Rescue Jaina from Torghast??

[Raisei]

The Jailer is older then Oribos what means the current state of the shadowlands is not the way it once was.
So you might call the Jailer the big bad guy of the universe but you might be actually totally wrong about it.

For sure. People that maintain an endless tower for torturing soul for eternity tend to usually be really nice!

[Varodoc]

For sure. People that maintain an endless tower for torturing soul for eternity tend to usually be really nice!

He thinks Jaina is responsible for the Blight Bombing of Lordaeron, what's the point?

[Raisei]

and in wow they add forsaken to the horde (that even in w3 they werent absolutely like thrall's horde), so?

expense? forsaken ever stopped to let the alliance to be boring paladins paragon of goodness? the nelfs happy tree friends? it hurt you that not everyone like your human light boy? next is to cut maghars? the blood elves werent enough?
until your fantasy is be a literal next level mary sue loved by even the enemies what the forsaken characterization remove from warcraft? really, killing and torturing fucking abstract npcs doesnt limit yours rps in any single way.
and kek about bdsm, grow up dude...



yes infact thats the problem, they sold to me a convenience alliance, not the peacnik coolaid they are trying to force on me now. they still tried to sell me that rp for all bfa (even with the trash that the baine quest was) where i could imprison eitrigg and parade with him. praise all that crying. damn these are only more rps...
and sociopath forsaken arent canon? lol, the hillsbrad quest (or any pre calia forsaken character/quest to be fair) is still there.

thats the difference btw. im not forcing human paladin n.65178543 to become a lovecratian horror, i absolutely dont care. let anduin be him all the time. its not my cup of tea and i cant care less (until he become a cancer even for the horde like now). but fuck let me play a story that blizzard wrote for 16 years (lesser to be fair, tons of time where the forsaken were completely MIA). dont force me to save for the 2° or 3° time that fucking tyrande thats the epithome of what all my race hate (light&nature). dont force me in fucking incoherent stories like argus where my character is suppoused to burn from light but i have to start a fucking light engine????
stop calling me a living for the love of the jailer!

I think the problem is that you are expecting this MMO to have as intricate a plot as a single-player RPG. There is simply no way for an MMO to adept it's main plot to the whims of every player. Not even SWTOR manages that and it is as close to a single player RPG as an MMO can get.

This game assumes and plays out with your character being a decent person, yes there are outliers with the quests in Hillsbard and now with the Loyalists, but you still ARE the Champion of Azeroth. A hero. That is how the story will treat you, because that is how the majority of people want to be treated in a game.

And btw. My Death Knight is also constantly adressed as "mortal" by everyone in the SLs. It's weird, but simply can't be helped.

You can make your headcannon as you wish, but the game will not bend to it. If you want to control the outcome of a game you need to play one that is not played by millions of others as well. I suggest Divinity 2.

[VladlTutushkin]

and in wow they add forsaken to the horde (that even in w3 they werent absolutely like thrall's horde), so?

expense? forsaken ever stopped to let the alliance to be boring paladins paragon of goodness? the nelfs happy tree friends? it hurt you that not everyone like your human light boy? next is to cut maghars? the blood elves werent enough?
until your fantasy is be a literal next level mary sue loved by even the enemies what the forsaken characterization remove from warcraft? really, killing and torturing fucking abstract npcs doesnt limit yours rps in any single way.
and kek about bdsm, grow up dude...



yes infact thats the problem, they sold to me a convenience alliance, not the peacnik coolaid they are trying to force on me now. they still tried to sell me that rp for all bfa (even with the trash that the baine quest was) where i could imprison eitrigg and parade with him. praise all that crying. damn these are only more rps...
and sociopath forsaken arent canon? lol, the hillsbrad quest (or any pre calia forsaken character/quest to be fair) is still there.

thats the difference btw. im not forcing human paladin n.65178543 to become a lovecratian horror, i absolutely dont care. let anduin be him all the time. its not my cup of tea and i cant care less (until he become a cancer even for the horde like now). but fuck let me play a story that blizzard wrote for 16 years (lesser to be fair, tons of time where the forsaken were completely MIA). dont force me to save for the 2° or 3° time that fucking tyrande thats the epithome of what all my race hate (light&nature). dont force me in fucking incoherent stories like argus where my character is suppoused to burn from light but i have to start a fucking light engine????
stop calling me a living for the love of the jailer!

It seems i have to explain to you what i meant because you are unable to understand. Its not your personal edgy fantasy and RP that is a problem. But rather the way it comes at expense of every other race - certain horde races want to have honor or maybe just NOT be a band of genocidal maniacs? Too bad! Have to chug along with forsaken and their evil-barbie "queen" and then take the hit for that too.
Alliance dosent want to play a victim/punching bag for your entertainment? Too bad! Someone has to be a victim for the villain and since there always will be "non factional story" where two factions have to set aside their differences and all that we HAVE to forgive and forget which results in enormous cuckoldry which is neither heroic nor good.
Now do you understand? Being an edgy villain is fine, to each their own but in order for you to be this way everybody else has to either be a goon or a victim.

[Martymark]

Just last expansion, Jaina was the main villian for Horde players, actively trying to kill them repeatedly. She was a raid boss that killed a "goodguy" Horde leader, defeated the Horde player, laughed at them and ran away.

Making the Horde player rescue her is almost as stupid as forcing them to use Dalaran as their capital city after the Purge.

[VladlTutushkin]

Just last expansion, Jaina was the main villian for Horde players, actively trying to kill them repeatedly. She was a raid boss that killed a "goodguy" Horde leader, defeated the Horde player, laughed at them and ran away.

Making the Horde player rescue her is almost as stupid as forcing them to use Dalaran as their capital city after the Purge.

And horde cut through two whole zones in a murderous rampage and burned third one to ash committing a genocide and yet here we are forgiving you and shaking hands and all that. So yeah, get over it and go save Jaina because if Alliance can get over a genocide horde should get over a death of an arrogant troll king who was useless to you anyway.

[Varodoc]

Just last expansion, Jaina was the main villian for Horde players, actively trying to kill them repeatedly. She was a raid boss that killed a "goodguy" Horde leader, defeated the Horde player, laughed at them and ran away.

Making the Horde player rescue her is almost as stupid as forcing them to use Dalaran as their capital city after the Purge.

Jaina was not a villain... villain =/= antagonist.

[tromage2]

And horde cut through two whole zones in a murderous rampage and burned third one to ash committing a genocide and yet here we are forgiving you and shaking hands and all that. So yeah, get over it and go save Jaina because if Alliance can get over a genocide horde should get over a death of an arrogant troll king who was useless to you anyway.

When did you see any Horde shaking hands with the Alliance? lore-wise the Horde and Alliance are still on Azeroth that is why the leaders stayed back to keep the peace i think they even tell us that just before we open the gate. So if you think they are all friends on Azeroth is not true.
We heroes and the Ebon blade are in the shadowlands.

And Baine and Thrall both are basicly Alliance members, you cant really say that about Jaina.

[VladlTutushkin]

When did you see any Horde shaking hands with the Alliance? lore-wise the Horde and Alliance are still on Azeroth that is why the leaders stayed back to keep the peace i think they even tell us that just before we open the gate.
We heroes and the Ebon blade are in the shadowlands.

And Baine and Thrall both are basicly Alliance members, you cant really say that about Jaina.

Entire Alliance leadership aside from Tyrande is both hands for peace, even dark iron queen Moira. So if horde dosent do anything nobody in Alliance will. Hell, even Genn simmered down in the books.

[omeomorfismo]

I think the problem is that you are expecting this MMO to have as intricate a plot as a single-player RPG. There is simply no way for an MMO to adept it's main plot to the whims of every player. Not even SWTOR manages that and it is as close to a single player RPG as an MMO can get.

This game assumes and plays out with your character being a decent person, yes there are outliers with the quests in Hillsbard and now with the Loyalists, but you still ARE the Champion of Azeroth. A hero. That is how the story will treat you, because that is how the majority of people want to be treated in a game.

And btw. My Death Knight is also constantly adressed as "mortal" by everyone in the SLs. It's weird, but simply can't be helped.

You can make your headcannon as you wish, but the game will not bend to it. If you want to control the outcome of a game you need to play one that is not played by millions of others as well. I suggest Divinity 2.

i dont want to bend the game. if i have to be raided every expansion from alliance because muuuh torture, i will welcome, i will love that. cata forsaken was the pinnacle where i could experience both gilneas and andhoral wars. i can even lose these battle for all i care. i enjoyed darkshore, damn if that was good.
i only want to mantain the fucking rp. blizz retcon of an entire race after 15 years of player investiment its the scummest move they could conceive.
if they "cant" develop other forsaken questline (i doubt, everytime they try these are so good) then go tbc/pandaria/wod route and dont write anything. but dont fuck with players rp, thats the baseline for every gm (like blizz is).
i mean, they want stuck the boring superhero fantasy? good, the big story would be a shitshow, but damn, continue to write the little gems that the forsaken quests were. im not asking anything more (ok yes, even to let me skip all druid stuff that blizz need to throw to us every single time)

cant be helped? dude, there are prompt for race and class (even if there are funny outcomes like "hi honest and proud rogue"). damn even completely custom lines for when you have played some specific segment like legion class questline. but they cant add a prompt for living/unliving? my ass....
@VladlTutushkin
exactly what stopped a tauren to act as an hippie? no druid canonically was responsible of anything sylvanas did (they were send in silithus), there was even the traitor questline since d1 for any honorful horde
and punching ball? what? im not deleting your character. the fact that i was a sociopath deathstalker that plagued all azeroth didnt changed in any way your rp.
dude you dont even know what rping is....

[VladlTutushkin]

i dont want to bend the game. if i have to be raided every expansion from alliance because muuuh torture, i will welcome, i will love that. cata forsaken was the pinnacle where i could experience both gilneas and andhoral wars. i can even lose these battle for all i care. i enjoyed darkshore, damn if that was good.
i only want to mantain the fucking rp. blizz retcon of an entire race after 15 years of player investiment its the scummest move they could conceive.
if they "cant" develop other forsaken questline (i doubt, everytime they try these are so good) then go tbc/pandaria/wod route and dont write anything. but dont fuck with players rp, thats the baseline for every gm (like blizz is).
i mean, they want stuck the boring superhero fantasy? good, the big story would be a shitshow, but damn, continue to write the little gems that the forsaken quests were. im not asking anything more (ok yes, even to let me skip all druid stuff that blizz need to throw to us every single time)

cant be helped? dude, there are prompt for race and class (even if there are funny outcomes like "hi honest and proud rogue"). damn even completely custom lines for when you have played some specific segment like legion class questline. but they cant add a prompt for living/unliving? my ass....
@VladlTutushkin
exactly what stopped a tauren to act as an hippie? no druid canonically was responsible of anything sylvanas did (they were send in silithus), there was even the traitor questline since d1 for any honorful horde
and punching ball? what? im not deleting your character. the fact that i was a sociopath deathstalker that plagued all azeroth didnt changed in any way your rp.
dude you dont even know what rping is....

You ignoring the problem entirely it seems. Yes YOU personally cant do anything about other character. Oh and btw, neither your character was "deleted" when you gt your edge-supply cut. But Alliance was cucked, beaten bloody and denied any meaningful vengeance on the horde. Let me make it COMPLETELY simple so you understand (hopefully) - "YOU (as if, the horde, the horde story) HIT ME BAD. ME NO HIT YOU BACK BECAUSE PLOT CONVENIENCE. FORGIVE YOU LATER. ME FEEL BAD BECAUSE OF THAT. NIGHT ELVES AND ALLIANCE BECOME CUCKS. NO GOOD PLAYER EXPERIENCE."
Now you understand? And yes, making one side a total cackling villain often leads to that. Being repeatedly bullied and then forgiving your tormentors is just disgusting. Being a "hero" means to be HEROIC, not pathetic.
P.S.
Forsaken are "mortal". They are undead but they can be killed and then their souls depart so they are indeed mortal. Being immortal means being unable to die, which is not true for forsaken who can be killed.

[Powerogue]

If the night elves have to rescue Horde scum, you have to rescue Jaina, tit for tat. We're still scraping blight off our trees.

[omeomorfismo]

You ignoring the problem entirely it seems. Yes YOU personally cant do anything about other character. Oh and btw, neither your character was "deleted" when you gt your edge-supply cut. But Alliance was cucked, beaten bloody and denied any meaningful vengeance on the horde. Let me make it COMPLETELY simple so you understand (hopefully) - "YOU (as if, the horde, the horde story) HIT ME BAD. ME NO HIT YOU BACK BECAUSE PLOT CONVENIENCE. FORGIVE YOU LATER. ME FEEL BAD BECAUSE OF THAT. NIGHT ELVES AND ALLIANCE BECOME CUCKS. NO GOOD PLAYER EXPERIENCE."
Now you understand? And yes, making one side a total cackling villain often leads to that. Being repeatedly bullied and then forgiving your tormentors is just disgusting. Being a "hero" means to be HEROIC, not pathetic.
P.S.
Forsaken are "mortal". They are undead but they can be killed and then their souls depart so they are indeed mortal. Being immortal means being unable to die, which is not true for forsaken who can be killed.

exactly, what of my speech should in any way stop an alliance retaliation? tell me.
im not the cause of blizzard incompetence, i would vastly preferred an horde/ally raid like in zuldazar instead of eternal palace/nyalotha. with maybe real loss for both faction. thats WARcraft, forgiviness shouldnt belong in first place, in the contrary, revenge should be the fucking engine for the storytelling of this game.

PS
i never write about mortal, but living
learn to read, maybe that could help you to understand what rping is and to not insult other people trying to call them sadomasochist

[Aresk]

There's a lot to unpack in this thread. First off, I understand how you feel having to do a quest that seems to make no sense. I felt very much that way playing through the War of Thorns. "Azerite is special and SI:7 is attacking goblin miners. Let's go kill Malfurion, who has no involvement in this!" I spent that questline wondering why I was doing any of this, but that's just the way the game is. I personally would rather make quests available to more people than fewer. My tauren will happily help Jaina because Jaina helped the tauren. My mag'har will point and laugh at her because she'll know that she only walks in Oribos because of him.

Individual characters can have their own feelings about Jaina, but from a more overarching perspective, Jaina stood beside the Horde rebels to confront Sylvanas. If they were willing to work with her then, I see no reason they wouldn't now, given that she hasn't done anything antagonistic toward the Horde between then and now. For Sylvanas loyalists, this entire expansion makes no sense.

On the topics of Jaina's actions, I don't begrudge Zandalari their resentment for Jaina leading the attack, though it was after the Horde led not one but two assaults against Kul Tiras using Zandalar as a staging ground. I think that's enough to justify an attempt to rout that staging ground. In terms of Rastakhan's death, Jaina wasn't even in the room; she was outside exchanging distant looks with Nathanos; Genn, Shaw, and the Alliance adventurers are the ones who killed him. I don't think those change how individual Zandalari may feel about Jaina, but I could also see this information tempering some Horde characters' feelings as well.

With respect to Dalaran, I think Jaina's actions were extreme, though she was apparently beyond punishment. Varian threatened to imprison her for treason for going behind his back twice with respect to the Horde (quizzically once for supporting them in helping the tauren overthrow Magatha's coup and then once for assaulting their colleagues in the Sun Reavers). She pointed out he had no authority to do such. The Council of Six sought no punishment, which to me seems telling that she acted within the bounds of their rules. Given that they prevented her from using Dalaran resources to attack the Horde after Theramore and considering they overruled her later when they opted to work with the Horde again, it seems that they would have stepped in during the Purge or at least levied punishment against Jaina had they felt her actions were unwarranted. Vol'jin himself said he held no blame against Jaina for what happened in the Purge, and considering he was Warchieft at the time he sent that missive, it's as close to a pardon as one can get in Warcraft. While she never explicitly apologized for the Purge of Dalaran, I feel like that is included in the "blood on our hands" line during the cinematic overlooking Thunder Bluff after Baine's rescue from Sylvanas, and I get the sense there that she feels regret, at the very least.

As far as one Alliance character deserving to be in hell, I would say for me that's Magni (assuming Arthas, Kael'thas, and Garithos are no longer counted as Alliance). He let the dwarves literally get away with murder throughout Kalimdor from Classic until he was mercifully removed from the story in Cata, only to come back later.

And Baine and Thrall both are basicly Alliance members, you cant really say that about Jaina.

Yeah. Baine and Thrall were never accused of treason by the High King of the Alliance, whereas Jaina was. She was also convicted of treason by Kul Tiras. She's done way more for the Horde than some--if not most--Horde leaders.

genns punishment for stormheim was literaly nothing, despite the fact it was technicaly war crime (atacking in time of truce), and against direct order from his king...
sure he had reason, but so did bombing theramore or atacking teldrasil, so i guess those are fine too?

This is pretty off topic, but where was it said that Genn was acting against direct order from his king? In the Alliance questline, Rogers tells you the "official" story was that they were going to help with the artifact hunt but there was a second goal of monitoring the Horde's activities and attacking if it was warranted. It was Rogers and Genn's call as to whether the attack was warranted, and they said it was. I don't think there's a situation where they wouldn't make that call against a Forsaken military target, given Genn and Rogers history, but it seems like Anduin should have been aware of that when giving them the task.

[Soon-TM]

If the night elves have to rescue Horde scum, you have to rescue Jaina, tit for tat. We're still scraping blight off our trees.

I'd very much prefer if none of them ever took place. I mean, Alliance rescuing Thrall and Baine is understandable, after all they are highly useful assets, especially the cow. But Hordies rescuing TeH dAuGHtEr oF TeH SEas? !@#$ it.

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revenge should be the fucking engine for the storytelling of this game.

But Danuser/Golden wants all of us to hold hands together and sing kumbaya, and follow Anduin like little Light-brainwashed drones in his upcoming galactic adventures.

[huth]

They have Malfurion for all their leadership needs and they will be fine with that. Taking vengeance against the horde and sylvanas will serve a purpose of preventing event like Teldrassil burning happening again, by showing the price of the wanton slaughter to them, horde races have limited capacity for learning after all but they do understand simple stimulus - pain, loss, punishment or reward. You know, Pavlovian things.

Oh, yes, jumping into that deathrift without any idea what's awaiting you on the other side and mindlessly rampaging through the realm of death sure is going to teach them. Or, for that matter, using a ritual which mostly resulted in her slowly dying.

[Lolites]

This is pretty off topic, but where was it said that Genn was acting against direct order from his king? In the Alliance questline, Rogers tells you the "official" story was that they were going to help with the artifact hunt but there was a second goal of monitoring the Horde's activities and attacking if it was warranted. It was Rogers and Genn's call as to whether the attack was warranted, and they said it was. I don't think there's a situation where they wouldn't make that call against a Forsaken military target, given Genn and Rogers history, but it seems like Anduin should have been aware of that when giving them the task.

well pretty much they say not to attack unles the situation deems it necesary and literaly with the same breath say "i think it will be" or something like that so yes, it is against orders as they attacked without any reason whatsoever... (someone always argues that they had reason bcs of what sylva did to eyir but that happened AFTER that, and alliance had no knowledge of that plan before so...)

and sure, its anduins stupidity to put genn in lead of such mission, however that makes no difference, genn acted against direct order and commited war crime by attacking ally in time of truce without any provocation whatsoever... and its not even mentioned anywhere later, like it never happened, Jaina AT LEAST get mildly scolded for dalaran, genn got no punishment and is still in high position in alliance depsite being war criminal...

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Yeah. Baine and Thrall were never accused of treason by the High King of the Alliance, whereas Jaina was. She was also convicted of treason by Kul Tiras. She's done way more for the Horde than some--if not most--Horde leaders.

she alsoe done more AGAINST horde than most alliance leaders, like purge of dalaran or trying to level orgrimmar (i know, she didnt in the end bcs she was persuaded by kalec and thrall)

[VladlTutushkin]

Oh, yes, jumping into that deathrift without any idea what's awaiting you on the other side and mindlessly rampaging through the realm of death sure is going to teach them. Or, for that matter, using a ritual which mostly resulted in her slowly dying.

Sometimes you have to go ham or go home. Also, first part - kill sylvanas. Second part - kill so many horde scumdogs that they will learn a lesson. Easy as pie.

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well pretty much they say not to attack unles the situation deems it necesary and literaly with the same breath say "i think it will be" or something like that so yes, it is against orders as they attacked without any reason whatsoever... (someone always argues that they had reason bcs of what sylva did to eyir but that happened AFTER that, and alliance had no knowledge of that plan before so...)

and sure, its anduins stupidity to put genn in lead of such mission, however that makes no difference, genn acted against direct order and commited war crime by attacking ally in time of truce without any provocation whatsoever... and its not even mentioned anywhere later, like it never happened, Jaina AT LEAST get mildly scolded for dalaran, genn got no punishment and is still in high position in alliance depsite being war criminal...

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she alsoe done more AGAINST horde than most alliance leaders, like purge of dalaran or trying to level orgrimmar (i know, she didnt in the end bcs she was persuaded by kalec and thrall)

"(i know, she didnt in the end bcs she was persuaded by kalec and thrall)" - thats more then any horde leader did. You know, coming to a certain point and saying "Hmmm... No, this is crazy, too far. We have to stop at some point." Nooo, they always go to the max and then cry a bit about how bad they feel that they had to slaughter all those people.

[Aresk]

well pretty much they say not to attack unles the situation deems it necesary and literaly with the same breath say "i think it will be" or something like that so yes, it is against orders as they attacked without any reason whatsoever... (someone always argues that they had reason bcs of what sylva did to eyir but that happened AFTER that, and alliance had no knowledge of that plan before so...)

and sure, its anduins stupidity to put genn in lead of such mission, however that makes no difference, genn acted against direct order and commited war crime by attacking ally in time of truce without any provocation whatsoever... and its not even mentioned anywhere later, like it never happened, Jaina AT LEAST get mildly scolded for dalaran, genn got no punishment and is still in high position in alliance depsite being war criminal...

Oh, I don't think Eyir is any excuse. I think the Horde is perfectly reasonable for protesting the attack. But as you pointed out, the parameters they were given gave them the leeway to seek out a conflict. I think the Alliance should be held accountable, but I think the blame should be laid at Anduin's feet, which is exactly where Sylvanas places it.

she alsoe done more AGAINST horde than most alliance leaders, like purge of dalaran or trying to level orgrimmar (i know, she didnt in the end bcs she was persuaded by kalec and thrall)

Yeah, and Baine has done more against the Alliance than Cairne, but he's still called an Alliance lackey while Cairne is a great Horde hero, because Baine has also helped the Alliance more than Cairne has. Granted, Baine has never done anything nearly as severe as the Purge of Dalaran. But Jaina has been instrumental in three ceasefires between Horde and Alliance (Stonetalon in WC3, Isle of Thunder in MoP, and Nazjatar in BfA), and she was instrumental in helping save Thunder Bluff whereas no Horde leader has ever helped protect an Alliance capital to my recollection (though the PC helped with Exodar and twice with Stormwind).

[Martymark]

If the night elves have to rescue Horde scum, you have to rescue Jaina, tit for tat. We're still scraping blight off our trees.

2 stupids don't = a smart. It's just twice as stupid.