Rescue Jaina from Torghast??

[Combatbutler]

Just that the titans did not like the way the afterlife was doing things or were working against order they made Oribos and tried to get order into this realm does not mean that it is a good thing what they did to the shadowlands and the jailer.

The Titans have pretty much nothing to do with Oribos and its mechanism

[bowlink]

The Jailer is older then Oribos what means the current state of the shadowlands is not the way it once was.
So you might call the Jailer the big bad guy of the universe but you might be actually totally wrong about it.

Just that the titans did not like the way the afterlife was doing things or were working against order they made Oribos and tried to get order into this realm does not mean that it is a good thing what they did to the shadowlands and the jailer.

oh please the Jailer passes the duck test without breaking a sweat. pretty sure the jailer is the Melkor to Sargeras's Sauron.

[schwank05]

I just got this damn Quest on my Forsaken, I want to get the Soul Ash, but want to let her Rot even more.

[TickTickTick]

The Jailer is older then Oribos what means the current state of the shadowlands is not the way it once was.
So you might call the Jailer the big bad guy of the universe but you might be actually totally wrong about it.

So what are you trying to say then? That I should have stabbed Jaina the moment I saw her after entering the Maw for the first time, and then kneel before the Jailer? Anyway, what you're saying might or might not be true, it's a pure speculation and it might as well just be Jailer/Sylvanas propaganda to excuse their doings.

You still didn't get my argument, which is the non-ordinary circumstances that we happened to be in. Basically anyone would think "holy shit, we need to get out of here. I hate that human mage, but we all need each other right now to survive and bring things back to normal, or we will literally cease to exists". Unless you're a sociopath that is, in which case you'd just refuse to to save her, making yourself an enemy of the Ebon Blade and looking wierd before the Oribos attendants, probably getting kicked out to who even knows. Hell, you wouldn't even jump into the Maw, because why trust a former human paladin and a former acting leader of Stormwind? Guess this one doesn't bother you at all?

I am so happy that Blizz didnt bother with any AvH hate and war arc in Shadowlands (even if it's for limited time). Alliance and Horde fighting in such a place would be so absurdly stupid and wrong that no words could describe it.

[huth]

Its not an "attempt". Its literally what it is. Want better example? Alliance High King - he is a figurehead, a unifying figure so to say, a leader of the donated resources and military units but NOT a Sovereign over all Alliances races. In theory. In practice? He is a solitary ruler of all Alliance Kingdoms and Nations and all their leaders pay homage and serve him. Same with the Blood Oath and Warchief - lots of "in theory".

Except when they don't since he has no way to actually enforce anything on them. Like the Night Elves in BfA. Practice actually speaks against your claim.

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The Jailer is older then Oribos what means the current state of the shadowlands is not the way it once was.

We have no idea if he does or does not predate Oribos. For that matter, we don't know if the Titans predate Oribos, though we have good reason to believe they've never been to the Shadowlands because they know jack squat about it.

[VladlTutushkin]

Except when they don't since he has no way to actually enforce anything on them. Like the Night Elves in BfA. Practice actually speaks against your claim.

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We have no idea if he does or does not predate Oribos. For that matter, we don't know if the Titans predate Oribos, though we have good reason to believe they've never been to the Shadowlands because they know jack squat about it.

BfA was almost the first time an Alliance race refused to follow the High King and Tyrande now framed as WRONG for wanting vengeance while Shandris is framed as right for being on Anduin’s side.

[huth]

BfA was almost the first time an Alliance race refused to follow the High King and Tyrande now framed as WRONG for wanting vengeance while Shandris is framed as right for being on Anduin’s side.

Yes, she is framed as wrong for wanting vengeance. Not for not following Anduin. Which, given that she completely abandoned her job for it, is perfectly reasonable. She's supposed to be the leader of the Night Elves, not their avatar of vengeance when they are in dire need of leadership.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yes, she is framed as wrong for wanting vengeance. Not for not following Anduin. Which, given that she completely abandoned her job for it, is perfectly reasonable. She's supposed to be the leader of the Night Elves, not their avatar of vengeance when they are in dire need of leadership.

They have Malfurion for all their leadership needs and they will be fine with that. Taking vengeance against the horde and sylvanas will serve a purpose of preventing event like Teldrassil burning happening again, by showing the price of the wanton slaughter to them, horde races have limited capacity for learning after all but they do understand simple stimulus - pain, loss, punishment or reward. You know, Pavlovian things.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Well they can easy make it so only Alliance players get Jaina out and Horde only get Thrall out.
It is not like we both need to save them all if it makes little to no sense storywise, and it would not even impact the story later on because the result would still be that both are out.

That's a good solution. WoW is often accused of being too white or too black with few grey areas in-between, and I think it is a fitting description for this situation. Either Teldrassil burns/Undercity is plagued, or we save a very important enemy leader from captivity and torture, all in the span of two expansions.

The horde wouldn't even have to attack the alliance, they would just have to pretend Jaina isn't there; and viceversa the alliance with Thrall, so the respective factions can go save them.

[Lolites]

I'm sorry that you're upset with Jaina for getting angry.. after you nuked her entire city. It's actually cannon now that Sunreavers knew about Garroshs plot to steal the Divine Bell and use is as a WMD as well, so most of the arguments complaining about Jaina trying to arrest them all are moot.

pretty sure the ethnic purge of civilians that was not punished is upseting, not her getting angry... and sorry, where is the cannon that SHOPKEEPERS in dalaran knew and had something to do with that shit? i somehow missed that

but ok they retconed it, its not like we WERE THERE and remember kiling/saving those civilians... i guess if they retcon teldrasil and give good reason why Sylva burned it alliance players will be so happy about her they vote her in to replace anduin...

[oplawlz]

Lore-wise only Alliance players get Jaina out right?

I mean we Horde players Orcs, Trolls and Blood Elves saving her from that place is pretty wierd.
Zandalari players that serve Talanji makes really 0 sense. And for Blood Elves you can also question them getting her out after her Dalaran bloodbath.
Forsaken lost their home and city large part was her doing, and Orcs trusted her with Theramore being neutral and they attacked again in Cata.

Maybe it is just me but as a Horde player if one Alliance character deserves hell its Jaina.

So far this whole expansion has just basically shit on horde players who aren't spineless leaf eaters.

[bowlink]

So far this whole expansion has just basically shit on horde players who aren't spineless leaf eaters.

Nuked Theramore, Blighted Gilneas, Hillbrad, and part of WPL, Burned people alive in a Giant tree, Nailed adults to buildings in a town that wasn't part of the alliance at that point.

if there was a faction that needed to be shit on its the Horde members who aren't spineless leaf eaters.

[Subrias]

Lore-wise only Alliance players get Jaina out right?

I mean we Horde players Orcs, Trolls and Blood Elves saving her from that place is pretty wierd.
Zandalari players that serve Talanji makes really 0 sense. And for Blood Elves you can also question them getting her out after her Dalaran bloodbath.
Forsaken lost their home and city large part was her doing, and Orcs trusted her with Theramore being neutral and they attacked again in Cata.

Maybe it is just me but as a Horde player if one Alliance character deserves hell its Jaina.

Actually.. if you read the book... talanji is trying to forgive because it is what is best for her people.

[mysticx]

I just got this damn Quest on my Forsaken, I want to get the Soul Ash, but want to let her Rot even more.

Look at it this way: The storyline of WoW hinges on the player characters doing stupid stuff all the time, we released Gul'Dan in order to escape from the iron Horde at the start of WoD (Setting up an expansion and a half of misery from him) FFS!

So just handwave it away as a none-too-bright adventurer doing none-too-bright things (As adventurers do, they're not very bright, you see. :P ), it's how i justified putting Thrall back together in Cataclysm, the aforementioned freeing Gul'Dan in WoD, and a host of other things i knew would turn out badly.

[omeomorfismo]

In Vanilla they were pushing warcraft 3 Horde that was about moving on from bloodlust and world conquering and beginning a new life and a new Horde.

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Well, your RP is your RP, dosent have to come at expense of everybody else because you need suckers to punch. Sorry, dont pay 15 bucks per month to be your personal stress relief. Play single player games or pay a hooker who likes hardcore BDSM if you want to blow off steam that way.

and in wow they add forsaken to the horde (that even in w3 they werent absolutely like thrall's horde), so?

expense? forsaken ever stopped to let the alliance to be boring paladins paragon of goodness? the nelfs happy tree friends? it hurt you that not everyone like your human light boy? next is to cut maghars? the blood elves werent enough?
until your fantasy is be a literal next level mary sue loved by even the enemies what the forsaken characterization remove from warcraft? really, killing and torturing fucking abstract npcs doesnt limit yours rps in any single way.
and kek about bdsm, grow up dude...

The Horde started WoW as Thrall's Horde which is most definately not an evil organisation. So no, you weren't sold this 16 years ago.

I know you want to believe this, because you play Forsaken, but it was always established that the Forsaken are only part of this Horde because they lied about their actions and the Cows swallowed it. Like how they sold the lie that the RAS is working on a cure for undeath while they did the opposite. When the truth was halve-revealed during the Siege of the Undercity, Thrall was disgusted enough to station Kor'kron there to keep them in line. Of course it had no effect, because Sylvanas is much more intelligent and sneaky then Thrall, so she easily managed to trick the Kor'kron and continue her villain plans.

The point remains that when the Horde realized what the Forsaken were capable of they only barely avoided being kicked out and only because Sylvanas spread the lie that she did not know about the blight experiments. Which was only necessary because the Horde was not an evil organisation.

I will not deny that this has shifted quite a bit in the years since. Mostly because people like you demand to be able to be the villain, no matter how little sense it makes.

The entire plot of World of Warcraft revolves around the player character being a hero, a champion that fights against evil beings, hence why they were against Garrosh and would have been against Sylvanas, if the Evul-Horde players had not cried and demanded the Loyalist plot. This is a simple fact.

Your idea of being a sick sociopath, as you put it in another thread, is simply not canon even for a Forsaken and thus does not serve as an argument.

yes infact thats the problem, they sold to me a convenience alliance, not the peacnik coolaid they are trying to force on me now. they still tried to sell me that rp for all bfa (even with the trash that the baine quest was) where i could imprison eitrigg and parade with him. praise all that crying. damn these are only more rps...
and sociopath forsaken arent canon? lol, the hillsbrad quest (or any pre calia forsaken character/quest to be fair) is still there.

thats the difference btw. im not forcing human paladin n.65178543 to become a lovecratian horror, i absolutely dont care. let anduin be him all the time. its not my cup of tea and i cant care less (until he become a cancer even for the horde like now). but fuck let me play a story that blizzard wrote for 16 years (lesser to be fair, tons of time where the forsaken were completely MIA). dont force me to save for the 2° or 3° time that fucking tyrande thats the epithome of what all my race hate (light&nature). dont force me in fucking incoherent stories like argus where my character is suppoused to burn from light but i have to start a fucking light engine????
stop calling me a living for the love of the jailer!

[Raisei]

The Jailer is older then Oribos what means the current state of the shadowlands is not the way it once was.
So you might call the Jailer the big bad guy of the universe but you might be actually totally wrong about it.

For sure. People that maintain an endless tower for torturing soul for eternity tend to usually be really nice!

[Varodoc]

For sure. People that maintain an endless tower for torturing soul for eternity tend to usually be really nice!

He thinks Jaina is responsible for the Blight Bombing of Lordaeron, what's the point?

[Raisei]

and in wow they add forsaken to the horde (that even in w3 they werent absolutely like thrall's horde), so?

expense? forsaken ever stopped to let the alliance to be boring paladins paragon of goodness? the nelfs happy tree friends? it hurt you that not everyone like your human light boy? next is to cut maghars? the blood elves werent enough?
until your fantasy is be a literal next level mary sue loved by even the enemies what the forsaken characterization remove from warcraft? really, killing and torturing fucking abstract npcs doesnt limit yours rps in any single way.
and kek about bdsm, grow up dude...



yes infact thats the problem, they sold to me a convenience alliance, not the peacnik coolaid they are trying to force on me now. they still tried to sell me that rp for all bfa (even with the trash that the baine quest was) where i could imprison eitrigg and parade with him. praise all that crying. damn these are only more rps...
and sociopath forsaken arent canon? lol, the hillsbrad quest (or any pre calia forsaken character/quest to be fair) is still there.

thats the difference btw. im not forcing human paladin n.65178543 to become a lovecratian horror, i absolutely dont care. let anduin be him all the time. its not my cup of tea and i cant care less (until he become a cancer even for the horde like now). but fuck let me play a story that blizzard wrote for 16 years (lesser to be fair, tons of time where the forsaken were completely MIA). dont force me to save for the 2° or 3° time that fucking tyrande thats the epithome of what all my race hate (light&nature). dont force me in fucking incoherent stories like argus where my character is suppoused to burn from light but i have to start a fucking light engine????
stop calling me a living for the love of the jailer!

I think the problem is that you are expecting this MMO to have as intricate a plot as a single-player RPG. There is simply no way for an MMO to adept it's main plot to the whims of every player. Not even SWTOR manages that and it is as close to a single player RPG as an MMO can get.

This game assumes and plays out with your character being a decent person, yes there are outliers with the quests in Hillsbard and now with the Loyalists, but you still ARE the Champion of Azeroth. A hero. That is how the story will treat you, because that is how the majority of people want to be treated in a game.

And btw. My Death Knight is also constantly adressed as "mortal" by everyone in the SLs. It's weird, but simply can't be helped.

You can make your headcannon as you wish, but the game will not bend to it. If you want to control the outcome of a game you need to play one that is not played by millions of others as well. I suggest Divinity 2.

[VladlTutushkin]

and in wow they add forsaken to the horde (that even in w3 they werent absolutely like thrall's horde), so?

expense? forsaken ever stopped to let the alliance to be boring paladins paragon of goodness? the nelfs happy tree friends? it hurt you that not everyone like your human light boy? next is to cut maghars? the blood elves werent enough?
until your fantasy is be a literal next level mary sue loved by even the enemies what the forsaken characterization remove from warcraft? really, killing and torturing fucking abstract npcs doesnt limit yours rps in any single way.
and kek about bdsm, grow up dude...



yes infact thats the problem, they sold to me a convenience alliance, not the peacnik coolaid they are trying to force on me now. they still tried to sell me that rp for all bfa (even with the trash that the baine quest was) where i could imprison eitrigg and parade with him. praise all that crying. damn these are only more rps...
and sociopath forsaken arent canon? lol, the hillsbrad quest (or any pre calia forsaken character/quest to be fair) is still there.

thats the difference btw. im not forcing human paladin n.65178543 to become a lovecratian horror, i absolutely dont care. let anduin be him all the time. its not my cup of tea and i cant care less (until he become a cancer even for the horde like now). but fuck let me play a story that blizzard wrote for 16 years (lesser to be fair, tons of time where the forsaken were completely MIA). dont force me to save for the 2° or 3° time that fucking tyrande thats the epithome of what all my race hate (light&nature). dont force me in fucking incoherent stories like argus where my character is suppoused to burn from light but i have to start a fucking light engine????
stop calling me a living for the love of the jailer!

It seems i have to explain to you what i meant because you are unable to understand. Its not your personal edgy fantasy and RP that is a problem. But rather the way it comes at expense of every other race - certain horde races want to have honor or maybe just NOT be a band of genocidal maniacs? Too bad! Have to chug along with forsaken and their evil-barbie "queen" and then take the hit for that too.
Alliance dosent want to play a victim/punching bag for your entertainment? Too bad! Someone has to be a victim for the villain and since there always will be "non factional story" where two factions have to set aside their differences and all that we HAVE to forgive and forget which results in enormous cuckoldry which is neither heroic nor good.
Now do you understand? Being an edgy villain is fine, to each their own but in order for you to be this way everybody else has to either be a goon or a victim.

[Martymark]

Just last expansion, Jaina was the main villian for Horde players, actively trying to kill them repeatedly. She was a raid boss that killed a "goodguy" Horde leader, defeated the Horde player, laughed at them and ran away.

Making the Horde player rescue her is almost as stupid as forcing them to use Dalaran as their capital city after the Purge.