First Day of Raiding Statistics: DPS

[ymirsson]

"Pure" classes specs are exactly who should be at the bottom, as long as all their specs aren't. They can just respec and be viable in their role. If ret or windwalker are bottom dwellers they are just fucked.

they could just respec either.

[D3athsting]

"Pure" classes specs are exactly who should be at the bottom, as long as all their specs aren't. They can just respec and be viable in their role. If ret or windwalker are bottom dwellers they are just fucked.

Sure, you only need to craft and upgrade spec specific legendaries and maybe change covenant too, piss easy

[Fallen Angel]

they could just respec either.

What other viable DPS specs does paladin or monk have? If they aren't "viable", they can't just respec. They have to completely reroll. Not every raid group is going to want to or can lose their DPS roles to a healing or tank role.

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Sure, you only need to craft and upgrade spec specific legendaries and maybe change covenant too, piss easy

Same for those hybrids if they have to respec/reroll

[Azerate]

Not happy about warrior's performance, but what can you do. Maybe we'll get a buff or something.

And yeah the raid is kinda hard, expecting some nerfs soon

[Sageless]

Good thing they got some nice nerfs in for frost mages at the end of beta, wouldn't want them to be within 25% of the top dps specs >.<

[cordrann]

Sure, you only need to craft and upgrade spec specific legendaries and maybe change covenant too, piss easy

Well yes, it is piss easy compared to doing that plus rerolling to a whole new class. I'm glad we're on the same page.

[ymirsson]

What other viable DPS specs does paladin or monk have? If they aren't "viable", they can't just respec. They have to completely reroll. Not every raid group is going to want to or can lose their DPS roles to a healing or tank role.

So hybrids are allowed to say that they only main a spec, not a class, whereas pure DPS has to be ready to change anything any time?
Basically, they get less of everything, except DPS specs they have to maintain?

[ClassicPeon]

-Normal mode is thought to be slightly over-tuned as a general consensus

Nice understatement there bro

[Aerwydd]

No huge surprises really, I'm on an affi lock so no complaints either

[Fallen Angel]

So hybrids are allowed to say that they only main a spec, not a class, whereas pure DPS has to be ready to change anything any time?
Basically, they get less of everything, except DPS specs they have to maintain?

Everyone should be ready to change depending on Blizzard's tuning passes (if they are in "bleeding edge" prog groups, otherwise play what you want)

Do pure dps get a pass because their spec is broken so they get to complain about the spec and not "main the class" as you put it? What if your raid doesn't need additional healers/tanks and your hybrid's only dps spec is broken at the bottom and you need to edge out that extra dps? Guess what, you're getting sat or rerolling another class. So you have to main 2 classes instead of one. Legendaries and covenants are a moot issue since if I went from spec A to spec B I'd likely need to do the same if I want to be optimal

Look at the dps rankings. Every pure DPS class has a spec doing at least middle of the pack. What are the poor demon hunters at the bottom supposed to do? Respec tank and do less damage?

[Captain Proton]

This might come as a surprise to you.... but being able to take down your "leet deepeeesser" blinders and see you need to heal yourself, and then having the capability to do so, is an invaluable tool that should be taken into account when balancing specs against each other. And those classes that are supposed to keep you "leet deepeeessers" alive aren't always able to reach you or get off a cast in time or have the mana to heal you. And in those moments being able to stop and heal yourself is an invaluable tool. Being able to dps and throw a heal at a tank or a group heal out if you can is an invaluable tool that should be taken into consideration when balancing dps. Hell, being able to taunt the mobs off your tank for a moment while you run is an invaluable tool that should be taken into account.

I would like druids to stay amazing, but some of the classes/specs need to be brought in line to where they should be for what they're capable of.

Offhealing is just one form of utility.. Why are you ignoring the utility that pure dps specs bring? I'd trade that for Turtle/Cloak/Ice Block, rogues and hunters have often been taken just for their ability to cheese boss mechanics.

[TrickNasty]

Sometimes I kind of wish dps Shaman were able to support a group so much that having lower damage would be made up via the utility though brought. Kinda like TBC arms warriors and survival hunters.

[ymirsson]

Everyone should be ready to change depending on Blizzard's tuning passes (if they are in "bleeding edge" prog groups, otherwise play what you want)

Do pure dps get a pass because their spec is broken so they get to complain about the spec and not "main the class" as you put it? What if your raid doesn't need additional healers/tanks and your hybrid's only dps spec is broken at the bottom and you need to edge out that extra dps? Guess what, you're getting sat or rerolling another class. So you have to main 2 classes instead of one. Legendaries and covenants are a moot issue since if I went from spec A to spec B I'd likely need to do the same if I want to be optimal

Look at the dps rankings. Every pure DPS class has a spec doing at least middle of the pack. What are the poor demon hunters at the bottom supposed to do? Respec tank and do less damage?

What if your raid needs additional healers/tanks? Do i have to sit my rogue?
There is no compelling, decisive argument to be made for either side, so please stop saying pure DPS have it easier, or hybrids have it worse.
If i wanted to play assa, i would be truly unlucky right now.

[Fallen Angel]

What if your raid needs additional healers/tanks? Do i have to sit my rogue?
There is no compelling, decisive argument to be made for either side, so please stop saying pure DPS have it easier, or hybrids have it worse.
If i wanted to play assa, i would be truly unlucky right now.

When was the last time a raid needed more than 2 tanks? Also, any of your non-performer DPS will be sat if you need to get extra healing. We're talking about DPS anyway. Assassin rogues need some love, but they also have viable specs they can play until they get it. Havoc DHs cannot play another spec that won't completely fuck the raid comp unless one of the tanks wants to DPS. Looking at the logs, pures do have it easier. Just because they begrudgingly don't want to change specs to something doing more damage doesn't mean those specs don't exist or they can't make sacrifices to play them if they are needed to clear a raid.

Does changing specs suck when you have all your crap for your current spec? Sure does. You know what sucks more? Leveling, gearing, learning a completely new class because your main's DPS is suboptimal and you literally cannot respec to another DPS spec

[ymirsson]

When was the last time a raid needed more than 2 tanks? Also, any of your non-performer DPS will be sat if you need to get extra healing. We're talking about DPS anyway. Assassin rogues need some love, but they also have viable specs they can play until they get it. Havoc DHs cannot play another spec that won't completely fuck the raid comp unless one of the tanks wants to DPS. Looking at the logs, pures do have it easier. Just because they begrudgingly don't want to change specs to something doing more damage doesn't mean those specs don't exist or they can't make sacrifices to play them if they are needed to clear a raid.

Does changing specs suck when you have all your crap for your current spec? Sure does. You know what sucks more? Leveling, gearing, learning a completely new class because your main's DPS is suboptimal and you literally cannot respec to another DPS spec

So you said it again, i as a rogue play a class, Havok DHs seemingly play a spec.
That's a classic double standard.

[Fallen Angel]

So you said it again, i as a rogue play a class, Havok DHs seemingly play a spec.
That's a classic double standard.

It's not a double standard. If a rogue wants to DPS, they have 3 specs to do so. If a DH wants to DPS, they have 1. As far as DPS goes, a DH has one spec in its entire class to do so. Pally has one spec in its entire class to do so. Monk has one entire spec in its class to do so. Mages have 3. Hunters have 3. Should we create some pure heal/tank classes so they can bitch as much as you guys are about having suboptimal specs?

And since people are talking about things like utility, give me back shaman only lust so a mage or hunter doesn't take my spot, or give me an immunity/massive damage reduction so I don't have to pay attention to certain mechanics, or clear mechanics without taxing my healers

[Nynax]

So you said it again, i as a rogue play a class, Havok DHs seemingly play a spec.
That's a classic double standard.

Maybe in a literal sense it's a double standard, but the impact of the request is very different. Even if you 100% LOVE Assassination, if the raid says your numbers are too low you can choose to spec swap and stay in the raid. If, however, the raid says a Havoc DH is too low...they just lose their spot. Can't spec swap, there's already two tanks. So SOL; go grind an alt to 60 for 8+hrs and redo the gear grind, thanks.

A Pure can still enjoy playing the content, even as a spec you don't like. No one, however, enjoys the bench.

[ymirsson]

It's not a double standard. If a rogue wants to DPS, they have 3 specs to do so. If a DH wants to DPS, they have 1. As far as DPS goes, a DH has one spec in its entire class to do so. Pally has one spec in its entire class to do so. Monk has one entire spec in its class to do so. Mages have 3. Hunters have 3. Should we create some pure heal/tank classes so they can bitch as much as you guys are about having suboptimal specs?

But where did you find the authority to define that i play DPS? I play (currently) sub rogue. I don't automatically play outlaw and assa too. Just like you and i dont automatically assume that every DH plays both Veng and Havok, or every priest plays shadow and Disc and Holy.
It's either all or none, anything else is useless projecting.

Apart from that, there are definitely levels of play where people can be expected to fill every possible role and or spec with their character. But that is not a general assumption to be made.

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Maybe in a literal sense it's a double standard, but the impact of the request is very different. Even if you 100% LOVE Assassination, if the raid says your numbers are too low you can choose to spec swap and stay in the raid. If, however, the raid says a Havoc DH is too low...they just lose their spot. Can't spec swap, there's already two tanks. So SOL; go grind an alt to 60 for 8+hrs and redo the gear grind, thanks.

A Pure can still enjoy playing the content, even as a spec you don't like. No one, however, enjoys the bench.

If you tell people to change specs, you are either high enough in progress to expect that, or obnoxious tryhards.

[Fallen Angel]

But where did you find the authority to define that i play DPS? I play (currently) sub rogue. I don't automatically play outlaw and assa too. Just like you and i dont automatically assume that every DH plays both Veng and Havok, or every priest plays shadow and Disc and Holy.
It's either all or none, anything else is useless projecting.

Apart from that, there are definitely levels of play where people can be expected to fill every possible role and or spec with their character. But that is not a general assumption to be made.

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If you tell people to change specs, you are either high enough in progress to expect that, or obnoxious tryhards.

I don't get what you're saying with your first sentence. Both of us likely aren't in guilds where playing a suboptimal spec would get us benched anyway. I'm stating in order for a DH, monk, or pally to DPS they are locked into one spec, regardless of how shitty it's doing in the logs. They cannot DPS as any other spec (unless you want to do some shitty healer dps build and gimp your raid). No one has to play another spec if their main dps spec is doing poorly, but at least pures have the option. That's also much better than rerolling a completely new class, which is what the aforementioned classes HAVE to do if they want better DPS.

[Nynax]

But where did you find the authority to define that i play DPS? I play (currently) sub rogue. I don't automatically play outlaw and assa too. Just like you and i dont automatically assume that every DH plays both Veng and Havok, or every priest plays shadow and Disc and Holy.
It's either all or none, anything else is useless projecting.

Apart from that, there are definitely levels of play where people can be expected to fill every possible role and or spec with their character. But that is not a general assumption to be made.

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If you tell people to change specs, you are either high enough in progress to expect that, or obnoxious tryhards.

Every guild I've been in, it's not like there's a leader sitting on some high horse of authority with a power complex. And you're right, it's not the highest of the top end...but they're still trying to progress in their own right.

What happens is a guild raid team is formed based off of interest and who shows up regularly. As long as bosses are going down of obvious progression happens between attempts, generally no one scrutinizes the raid team very hard. It's when you hit that one boss that turns into a wall for your team that leaders start taking a hard look at what needs to be fixed and where. They might notice that these 4 players really aren't keeping up with the other dps and ask them to step it up or they might need to be replaced as one way to improve the teams performance, it's not personal, it's problem solving.

Now, that 70th% player has to figure out how to improve, lots of ways they can do that...but if the spec itself is what's hamstringing them then it's always the easiest switch for them to make. Yes they can "git gud" but they may have already been at their limit. Doesn't mean this raid team doesn't need to solve the problem of the boss they are on. Unfortunately, if they don't have another dps spec to swap to then that choice isn't available and they're just kinda stuck knowing they're holding other people back.

You can call them try hards if you like, but I prefer to respect guilds that still try to put forth an honest effort even if they aren't the best. That's why Blizzard getting tuning right is so important, because it fucks up players relative contributions when it's way off; and making sure a hybrid's single dps spec isn't dead last should be a priority for reasons mentioned.