 77.44%
Venthyr 14,419 17.20%

Same goes with Prot pallies. Kyrian fits the theme, Venthyr preforms better.

Kyrian is optimal for single target but Venth is better for M+ same for pallies but reversed.

[doodle90]

So right now bloodmallet (idk how accurate it is) shows DPS sims of around 5.4k-6.4k DPS. Covenant difference is STILL ~400 dps The same gap as when they were using lower ilvl and DPS was 4.2k. I think the max is Balance druid with a 600dps Gap between the lowest and highest performing covenant AND soulbind. What this means is it seems the gap is not increasing or if it is not at the same rate as the DPS meaning the further we go the less covenant choice matters.

The annoying thing is even if this is the case we still have covenant skill flavor vs aesthetic.

Some covenant abilities are just plain boring. Like DH maldraxus, or Kyrian Druid. So if you want the Aesthetic choice you have to stomach a lame ability you don't like. That is far worse then a <10% dps difference.