Rescue Jaina from Torghast??

[Aresk]

On the other hand, what was actually known at the time from the in-story POV was that Jaina herself has violated Dalaran's neutrality and as such betrayed the city. Even before the Sunreaver agent did. Which is something she herself admitted. It's Jaina herself who said that she was aiding Darnassus not as an advisor or in a research role, but by personally engaging in hostile actions against the Horde forces trying to breach into Darnassus, personally killing, wounding or capturing them as POWs, depending on what her traps did.

Sorry to reply to an old post, but I was going through some of the questline articles and was curious about this point. As far as I know, the Highborne were responsible for moving the Bell to Darnassus; Dalaran resources were not used. Jaina personally assisted in securing the Bell once it was in Darnassus, but that wasn't using Dalaran. Earlier in the questline, Jaina had said that the Sunreavers shouldn't be forced to cut ties with the Horde despite pressures from both Varian and Anduin to that effect (why Varian wanted her to kick all the Sunreavers out and then later yelled at her for doing it seems contradictory, but I didn't write the questline), so likewise she shouldn't be expected to cut ties with the Alliance. Aethas and Rommath were helping Garrosh identify mogu artifacts before Jaina was assisting Darnassus, and that likewise was not considered a broach of Dalaran's neutrality. It was only when Dalaran resources were used for supporting one faction that a broach of neutrality was brought up.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying Jaina is in the right with the purge. The portal leading to a group of Sunreavers is pretty damning evidence but far from conclusive; it definitely did not merit instantly attacking the Sunreavers standing guard.

[Lolites]

Flat out wrong. The patch trailer and notes made clear they were embarking on conquest in response to the Cataclysm.

Zul's troops, ships, and supplies were all provided by Rastakhan. In BfA, the supposedly disgraced Zul is a member of Rastakhan's council.

yeah trailer, they SAID that, and then their actions ingame said otherwise... but ofc you give more weight to words, alliance is all talk about peace and then your actions betray your words...

[Newname1234567890]

Jaina's worse trait is that she's a hypocrite. She made Thereamore a target for the Horde then claims it was "wrong" to destroy it. Thermore was a military port. She can crow on about wanting peace as much as she like if she didn't actually act on it, it doesn't matter.

Tangent: Overall Tides of War does a really bad job at painting the Destruction of Thereamore as a this really evil thing when it's just not. It's the most sensible cause of action for the Horde during War Time.

[Mehrunes]

Cleansing is a strong word for what happened in Dalaran. Or even purge for that matters. And it is not like the BE brought it on them themselves. They gave a powerful tool after they stole it to a bloodthirsty maniac. Did the bombing of Theramore already happened at that point ?

Jaina by her own admission at the start of the whole thing tried to remove the Sunreavers out of the city by force. Jesus fucking Christ, I know you lot don't know much about the lore, including the Alliance questlines, but try to at least familiarize yourself with the topic enough so that the very character you're trying to excuse doesn't contradict you. Because what she did is literally what cleansing means. "Or even Purge, for that matter", because they mean the same thing.

And the Sunreavers did not steal it. The player did with the help from Reliquary. All one Sunreaver did was help smuggling it through Dalaran. And Jaina had no evidence even of that, as all she had was a portal from Darnassus to Dalaran. And Theramore is meaningless here. Jaina was an Alliance leader back then, she wasn't anymore. And as the leader of the Council of Six she had so little individual power she didn't even have a tie-breaking vote or couldn't leave the city without informing the rest of the Council. Yet she started the cleansing by herself with no input of the Council. Even though she had no tangible evidence against the Sunreavers in the first place. And despite the fact that she violated Dalaran's neutrality before the theft even happened. Again, by her own admission.

Obviously, so that is why the Alliance had to intervene to "monitor" the Horde since as usual, they were meddling with forces well beyong their understanding.

Cute, but Alliance has no authority to monitor the Horde either. Which part of the Horde being a sovereign entity that's not subordinate to the Alliance do you not comprehend? Try all you want, but you won't manage to bend over backwards your way into a reality where the Alliance intruding in Horde's mining camp isn't an Alliance aggression.

[Newname1234567890]

i played it, as i said, they never atacked horde/alliance, they reinforced TROLL cities that we attacked then, and in pandaria SEPARATE group of zandalari invaded pandaria (not horde or alliance teritory), which actualy, horde and alliance DID TOO...
sure, they didnt mind fighting us if we get in the way, but they didnt atack us...

I'm pretty sure sending troops to aid the Amani is a declaration of war against the Blood Elves and so the Horde as well.

[Feanoro]

well thank god we wiped half a city bcs FEW of them actualy did something... no reason to actualy try to find out who is guilty BEFORE SLAUGHTERING people, totaly justifiable...

Want to knock off the hyperbole? Neither in canon nor gameplay was half the city wiped out.

and i NEVER denied horde did reaaaaaly bad shit, i just hate people excusing all the bad shit alliance did by "ethnic purge is fine if it caught one guilty person" or "horde did worse" - thats hipocrisy and extreme alibism... Hitler wasnt nice guy bcs he killed less people than Stalin or Mao, he was still a cunt...
alliance mass murdering civilians is waved like nothing, but its not "fine" bcs horde did worse, if thats your best defense you have to be realy dense to think you are "good guys"

The quests clearly state you are attempting to arrest them for questioning, killing only when they turn hostile and attack you. I notice you're ignoring the part where the quests provide proof the Sunreavers were involved, instead choosing to complain about a comparison I never made. Also, I don't recall insulting you, kindly afford me the same courtesy.

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yeah trailer, they SAID that, and then their actions ingame said otherwise... but ofc you give more weight to words, alliance is all talk about peace and then your actions betray your words...

The trailer is published by Blizzard and that makes it canon. Too bad if you don't like it.

[Specialka]

Jaina by her own admission at the start of the whole thing tried to remove the Sunreavers out of the city by force. Jesus fucking Christ, I know you lot don't know much about the lore, including the Alliance questlines, but try to at least familiarize yourself with the topic enough so that the very character you're trying to excuse doesn't contradict you. Because what she did is literally what cleansing means. "Or even Purge, for that matter", because they mean the same thing.

And the Sunreavers did not steal it. The player did with the help from Reliquary. All one Sunreaver did was help smuggling it through Dalaran. And Jaina had no evidence even of that, as all she had was a portal from Darnassus to Dalaran. And Theramore is meaningless here. Jaina was an Alliance leader back then, she wasn't anymore. And as the leader of the Council of Six she had so little individual power she didn't even have a tie-breaking vote or couldn't leave the city without informing the rest of the Council. Yet she started the cleansing by herself with no input of the Council. Even though she had no tangible evidence against the Sunreavers in the first place. And despite the fact that she violated Dalaran's neutrality before the theft even happened. Again, by her own admission.




Cute, but Alliance has no authority to monitor the Horde either. Which part of the Horde being a sovereign entity that's not subordinate to the Alliance do you not comprehend? Try all you want, but you won't manage to bend over backwards your way into a reality where the Alliance intruding in Horde's mining camp isn't an Alliance aggression.

Alliance has the right to monitor the Horde activities as they have proven time and time again that they are not trustworthy and would burn entire cities if asked. Wait... Simple as that.

There is no truce or whatever between parent and children. One leads the other.

[Lolites]

Jaina's worse trait is that she's a hypocrite.

that goes for whole alliance to be honest
undead are abomination, lets invite worgen to our midst
belfs are too power hungry, lets invite void elfs who were too powerhungry even for blood elfs
plague is bad, lets BURN some civilians!
we literaly folow horde to different continent to fight them, how dare they not accept peace
horde cant let BFA behind, lets pout about gilneas that was in cataclysm

and so on

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I'm pretty sure sending troops to aid the Amani is a declaration of war against the Blood Elves and so the Horde as well.

eeeh... is it? those troops were not atacking, they were defending city agains invaders (us), its not like there was open war... seems like we invade them and then complain they fought us... kind of like with sunreavers during purge...

[Specialka]

that goes for whole alliance to be honest
undead are abomination, lets invite worgen to our midst
belfs are too power hungry, lets invite void elfs who were too powerhungry even for blood elfs
plague is bad, lets BURN some civilians!
we literaly folow horde to different continent to fight them, how dare they not accept peace
horde cant let BFA behind, lets pout about gilneas that was in cataclysm

and so on

Did the worgen tried to destroy the living ? I do not think so. Being a monster or an abonimation is more your behavior rather than your appearance.
At least, the void elf want to use their power for the greater good of all while the BE want or wanted to use for their "own" greater good.

[Mehrunes]

Sorry to reply to an old post, but I was going through some of the questline articles and was curious about this point. As far as I know, the Highborne were responsible for moving the Bell to Darnassus; Dalaran resources were not used. Jaina personally assisted in securing the Bell once it was in Darnassus, but that wasn't using Dalaran. Earlier in the questline, Jaina had said that the Sunreavers shouldn't be forced to cut ties with the Horde despite pressures from both Varian and Anduin to that effect (why Varian wanted her to kick all the Sunreavers out and then later yelled at her for doing it seems contradictory, but I didn't write the questline), so likewise she shouldn't be expected to cut ties with the Alliance. Aethas and Rommath were helping Garrosh identify mogu artifacts before Jaina was assisting Darnassus, and that likewise was not considered a broach of Dalaran's neutrality. It was only when Dalaran resources were used for supporting one faction that a broach of neutrality was brought up.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying Jaina is in the right with the purge. The portal leading to a group of Sunreavers is pretty damning evidence but far from conclusive; it definitely did not merit instantly attacking the Sunreavers standing guard.

How many times does it need to be said? Jaina was the leader of the Kirin Tor. She herself was a Dalaran resource. And since the Alliance city-state she was the leader of went up in a poof of Arcane dust, she had no actual Alliance ties anymore. Instead she joined the neutral Kirin Tor, at Khadgar's invitation. Unlike the Sunreavers, who were still citizens of a current member nation of the Horde.

On top of that, when Aethas went to Silvermoon, he went there to study some Sha junk. Which has nothing to do with neutrality or a breach of thereof, just like Switzerland was able to merrily stash Nazi gold during WWII. But if the president of Switrzerland came to a German city just as it was attacked by the French and then personally engaged in military actions against said French, it would very much constitute a breach of neutrality because of what neutrality actually entails. Yet Jaina engaged precisely in this type of behavior. By her own admission she took a side in an ongoing engagement between two other parties that were at war with each other.

And you don't even have to take my word for it. Once again an argument in favor of Jaina is shat on by Jaina herself. Because when Horde was marching on Theramore and Kinndy proposed to reach out to Dalaran for help, Jaina responded that by asking them to aid the Alliance against the Horde during a siege of an Alliance city she'd be asking them to break their neutrality.

Finally, the portal led to Dalaran, not "a group of Sunreavers". For all she knew it could have been created by the shark in the sewers, because other than the mere existence of the portal she had no other evidence whatsoever. If the portal was even made from Dalaran and not by the Reliquary members on the Darnassian side.

Alliance has the right to monitor the Horde activities as they have proven time and time again that they are not trustworthy and would burn entire cities if asked. Wait... Simple as that.

There is no truce or whatever between parent and children. One leads the other.

Repeat your nonsense all you like, but the Alliance is not the Horde's supervisor. And nothing you say will ever change that.

[Specialka]

How many times does it need to be said? Jaina was the leader of the Kirin Tor. She herself was a Dalaran resource. And since the Alliance city-state she was the leader of went up in a poof of Arcane dust, she had no actual Alliance ties anymore. Instead she joined the neutral Kirin Tor, at Khadgar's invitation. Unlike the Sunreavers, who were still citizens of a current member nation of the Horde.

On top of that, when Aethas went to Silvermoon, he went there to study some Sha junk. Which has nothing to do with neutrality or a breach of thereof, just like Switzerland was able to merrily stash Nazi gold during WWII. But if the president of Switrzerland came to a German city just as it was attacked by the French and then personally engaged in military actions against said French, it would very much constitute a breach of neutrality because of what neutrality actually entails. Yet Jaina engaged precisely in this type of behavior. By her own admission she took a side in an ongoing engagement between two other parties that were at war with each other.

And the portal led to Dalaran, not "a group of Sunreavers". For all she knew it could have been created by the shark in the sewers, because other than the mere existence of the portal she had no other evidence whatsoever. If the portal was even made from Dalaran and not by the Reliquary members on the Darnassian side.




Repeat your nonsense all you like, but the Alliance is not the Horde's supervisor. And nothing you say will ever change that.

When the Horde will have proven themselves that they can be trustworthy, they will be off the leash. They are not there yet.

[LemonDemonGirl]

them warring on us? i dont remember zandalari ever atacking us, actualy in vanila they were our friends and we helped them in ZG against Hakkar...
perhaps you mean like they send reinforcements to other troll cities WE attacked?

closest they ever get to atacking us afaik was in padaria, and that was fraction that separated from actual zandalari wasnt it? and even then, they didnt realy atack us, they atacked pandaria, which is neither horde nor aliance teritory...

The Zandalari that attacked Pandaria were a small group under Zul, and he did it against Rastakhan's wishes afaik

[Varodoc]

The Zandalari that attacked Pandaria were a small group under Zul, and he did it against Rastakhan's wishes afaik

Wrong, Talanji said Rastakhan found Zul's promises of a united troll empire alluring, and if Zul was defying his king, he wouldn't have been allowed to keep his seat on the Zanchuli Council. Rastakhan is equally guilty.

[Lolites]

The Zandalari that attacked Pandaria were a small group under Zul, and he did it against Rastakhan's wishes afaik

well even if Rasthakan straight out ordered it, its not atacking horde or alliance, its atacking pandaria, which to be fair, both horde and alliance kind of invaded too...

[Daronokk]

And since this thread has devolved into repetitions of beaten to death debunked Horde bullshit, time for the reply those claims deserve.

Memes are not allowed. Troll.

And honestly you think the Alliance never did questionable shit? They commited plenty of crimes themselves. What a joke you are.

Infracted.

[Feanoro]

Memes are not allowed. Troll.

Those pictures have been posted in this subforum many times before and by many others before me. If you want to quote rules, you're not allowed to accuse others of trolling.

And honestly you think the Alliance never did questionable shit?

No, and I never said that. Horde fans sure do like creating strawmen.

They commited plenty of crimes themselves.

They have. Never on the scale of the Horde's, not even in the same galaxy.

What a joke you are.

Since you like to quote forum rules, are you aware of the one about ad hominem?

[Newname1234567890]

that goes for whole alliance to be honest
undead are abomination, lets invite worgen to our midst
belfs are too power hungry, lets invite void elfs who were too powerhungry even for blood elfs
plague is bad, lets BURN some civilians!
we literaly folow horde to different continent to fight them, how dare they not accept peace
horde cant let BFA behind, lets pout about gilneas that was in cataclysm

and so on

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eeeh... is it? those troops were not atacking, they were defending city agains invaders (us), its not like there was open war... seems like we invade them and then complain they fought us... kind of like with sunreavers during purge...

The Amani are basically in an open state of war with the Blood Elf. So I'd say so.

[Venziir]

You know, its always made me wonder, where did idea of horde being "edgelord" faction even came from?

Well being allied with nihilistic, cackling and downright evil zombies wearing gimp-masks and plague doctor outfits probably did the trick.

[Lolites]

The Amani are basically in an open state of war with the Blood Elf. So I'd say so.

are they? pretty much we go to their villages during questing and then zulaman, they dont really attack, and even that are more of a skirmishes than war, the war (between amani and aliance) ended years ago... and the troops from zandalar are ONLY inside zulaman, so not realy helping them push blood elfs out of THEIR ancestral lands...
pretty much all zandalari do in zulaman (and zulgurub) is protecting their kin from being killed of by us, and even that not by helping them attack us but rather protect their own cities...

[RasAlhage]

Also, LOL at blaming Jaina for the Forsaken losing Undercity when Sylvanas literally set the stage for that battle to happen and nuked the whole place down. This subforum never ceases to amaze me

It's like accusing Kutuzov of burning Moscow and saying that Napoleon is not to blame.
It's the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time.