As I feared a few minutes after Covenants were announced....it will get worse

[BananaHandsB]

Some people may feel that way. I personally don't, I took the covenant I identified with most even though I will be raiding.

And your raid thanks you for that

I'm being cheeky, but that's the problem with a system like this. It's not just a personal choice. Sure you can take what you find most aesthetically pleasing, but if you play the game with a group of people at even a semi-competitive level that becomes a selfish choice since another choice can benefit the group much more. That's why me and 90% of holy paladins picked Kyrian. In the end, what I want is less important than what my group needs. It's unfortunate to have to make that compromise. I would have much rather played necrolord or venthyr if it was purely a personal choice, but when they weave player power into choices like this, they become more than just personal decision. I seriously don't know what I'd do without Divine Toll for raid and dungeon. I'd feel like a complete ass without it.

[Tesshin83]

No, the data is showing the vast majority of players even if they aren't hardcore raiders picking the covenant that has the best performance per WoWhead/Icy-Veins. I tried to not do that but holy shit am I kicking myself.

The argument is not really that. Everybody knew thats what people would do. The question is if they gain anything by it or if the guides are right.

[kaminaris]

Except there not... they are doing them maybe one or two pieces less then those that clear. Yes that adds up on a per raid level especially trinkets and weapons but it's not some colossal difference till it hits thing like cloak levels

Dude they have absolute shit gear, minus 10 from what mythic was rewarding, even when titanforging was still a thing. Check what gear method had on first kill on jaina BoD. It is clear that you just have no idea what are you talkin about.

[Tesshin83]

And your raid thanks you for that

I'm being cheeky, but that's the problem with a system like this. It's not just a personal choice. Sure you can take what you find most aesthetically pleasing, but if you play the game with a group of people at even a semi-competitive level that becomes a selfish choice since another choice can benefit the group much more. That's why me and 90% of holy paladins picked Kyrian. In the end, I want what's best for my raid and M+ group, not what I think looks the coolest. It's unfortunate to have to make that compromise. I would have much rather played necrolord or venthyr if it was purely a personal choice, but when they weave player power into choices like this, they become more than just personal decision, as it can effect my ability to perform optimally for the groups I play with. I seriously don't know what I'd do without Divine Toll for raid and dungeon.

I dont really understand that argument because it has so many flaws.

The premise of the argument is that your covenant choice the only thing you bring to the raid. That is far from the case.

Another premise is that the covenant choice is very important to your players performance. Sure, it can do 5 or 10 percent more dps, but is your 5 or 10 percent more or less dps what is going to inflict on your guilds overall performance. No its not.

All guilds have certain things they accept by every raider. They might accept you have to work every 5th raid, or that you might experience lag, or that you don't read up on all the tactics

These are things that affect your overall performance more than your choice of covenant.

Yet, why are you being selfish keeping that raidspot? Why not hand it over to someone else if you are so afraid of not being selfish.

Every guild that cares about performance should want their members to enjoy the game as much as possible. People peform better that way.

[De Lupe]

Numbers be damned. I'm going with the ones that match each character's personal story. So what if I'm 5% less optimal if I'm enjoying myself. Games are about fun, not optimization.

[ymirsson]

And your raid thanks you for that

I'm being cheeky, but that's the problem with a system like this. It's not just a personal choice. Sure you can take what you find most aesthetically pleasing, but if you play the game with a group of people at even a semi-competitive level that becomes a selfish choice since another choice can benefit the group much more. That's why me and 90% of holy paladins picked Kyrian. In the end, what I want is less important than what my group needs. It's unfortunate to have to make that compromise. I would have much rather played necrolord or venthyr if it was purely a personal choice, but when they weave player power into choices like this, they become more than just personal decision. I seriously don't know what I'd do without Divine Toll for raid and dungeon. I'd feel like a complete ass without it.

So you change class with every tuning patch? Where is the line to draw between "best choice for me" vs "best choice for my chosen circle of influence" ?
And what is "semi-competitive" in that matter?

[Jazzhands]

Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.

Numbers show a lot when they pertain to more specific things and we have more info about the numbers themselves. We don't have any of that, we only know which covenants were picked by which class/spec, not why, and why people picked their covenant is the subject of this thread. Nothing short of a mass survey of the actual population, not just on sites like MMO where min/maxers run rampant, would give us a breakdown of what people are trying to say these numbers show, and it's incredibly unlikely we will ever get that.

[Ielenia]

If you have played in low tier or mid tier progression guilds you know they do not expect perfection and are mostly happy that people show up so I doubt they care about Covenant choice or min/max but the reality is the wrong choice could result in hours added to an otherwise straight forward run.

Given what I am seeing from tuning of people running Castle Nathria heroic is not easy by any means at the current gear level. This thread is not designed to bash on Blizzard but to point out hard data that they were wrong when they told people not to be concerned about pigeonholing based on "what is best".

And none of that changes what I said regarding your horrendous hyperbole.

[Lolites]

Numbers actually can show you a lot if you interpret them correctly. They are showing problems but if you read them incorrectly then you get responses like the one i got about Frost DKs and Holy Priests.

riiiight so you and op and others interpreting specs that have BOTH aesthetics and performance best for the same covenant as proof of everyone choosing based on performance is CORRECT INTERPRETATION?
no, its absolutely incorrect, just to justify your biased point of view, and dismising ACTUAL EVIDENCE as you do with frost dk and holy priest (and DOZEN specs that dont even have majority choosing one, let alone the "best" specs) is further proof you are full of shit and dont care about the truth but rather about being right... funny enough your evidence proves you are wrong, but you are just not capable to understand it...

nevermind, i met enough people like you who will put their fingers into ears close eyes and keep going just to keep the illusion of being right to know you will never learn... so ill just ignore you, you keep telling yourself you are right, maybe at least you will believe it

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The argument is not really that. Everybody knew thats what people would do. The question is if they gain anything by it or if the guides are right.

even if the argument was that, "vast majority" for some specs mean 25%...
10 specs have minority in most chosen (not best mind you) spec, and more are barely about half, which if you consider other reasons than performance shows most people choose whatever they like...

[Krakan]

Dude they have absolute shit gear, minus 10 from what mythic was rewarding, even when titanforging was still a thing. Check what gear method had on first kill on jaina BoD. It is clear that you just have no idea what are you talkin about.

Now you are trying to move the subject I've already shown you your concept was incorrect on znoth.

As for jaina I will be honest I missed that tier but no world first guilds are not undergeared. Perhaps in terms of people who take till the last month to get ce but there is a golf between them and those who take 6 weeks.

[Puremallace]

And none of that changes what I said regarding your horrendous hyperbole.

It is not hyperbole if I am continuing to be proven correct. Only thing I never predicted would be that Blizzard would make the massive mistake of gutting gear acquisition from other sources outside of raiding. That has made the problem FAR FAR worse then normal.

Typically even a bad guild could clear a boss if they simply over geared it from M +10 loot in BFA. Now with severely nerfed drop rates the reliance on min/max'n to make any progress in even normal mode is required. It is only going to get worse and forget about Mythic + raid pugging much less Heroic unless you see massive nerfs.

The only solution to the problem is massive nerfs to the content to bring up the bad Covenant choices so that they do not affect performance so much and even then you are still asking people to choose RP over Min/Max. Every single day I am being proven correct on this analysis. The other debate was that PVP would supplement the nerfed drop rates but now that sub Rogues are effectively enraged raid bosses and the new caps it will takes weeks to progress.

Like a lot of people have said it is a slow moving train wreck that cannot be fixed without severe adjustments in gear acquisition and Covenant unlocking to match their own story narrative.

[Doombringer]

Numbers be damned. I'm going with the ones that match each character's personal story. So what if I'm 5% less optimal if I'm enjoying myself. Games are about fun, not optimization.

I think more players need to wrap their minds around this and stop chasing the bleeding edge. It's fine if your guild is the World First crowd... you know what you're getting in to there, and you're bound to have your Cov choice dictated to you... but unless your guild/raid group isn't up to that level, why are you sweating it?

The Covenants are a great mix of personal aesthetic and whoever you're comfortable around.

[Ielenia]

It is not hyperbole if I am continuing to be proven correct.

Except you have not been proven correct.

But I'll give you an opportunity to do so: post the information that proves that choosing the "wrong" covenant is the difference between a one-shot kill and 4+ hours of wiping on a single boss.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Case in point... The wild "bootlicker" appears.

So Ad Hominem is all you have to bring to the table. That and some unclassy comments. Let me see if I can simplify this for you:

FUN is subjective. People have their own opinions. If someone would rather be a spirit fox than have some spirit link, that is entirely THEIR CHOICE. You are neither their boss, their bae, or their benefactor and therefore have no say in what someone else chooses to do with their own subscription. Maybe you should spend less time worrying about what others enjoy and more time trying to analyze why you are so mad about a video game. Maybe if you settled down, and put your eyes where they actually belong, you might enjoy yourself more.

No, if you will excuse me, my teleporting spirit Vulpin is waiting for me.

[kaminaris]

Now you are trying to move the subject I've already shown you your concept was incorrect on znoth.

As for jaina I will be honest I missed that tier but no world first guilds are not undergeared. Perhaps in terms of people who take till the last month to get ce but there is a golf between them and those who take 6 weeks.

Please stop. You have no idea what are you talking about. World first guilds literally cannot get better gear than M+ gear, heroic funneled gear and couple pieces from one week of mythic and couple of BoEs. This is a fact.

By the time normal 200+ rank guilds get to last boss, they already have weeks of worth mythic gear. Much much higher average ilvl than other guilds had.

And since you mention Nzoth you also forgot that 2 months after release your corruption cap was much higher allowing you to equip couple of corrupted gear at once.
So yes, they have SHIT gear.

[Krakan]

Please stop. You have no idea what are you talking about. World first guilds literally cannot get better gear than M+ gear, heroic funneled gear and couple pieces from one week of mythic and couple of BoEs. This is a fact.

By the time normal 200+ rank guilds get to last boss, they already have weeks of worth mythic gear. Much much higher average ilvl than other guilds had.

And since you mention Nzoth you also forgot that 2 months after release your corruption cap was much higher allowing you to equip couple of corrupted gear at once.
So yes, they have SHIT gear.

Yes if you start weirdly including normal non mythic guilds in your example it makes sense.

[kaminaris]

Yes if you start weirdly including normal non mythic guilds in your example it makes sense.

World rank 200 is not non-mythic guild. It's a mythic guild. Non mythic guilds starts at ~2000 depending on tier.

[BananaHandsB]

Oh good my convent is the least popular... Less people farting around my area. Glad to see

With sharding, that's how they all are.

[Perkunas]

So Ad Hominem is all you have to bring to the table. That and some unclassy comments. Let me see if I can simplify this for you:

FUN is subjective. People have their own opinions. If someone would rather be a spirit fox than have some spirit link, that is entirely THEIR CHOICE. You are neither their boss, their bae, or their benefactor and therefore have no say in what someone else chooses to do with their own subscription. Maybe you should spend less time worrying about what others enjoy and more time trying to analyze why you are so mad about a video game. Maybe if you settled down, and put your eyes where they actually belong, you might enjoy yourself more.

No, if you will excuse me, my teleporting spirit Vulpin is waiting for me.

I actually took one of the covenants that I prefer over the 2 best. It sucks ass and my performance suffers terribly from it because the idiot dev team can't balance for shit and doesn't listen to reason. You defend bad ideas that are unnecessary. Who would it hurt to make the powers into a talent row?

[Rinaul]

... As an FYI I have not touched Shadowlands since launch due to this fear of pigeonholing and constantly ...

Avoiding things on pure what ifs. Man what a fun life you must live. I'm sorry you no longer have any joy in the real or digital life.

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I actually took one of the covenants that I prefer over the 2 best. It sucks ass and my performance suffers terribly from it because the idiot dev team can't balance for shit and doesn't listen to reason. You defend bad ideas that are unnecessary. Who would it hurt to make the powers into a talent row?

Imagine having a remotely balanced game on launch. You must have missed every expansion since TBC