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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    So where's the part of the data that tells us why people picked what they picked? Not saying these numbers don't say a lot, but to address some of the biggest outliers: RP-wise Kyrian fit really well with paladin, Night Fae fit well with Druids, if those happen to also be the best for the class then there's likely a good amount of over-lap. Vengeance DH were the other one I saw, close to 80% or so went Kyrian, and well... All the vengeance DH abilities are shite, I was going to pick the one I liked best but they all suck flavor-wise and none of them were particularly fun or stood out, and I didn't feel an affinity for any of the covenants, so why not go with the best?
    RP wise Night Fae and Kyrian make no sense for Warlock but are the most popular ones(they are the strongest DPS throughput ones tho).

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Quite the opposite actually. For example Affliction warlock the best Covenant is Night Fae with Kyrian being a close second. 57% are Night Fae.
    and for holy priest "best" is necrolord, which was chosen by roughly 44%, so 56%, which is majority of holy priests, DIDNT choose based on performance...
    frost DK "best" is night fae which was picked by less than 25%, so majority again picked on different criteria...
    biggest disparities are on specs where both aesthetics and performance are best for the same covenant, how surprising, given that those are most likely two most prominent criteria...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    RP wise Night Fae and Kyrian make no sense for Warlock but are the most popular ones(they are the strongest DPS throughput ones tho).
    night fae doesnt make aestheticaly great fit for frost DK, but its best performance, so it was picked by ...less than 25%... seems like majority didnt go for performance there...
    holy priest clearly best performance are necrolords and got less than 44%...

    biggest disparities are on specs that have best performance and most fitting aesthetics in the same covenant (or where pretty much none fits thematicaly) where we cant say WHY those people choose, for others its not realy that clearly "pro-performance", some specs (as already mentioned two examples) actualy dont have majority picking the same covenant, 10 specs are less than half in most picked covenant (mind you, not the "best", but most picked)

    so pretty much all we can say from the data is how many people chose which covenant, and thats it, as we have no fucking clue WHY they did so...

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    Kyrian is by far the most popular covenant for Ret Paladin despite not being the best PvE dps (Venthyr is). People will play what they want.
    When it doesn't matter, sure they will.

    When it comes to high end raiding and mythic+ it's all about the optimisation and efficiency. Not to say average joe with his necrolord warrior (the banner ability sucks fyi) couldn't do heroic/mythic raids, sure he could but when it comes to progression raiding the goal is to clear the content which means eeking out every last drop of DPS to ensure success.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and for holy priest "best" is necrolord, which was chosen by roughly 44%, so 56%, which is majority of holy priests, DIDNT choose based on performance...
    frost DK "best" is night fae which was picked by less than 25%, so majority again picked on different criteria...
    biggest disparities are on specs where both aesthetics and performance are best for the same covenant, how surprising, given that those are most likely two most prominent criteria...
    Holy Priest:
    Holy Priest in general has a total sample size of 20.316

    There are almost as many Venthyr Disc Priest then there are Holy, its kinda a dog spec atm and most priest in that sample are off specs or something else.

    Secondly, Holy doesnt actually have a "best" so i have 0 clue how you got to that conclusion. https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/holy-p...s-and-conduits
    https://warcraftpriests.com/holy/holy-priest-covenants/

    Frost DK:

    Same Situation, Unholy is the superior spec in pretty much every situation atm and their "Best" is, you guessed it, Necrolord. So what does that tell you about why you see so many Necrolord Frost DKs but a small amount of actual Frost DKs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Except there not... they are doing them maybe one or two pieces less then those that clear. Yes that adds up on a per raid level especially trinkets and weapons but it's not some colossal difference till it hits thing like cloak levels
    Except there not..., even with splits theres a limit to how hard you can gear a character especially if you are pushing world first. They even live streamed world first progression. This isnt hidden information its borderline common sense at this point that that World first players are doing it at the bare minimums.
    Last edited by Malix Farwin; 2020-12-09 at 09:41 PM.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Unholy is the superior spec in pretty much every situation atm and their "Best" is, you guessed it, Necrolord. So what does that tell you about why you see so many Necrolord Frost DKs but a small amount of actual Frost DKs.
    that obviously not everybody cares about performance in the first place, otherwise there would be NO frost dks...
    thank you for providing more argument AGAINST op i guess...

    and sure, necrolords might be best for unholy, but they are ALSO best aesthetic fit, so as i said, biggest disparity where looks and numbers are aligned...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-12-09 at 10:00 PM.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Except there not... they are doing them maybe one or two pieces less then those that clear. Yes that adds up on a per raid level especially trinkets and weapons but it's not some colossal difference till it hits thing like cloak levels
    Quite impressive that they're able to gather months worth of gear in a single reset. They must have like 50 alts each and sleep 15 minutes per day.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Secondly, Holy doesnt actually have a "best" so i have 0 clue how you got to that conclusion. https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/holy-p...s-and-conduits
    https://warcraftpriests.com/holy/holy-priest-covenants/
    right there

    https://www.wowhead.com/guides/holy-...nt-shadowlands

  8. #308
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    RP wise Night Fae and Kyrian make no sense for Warlock but are the most popular ones(they are the strongest DPS throughput ones tho).
    Right, the point of the post is that numbers don't show reasons. These numbers say a lot, but they're not really definitive proof of anything, for all we know 50% of druids/paladins picked NF/Kyrian to RP. People just love having numbers they can attach to things to try and push their narrative, but at the end of the day all we know is how many people picked a covenant and that it.

    Every single druid spec has Night Fae as the most picked by far, but Night Fae isn't the best option for all their specs. Balance druids are a staggering 68% Night Fae compared to 28% for Kyrian (their best according to WoWhead). So, yeah, numbers are great but over all they aren't super helpful. It's the same for Guardian, Night Fae is strong but Kyrian is rated better in both raids and M+, and yet it's 48/27 in favor of NF.

  9. #309
    1% ers aren't posting here whining about covenant imbalances. They're getting on with their work.
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  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post

    Since you're failing to understand the concept I made a graphic for you that's color coded and notated for better understanding of how this site uses its data. For mythic+ data it pulls data that was captured by Blizzard, posted on Blizzard sites, and puts them all there for anyone to view in one convienent place. Since mythic+ infomation is saved within Blizzard due to the fact that it has a lockout and saves previous lockouts to prove you've completed such & such mythic+ (achiievements + leaderboard data) at such & such key (achievements + leaderboard data) and you are ranked based on the leaderboard ratings (something you can view from Blizzard itself), raider IO simply pulls that already established data for viewing in one place. Notice how not only does this info graphic show the name of the dungeon, but it also shows what key it was, what affixes he has ran (again information that is saved by Blizzard each time you run a mythic), the time it took to complete, his ranking in the world for that score, his ranking in his region for the score (score being something determined internally by Blizzard the second the mythic is completed), and what spec he was when the mythic completed (which is more than likely what spec he ran the entire time of the mythic because I'm not aware of being able to switch specs mid-run). As you can see from the information of the OP's own character, he never ran any mythic as a holy paladin because he has no data as that. You can also see that based on the info graphic that he never ran Mechagon mythic.

    As for your insistence that the data is false, bad, wrong, or anything else you call it....the data as it reflects what spec chose what covenant is based on armory data that is saved when you log out of the game. Your claim that you "never play windwalker" yet you are logged out in the windwalker spec just proves your claim is invalid because you don't suddenly get put into a spec while you are offline and therefore it shows up on armory that you are a spec you "never play". No, instead you CHOSE to log out in that spec and manually selected to be that spec therefore it shows you played that spec which is the truth. Regardless of what spec you "play most" is irrelevant because the data pulled from armory shows what you last logged out in.

    As for the semantics of the wording you chose, raider IO pulling data from armory to show what specs chose what covenants, the term you are fishing for is "misuse of statistics" or a "statistical fallacy". Misuse of statistics is a statistical argument (such as which spec chose which covenant in this case) claims a falsehood (which would be that the numbers are wrong about which spec chose which covenant). When you try to use the statistics in a misleading or wrong fashion (as to say instead of the majority of windwalker monks chose such & such covenant they say instead that another covenant was chosen). Neither of these situations apply here as raider IO is not making claims that are incorrect based on the data obtained by "official Blizzard data" nor is the data itself wrong because in the end, that person who is playing a monk and chose whatever covenant chose to log out of the game under that spec therefore the player does play that spec (even if only to walk around Org or SW doing RP and nothing else under that spec of the class).

    You should really read the paper by John Gardenier & David Resnik titled "The Misuse of Statistics: Concepts, Tools, and a Research Agenda". One of the things about statistics (which this is what the raider IO is all about is statistical data being presented) is that the provisional conclusions have errors and error rates and commonly 5% of the provisional conclusions of significance testing are wrong.
    So to be clear, since you don't seem to get it - the data you posted is irrelevant to this conversation. Covenants did not exist. At the time of this thread posting, there were zero M+ runs completed. Any analysis of M+ is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, since it did not exist.

    I have never said that I "never play windwalker." I stated that I almost always log out as windwalker, and it is not my main spec. Therefore, in this data, there is at least one player classified by the research as DPS, which is an incorrect assertion. The only relevant and correct data I found from the website was class totals. Any analysis of the data that is broken down by spec is done using inaccurate research methods. When inaccurate research methods are used, ALL of its conclusions are subject to additional scrutiny. In my assertion, the data is meaningless. For example, in the second paragraph of your post you started with a completely false statement (that I never play windwalker), so it is logical that any conclusion you draw from it is meaningless.

    There is a misinterpretation of the statistics. The data attained does not lead to the conclusions they made. The research methods are not appropriate for the claims they are making.

    I don't need additional reading - I have a degree in math and use data every day. You are simply ignoring what I am saying and trying to assert that I am wrong based on arguments that aren't relevant for the discussion. Of course if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree you will find it stupid.
    Last edited by Jonnusthegreat; 2020-12-09 at 10:20 PM.

  11. #311
    The Unstoppable Force DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Necrolord is king, everyone else bow.
    Quit yer whining!
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    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Domixux View Post
    So your argument is that 1 out of 5 people has to have one of the four covenants? Sure this destroys the meaningful choice for the whole playerbase.
    I have no argument. I do not give a single shit about people's covenants or whatever. I am simply enjoying my game.
    But I am just telling, this exists. So, put it on a side somewhere.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Doesnt matter unless you are doing world first.
    Not really with hunter I like Venthyr armor looks but the talents is so bad compare to others.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Quite impressive that they're able to gather months worth of gear in a single reset. They must have like 50 alts each and sleep 15 minutes per day.
    I'm unsure how long they sleep but usually its 6 alts and 20million gold a pop

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    So to be clear, since you don't seem to get it - the data you posted is irrelevant to this conversation. Covenants did not exist. At the time of this thread posting, there were zero M+ runs completed. Any analysis of M+ is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, since it did not exist.
    Covenants did exist at the time of this thread posting. The reason why my data is out of date is because like MANY others I am watching from the sidelines. Plenty of us jumped on board day 1 of BFA just to find out the MMO was a mess until the x.1 patch. The big fear with Shadowlands that has been spoken about by many is the fear of pigeonholing.

    Since Covenants are the foundation of the entire expansion with everything else being built on top of that simple choice the concept of pigeonholing has been continues to be a fear for a lot of people. There is nothing remotely about Kyrian that could possibly make me want to play WoW and have anything that resembles fun but as people can see from the information available Kyrian is really the only choice in a performance based MMO.

    We shall see how the data changes now that heroic and Mythic +10 are unlocked but I expect to see it shift further towards min/max potential for each spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except that is not what the OP said:
    If you have played in low tier or mid tier progression guilds you know they do not expect perfection and are mostly happy that people show up so I doubt they care about Covenant choice or min/max but the reality is the wrong choice could result in hours added to an otherwise straight forward run.

    Given what I am seeing from tuning of people running Castle Nathria heroic is not easy by any means at the current gear level. This thread is not designed to bash on Blizzard but to point out hard data that they were wrong when they told people not to be concerned about pigeonholing based on "what is best".

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Covenants did exist at the time of this thread posting. The reason why my data is out of date is because like MANY others I am watching from the sidelines. Plenty of us jumped on board day 1 of BFA just to find out the MMO was a mess until the x.1 patch. The big fear with Shadowlands that has been spoken about by many is the fear of pigeonholing.

    Since Covenants are the foundation of the entire expansion with everything else being built on top of that simple choice the concept of pigeonholing has been continues to be a fear for a lot of people. There is nothing remotely about Kyrian that could possibly make me want to play WoW and have anything that resembles fun but as people can see from the information available Kyrian is really the only choice in a performance based MMO.

    We shall see how the data changes now that heroic and Mythic +10 are unlocked but I expect to see it shift further towards min/max potential for each spec.
    The data he posted was from when covenants did not exist. I did not say that at the time of this thread posting covenants did not exist. He linked data from last expansion and pretended it was from this data collection, which is quite comical. I always understood his points and was trying to help him understand but to be honest now I think he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    Not really with hunter I like Venthyr armor looks but the talents is so bad compare to others.
    They are not that bad and will most likely have very little impact on your performance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Covenants did exist at the time of this thread posting. The reason why my data is out of date is because like MANY others I am watching from the sidelines. Plenty of us jumped on board day 1 of BFA just to find out the MMO was a mess until the x.1 patch. The big fear with Shadowlands that has been spoken about by many is the fear of pigeonholing.

    Since Covenants are the foundation of the entire expansion with everything else being built on top of that simple choice the concept of pigeonholing has been continues to be a fear for a lot of people. There is nothing remotely about Kyrian that could possibly make me want to play WoW and have anything that resembles fun but as people can see from the information available Kyrian is really the only choice in a performance based MMO.

    We shall see how the data changes now that heroic and Mythic +10 are unlocked but I expect to see it shift further towards min/max potential for each spec.



    If you have played in low tier or mid tier progression guilds you know they do not expect perfection and are mostly happy that people show up so I doubt they care about Covenant choice or min/max but the reality is the wrong choice could result in hours added to an otherwise straight forward run.

    Given what I am seeing from tuning of people running Castle Nathria heroic is not easy by any means at the current gear level. This thread is not designed to bash on Blizzard but to point out hard data that they were wrong when they told people not to be concerned about pigeonholing based on "what is best".
    Why do you trust other peoples opinions of what is best like its gospel to you?

    Player perception is quite often wrong as been proven many times in the past.

    Also. What makes you think you are so good at the game that your choice of covenants will have the impact you think it will? Is your execution of the class and your ability to use it to its maximum potential that good?

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    Right, the point of the post is that numbers don't show reasons. These numbers say a lot, but they're not really definitive proof of anything, for all we know 50% of druids/paladins picked NF/Kyrian to RP. People just love having numbers they can attach to things to try and push their narrative, but at the end of the day all we know is how many people picked a covenant and that it.

    Every single druid spec has Night Fae as the most picked by far, but Night Fae isn't the best option for all their specs. Balance druids are a staggering 68% Night Fae compared to 28% for Kyrian (their best according to WoWhead). So, yeah, numbers are great but over all they aren't super helpful. It's the same for Guardian, Night Fae is strong but Kyrian is rated better in both raids and M+, and yet it's 48/27 in favor of NF.
    Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.

  19. #319
    If Blizzard removed the mobility actives from Venthyr and Night Fae then we'd have much less of an issue, you know it ...we all know it.
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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If Blizzard removed the mobility actives from Venthyr and Night Fae then we'd have much less of an issue, you know it ...we all know it.
    I thought the same but the venthyr one is, at bes, covenient, is not game breaking at all.

    Night fae can be a little bit better, but even then, its not such a big deal, I mostly see it bing used in between mobs or in the mall.

    The venthyr one I just use to get to some places slightly faster in the exploration territory, I rarely use it in dungeons, that's for sure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.
    I think, one thing that really affect it, more than RP or maybe even performance (IMO), is how it plays.

    EG: I left venthyr in my BM monk for kyrian simply because weapons of order feels better to play than fallen order. I imagine it's the case for many players.
    It is also one of the reasons why I picked venthyr for my Blood DK, swarming mists simply feels better to play than abomination's limb.
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