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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Re4leader1 View Post
    Don't worry, UH will be clunky AND weak when blizz goes too far with their nerf next week...
    Still topping the meters with my 2 other unholy dk friends in the raid. normal/heroic

  2. #42
    Did the people complaining here actually play unholy during SoO or WoD? The entire gameplay loop consisted of trying to do as irrelevant and didn't interact with your kit at all.

    At least post legion unholy actually has a niche that it's committed too instead of being an actual patchwork of mechanics that don't interact at all and don't matter because all that matters is rolling high on casino strike.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Did the people complaining here actually play unholy during SoO or WoD? The entire gameplay loop consisted of trying to do as irrelevant and didn't interact with your kit at all.

    At least post legion unholy actually has a niche that it's committed too instead of being an actual patchwork of mechanics that don't interact at all and don't matter because all that matters is rolling high on casino strike.
    SoO unholy was basically this -

    Wait for trinkets / runeforge proc -> Apply diseases -> Festering Strike to extend the empowered dots as long as possible.

    Festerblight was what the community ended up calling the playstyle.


    Compared to Legion and beyond Unholy... that was pretty boring.

    If I could have 1 thing back from before Legion it would be Necrotic Plague.
    Last edited by AntenoraDK; 2020-12-30 at 09:09 PM.

  4. #44
    Festerblight in SoO? After the RPPM nerfs and the Runic corruption fix? After the changes to the Feather?

    So that's a no then?
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    What were they thinking when they reiterated on this class over the past expansions? It's like they took several puzzle pieces and duct taped them together instead of solving the puzzle to make a fitting picture.
    We've got a pet, we've got the runic system, we've got festering wounds, we've got a disease... and it's like most of these parts function independantly of one another. It doesn't flow together.

    You manage your pet but it has no effect on festering wounds, the other core mechanic. You manage your wounds but then you get random Death Coil procs thrown at you. On top, you need to reapply a dot every couple seconds. Not complex or difficult - Everything is just so disjunct!

    I guess I'm just frustrated because I enjoy the spec and I can see that it could yet be better.
    Agree with everything you say, but you forgot the burning dumpster fire that is outbreak. A button that you have to stop DPSing to press every ~30 seconds or your DPS suffers, how awesomely engaging lol. It's basically a DK version of Rend and like Rend should have been made an optional talent, that or it should cost RP instead of a rune, be free on an X second CD or simply refreshed by Scourge Strike or something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hasslehoof View Post
    it's so fucking sad what we've got compared to what we had.
    In fairness this sentence pretty much sums up DKs as a whole, the entire ride has been an almost downhill journey since day one, we started off with six specs then they got trimmed down to three because it was too much effort to balance for a new expan (even though the Blood DPS players, Frost tanks, etc didn't care about being third/second best they just enjoyed playing).

  6. #46
    You enjoy the spec? lol... ok man.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Uglytoes View Post
    The two times I really enjoyed Unholy were when Festerblight was a thing in ToT during MoP and during ToS in Legion with the Valk'yr buffed by Death Coil and hitting with a massive 20 stack of Cold Heart just blowing everyone out of the water in the opener.
    You still blow people out the water with army, apoc, blight and dark transformation.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm sorry but having one ability that gives you 4 pets for 15 seconds based on your festering wounds every 1.5min is exactly what I'm talking about. Apart from those two CDs you mentioned 90% of the time you're just pressing buttons that have no interactivity with any other mechanics of the spec. It's convoluted and mind-numbingly simple at the same time. Hell, the oldschool rune system was more interesting than this.
    so which spec has more then 2 buttons directly interacting with each other, apart from a resource mechanic? Unholy is not the last place in this metric.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I fully agree. Death Knight in general is an absolute monstrosity in terms of design since Legion.
    I second this.
    I stopped playing UH almost enterely after Legion because I loathe the wounds mechanic with all my heart, it is very reminiscing of the old rogues combo points system and ffs it was changed for a reason. Blood and frost also have their problems to deal with, and in fact the class in general feels very disjointed, like there is no clear direction for any of the 3 specs.
    I'm not saying we should return to pre-Legion design, but for sure this class is in dire need of a fresh start.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Medrawd View Post
    I second this.
    I stopped playing UH almost enterely after Legion because I loathe the wounds mechanic with all my heart, it is very reminiscing of the old rogues combo points system and ffs it was changed for a reason. Blood and frost also have their problems to deal with, and in fact the class in general feels very disjointed, like there is no clear direction for any of the 3 specs.
    I'm not saying we should return to pre-Legion design, but for sure this class is in dire need of a fresh start.
    I agree with this. It's like the old combo point system but you only have one finisher and it has a 1.5min cooldown. It's completely and utterly retarded. When it comes to modern class design it looks like they're just throwing random shit at the spec and see what sticks.

  11. #51
    Dot classes as a whole were gutted with the removal of dot snapshotting.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm sorry but having one ability that gives you 4 pets for 15 seconds based on your festering wounds every 1.5min is exactly what I'm talking about. Apart from those two CDs you mentioned 90% of the time you're just pressing buttons that have no interactivity with any other mechanics of the spec. It's convoluted and mind-numbingly simple at the same time. Hell, the oldschool rune system was more interesting than this.
    Lol you're just moving the goal post at this point first you say most mechanics dont interact then i present just two examples and you respond with "well those dont count".

    Err i didnt even talk about the interactions between deathcoil and timmy or unholy frenzy and apoc nor dnd or death chains. The fact of the matter is most spells interact with 90% of each other not the other way around.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by maccajoe View Post
    Lol you're just moving the goal post at this point first you say most mechanics dont interact then i present just two examples and you respond with "well those dont count".

    Err i didnt even talk about the interactions between deathcoil and timmy or unholy frenzy and apoc nor dnd or death chains. The fact of the matter is most spells interact with 90% of each other not the other way around.
    You don't know what "moving the goal posts" means so stop throwing these terms around. It's embarassing.

    Apocalypse is a 1.5min cooldown that changes nothing about your gameplay and has no impact on Timmy or your plague (which are the other two overarching mechanics UH deals with). It's just a burst CD that you execute the same way, every time with no thought or decisionmaking involved. Just because you stack it with other cooldowns (like Unholy Blight) does not mean it's an example of interactive gameplay. I mean, Festermight in BfA gave you a strength buff for bursting Festering Wounds which technically buffs your little Timmy as well. Does that mean this constitutes interactive gameplay because bursting wounds buffs your pet? Of course not. Synergy =/= interactivity.

    An actual example of interactive gameplay would be something like the legendary Deadliest Coil because it connects two separate mechanics of UH and puts them together in a way that potentially alters your gameplay.

    Another example would be the anima power Plaguebringer because it allows your Festering Strike to make your Plague tick faster but even then it's not really a good example because it's just passive damage that has no meaningful impact on your gameplay at the end of the day.

    Then again, those two examples are also both borrowed powers and therefor not even a inherent part of UH gameplay.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    You don't know what "moving the goal posts" means so stop throwing these terms around. It's embarassing.

    Apocalypse is a 1.5min cooldown that changes nothing about your gameplay and has no impact on Timmy or your plague (which are the other two overarching mechanics UH deals with). It's just a burst CD that you execute the same way, every time with no thought or decisionmaking involved. Just because you stack it with other cooldowns (like Unholy Blight) does not mean it's an example of interactive gameplay. I mean, Festermight in BfA gave you a strength buff for bursting Festering Wounds which technically buffs your little Timmy as well. Does that mean this constitutes interactive gameplay because bursting wounds buffs your pet? Of course not. Synergy =/= interactivity.

    An actual example of interactive gameplay would be something like the legendary Deadliest Coil because it connects two separate mechanics of UH and puts them together in a way that potentially alters your gameplay.

    Another example would be the anima power Plaguebringer because it allows your Festering Strike to make your Plague tick faster but even then it's not really a good example because it's just passive damage that has no meaningful impact on your gameplay at the end of the day.

    Then again, those two examples are also both borrowed powers and therefor not even a inherent part of UH gameplay.
    "Moving the goalposts or shifting the goalposts is an idiom which means changing the terms of a debate or a conflict after it has started"

    Your core argument at the start was "Because the way I see it, most mechanics UH deals with are pretty disjointed. " Now you have switched to "interactive gameplay" or interactivity with other mechanics (which is extremely vague and meaningless). Because clear discernible examples of jointed mechanics have been listed. Literal definition of moving the goalposts.
    No matter how much you think stacking a CD is not jointed does not mean it isnt. When its a notable DPS if you do not line up cds.

    Lack of interactivity would equal=just press every button when off CD, you can do that sure but its a DPS loss because it actually matters.
    "thought or decisionmaking involved." Didnt realise making sure you burst Apoc with 4 wounds on with isnt "decision making" which btw interacts with unholy assault regarding its wound application and haste buff, which you want in a certain order.

    If you think the way to do an M+ difficult pack is to just pop all CDS drop DnD and hope for the best is how you play unholy then yea sure DEFS no interactivity, but if you have half a brain and understand the class then you would know the order of abilities and skills is extremely important because they all INTERACT with each other.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by maccajoe View Post
    "Moving the goalposts or shifting the goalposts is an idiom which means changing the terms of a debate or a conflict after it has started"

    Your core argument at the start was "Because the way I see it, most mechanics UH deals with are pretty disjointed. " Now you have switched to "interactive gameplay" or interactivity with other mechanics (which is extremely vague and meaningless). Because clear discernible examples of jointed mechanics have been listed. Literal definition of moving the goalposts.
    No matter how much you think stacking a CD is not jointed does not mean it isnt. When its a notable DPS if you do not line up cds.
    You never asked me to clarify what my "core argument" was. Instead you assumed what I meant when I called the mechanics "disjointed" and based on that you claimed I was ""moving the goalposts"" when I elaborated on my initial claim. It's actually really funny to me that you fail to understand what moving the goalposts means and why it doesn't apply.

    You named three burst CDs that have a very small degree of interactivity as a counterargument for why UH's gameplay isn't disjointed. The fact that this is the best thing you can come up with pretty much proves my point. Once every 1.5min you have to press three buttons in the correct order and apart from that none of the spec's mechanics interact with each other. Outside burst all you do is A) don't overcap on Festering Wounds B) don't overcap on runic power. There literally are no overarching mechanics that connect your plagues, your pets and your festering wounds.
    In other words: it's a disjointed mess.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    I strongly disagree and enjoy the spec very much and feel like i have some nice flow going when i run m+.

    Pet has effect on festerinng wound if you spec into infected claws. I feel our "core mechanic" this patch has moved away from festering wounds though. This patch it's all about stacking mastery and getting maximum pet damage out with unholy blight and army of the damned. Pump out armies and DT, drop the cooldown asap with death coils and epidemics.

    It is a slightly different feel to BFA, but all in all I think I enjoy it more and actually feel good playing.

    How could you see it improved? Where's the turnoff?
    fully agree

  17. #57
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    I agree with op unholy has many mechanics that really don't interact with each other (for the most part).
    Im not talking about how fun/unfun the spec is or how good its numbers are this is pure based gameplay

    you could essentially cut all 3 mayor systems uh runs on without mayorly impacting the others:
    For exsample how much would the wound playstyle change if we were to cut the plague?
    it wouldn't, and thats why it feels "tagged on"
    same with the pets, cut them the wounds remain mayorly unaffacted (besides apo every 1,5 min)

    the only things that links 2 of these systems are the talents infected claws (links pets/ghoul to wounds) and festering blight (links pets/ghoul to plague).
    (im ignoring apo as its cd is over 1min and therefore not pressed frequently enough to call it "interactivity")

    if infected claws was baseline and plague would somehow buff the ghule in a meaningful way like it gets attkspeed for every plague up (literally the first thing that came to my mind) that'd be enough do link the different systems.

    you could then even go a step further and enhance one of the major systems with talents to go for a plague/pet/wound build that would be perfect.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    You never asked me to clarify what my "core argument" was. Instead you assumed what I meant when I called the mechanics "disjointed" and based on that you claimed I was ""moving the goalposts"" when I elaborated on my initial claim. It's actually really funny to me that you fail to understand what moving the goalposts means and why it doesn't apply.

    You named three burst CDs that have a very small degree of interactivity as a counterargument for why UH's gameplay isn't disjointed. The fact that this is the best thing you can come up with pretty much proves my point. Once every 1.5min you have to press three buttons in the correct order and apart from that none of the spec's mechanics interact with each other. Outside burst all you do is A) don't overcap on Festering Wounds B) don't overcap on runic power. There literally are no overarching mechanics that connect your plagues, your pets and your festering wounds.
    In other words: it's a disjointed mess.
    You are wrong.
    They are all intertwined, except maybe for the dots, which are just that. dots.

    Army of the dead + apocalypse + DT cd's are all affected by death coil (reduce CD / extend duration)
    In order to be able to properly spam death coil, you need to manage our "plagues" (cringe) to maximize damage while building runic power. To further boost pet damage you pop unholy blight when the cd's align. It's all connected, and if you aren't feeling it, you probably don't understand the class and are underperforming.

    The above paragraph basically shows how everything is anything but disjointed. We need to weave all our stuff together to be effective, if you aren't properly using all the abilities together to empower the others, you're doing it wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm sorry but having one ability that gives you 4 pets for 15 seconds based on your festering wounds every 1.5min is exactly what I'm talking about. Apart from those two CDs you mentioned 90% of the time you're just pressing buttons that have no interactivity with any other mechanics of the spec. It's convoluted and mind-numbingly simple at the same time. Hell, the oldschool rune system was more interesting than this.
    you are pressing the other buttons to bring the army out faster. come on, guy, do you even read what abilities do?
    I 3d print stuff

  19. #59
    Agree with OP very much - it's a disjointed spec. I remember when Preach introduced the spec in Legion, he said something to the effect of "it may seem like build wounds, burst wounds, keep up one dot is all there is, but it's so much more"... but I've given unholy a number of tries since, and that's what the spec is outside of burst cooldowns that have limited synergy with each other. That doesn't make the spec necessary not fun (for some people), I myself quite enjoy another spec which is disjointed - elemental shaman -, and there are multiple specs with a core, fundamental gameplay loop I don't enjoy, for example fire mage which is all about setting up instant pyroblasts/flamestrikes.

    Wouldn't mind another rework. I really like the death knight fantasy, but neither frost nor unholy are appealing at all to me in their current state. I don't think unholy would enjoy much popularity atm if it wasn't for the very high performance and the soon-to-be-nerfed OPness of stacking multiple DKs for mass Anti-magic Zones (like Max from Limit or someone said, if DKs do comparable dmg to other melee but also bring AMZ, why wouldn't you stack them).

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    You are wrong.
    They are all intertwined, except maybe for the dots, which are just that. dots.

    Army of the dead + apocalypse + DT cd's are all affected by death coil (reduce CD / extend duration)
    In order to be able to properly spam death coil, you need to manage our "plagues" (cringe) to maximize damage while building runic power. To further boost pet damage you pop unholy blight when the cd's align. It's all connected, and if you aren't feeling it, you probably don't understand the class and are underperforming.

    The above paragraph basically shows how everything is anything but disjointed. We need to weave all our stuff together to be effective, if you aren't properly using all the abilities together to empower the others, you're doing it wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -



    you are pressing the other buttons to bring the army out faster. come on, guy, do you even read what abilities do?
    This is embarassing.

    1.) Outside the opener UB/DT are the only CDs you have to make sure you line up regularly, at least until Army is back up.

    2.) You use Apocalypse on cooldown. You don't hold it to line up with anything but UF(if you specced into it) or you're running Convocation which you won't be. So it's most definitely disjointed from your other cooldowns.

    Do YOU read abilities or do any research or just spout nonsense?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adoxe View Post
    If anyone still believes Sylvanas is responsible, you've not been paying attention.

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