The Two Americas Divided Over Democracy

[Doctor Amadeus]

Trump is no more Fascist than George W. Bush was, or really any American president in that respect. I mean we keep forgetting I guess about the Iraq War, drone striking civilians including American civilians, detention without trial for decades, domestic spying and prosecution of any journalist that isn't a stenographer for Langley Falls.

George W Bush didn't use hostile foreign governments to campaign against his political rivals and he also didn't actively work against his own administration to aide the same hostile government.

Trump is a Fascist that believes his own bullshit he sells to all his believers.

[Felya]

"Other examples" you could've mentioned were the Panama Canal Zone and the Philippines. Wait, no, we gave those back.

US abruptly leaving Syria, lead to Turkey bombing the shit out of Kurds. 300000 displaced people heading... somewhere... It’s interesting how far right action, directly contributes to conspiracy theories to double down on their action.

Furthermore, it’s more than a little strange to complain about Obama, who hasn’t been in office for almost 4 years and Biden, who isn’t in office for over a month. Yet, be silent as US has been made into the military arm of Saudi and UAE elites... Biden is likely to reverse a lot of the “expansion” Trump was doing. Making this argument double strange, is that it was part of a diatribe that excused Bush being re-elected, as public not knowing better... is this the same issue?

On the 11th, less than a week after Biden is called as the winner:
Trump administration informs Congress of intent to sell $23B in arms to UAE
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/11/polit...ion/index.html

US election: Gulf Arab leaders face new reality after Biden victory
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54904874

Now it looks set to flip back again, with Mr Biden recently telling the Council on Foreign Relations that he would "end US support for the disastrous Saudi-led war in Yemen and order a reassessment of our relationship with Saudi Arabia".
Pressure from an incoming Biden administration on the Saudis and their Yemeni allies to settle this conflict is now likely to increase.

The whole deal, he implied, was part of the flawed legacy of an Obama administration that had not appreciated the extent of the danger posed by the Islamic Republic.
The Saudis and some of their Gulf allies quietly applauded when in January this year the US carried out a drone strike in Iraq that assassinated Gen Qasem Soleimani, the commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards' overseas operations arm, the Quds Force.
Now they worry whether the incoming White House team will be tempted to make a bargain with Tehran that undercuts their own interests.

The boycott began shortly after President Trump's much-trumpeted visit to Riyadh in 2017, and the quartet clearly thought they had his backing.
In fact, Mr Trump initially and briefly supported it publicly until it was explained to him that Qatar was also a US ally and that Al-Udaid was rather important to the US defence department.
President-elect Biden's administration is likely to push for this inter-Gulf rift to be healed. It has not been in the interest of the US, and it certainly has not been in the interests of the Gulf Arab states themselves.

He argued that US strategic interests and business deals overrode any concerns about imprisoned women's rights campaigners; the alleged abuse of foreign labourers in Qatar; or the fact that in October 2018 Saudi government security men flew in official planes to Istanbul to carry out a pre-planned operation to silence Saudi Arabia's most vocal critic, Jamal Khashoggi, disposing of his body which has never been found to this day.

Is Trump’s plan to dig us out of debt and create manufacturing jobs, by becoming weapon dealers for the Middle East... really less expansionist than Biden’s tax increase on those making over 400k? Do we really want to continue to funnel weapons that are bombing Yemen?

[Elegiac]

The one in which we are two hundred years after the fact and the shitty rhetorical arguments have not changed.



The people still pushing the "economic anxiety" argument clearly traveled back in time to ghostwrite this article.

[Edge-]

You're splitting hairs when people are dying. I never made the claim of the US pursuing Manifest Destiny, but we have ben acting very Empire-ish for over half a centry and it is bleeding the middle class dry.

Again, no we haven't. That's not what an empire is. An empire requires taking territory, think - "The sun never sets on the British Empire." when they had territories they occupied and controlled spanning the globe.

The US does not have that, and military actions/sanctions in other countries like Afghanistan or Libya or Venezuela are not aimed at creating any sort of empire or taking any sort of territory.

Nobody is "splitting hairs", we're correcting because you're talking about taking territories and empires when the discussion is about US foreign policy and military involvement. The argument over whether the costs are justified is a separate topic, and one I think is worth having. But it's also not really the cause of "bleeding the middle class dry", that's a broken ass tax system that favors corporations and the wealthy while placing a disproportionate burden on the middle class. Which has been happening regardless of military involvement abroad.

[Felya]

You're splitting hairs when people are dying. I never made the claim of the US pursuing Manifest Destiny, but we have ben acting very Empire-ish for over half a centry and it is bleeding the middle class dry.

Who do you think is working to build the US military complex? What other manufacturing is left in US?

The problem, the public only cares about damaging foreign policy, after the culprits are out of office. You think the support Bush had for the wars, was different than Trump?

Bush Derangement Syndrome
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bush_Derangement_Syndrome

[jonnysensible]

Again, no we haven't. That's not what an empire is. An empire requires taking territory, think - "The sun never sets on the British Empire." when they had territories they occupied and controlled spanning the globe.

'because even god doesnt trust the british in the dark'

The US does not have that, and military actions/sanctions in other countries like Afghanistan or Libya or Venezuela are not aimed at creating any sort of empire or taking any sort of territory.

this is a bit naive?

[Edge-]

this is a bit naive?

What territories did we annex?

[Felya]

I suppose American Imperialism is just a made up term. I don't care what you want to call it.

That’s circular logic... but...

“Propaganda in the broadest sense is the technique of influencing human action by the manipulation of representations. These representations may take spoken, written, pictorial or musical form."

The US has been excreting it's dominance over smaller country for it's own wealth and to spread it's influence. This has resulting in extremist violence, violent coups, military actions, war, police actions, and more. Just because the US isn't planting a flag is a mute point when the results are the same. Millions of dead people, and a often times an oppressive regime.

How are results the same? When we left Syria, what happened to the Kurds? What you are doing, is the same as Trump arguing that Obama bill the cages for children. This muddies the waters and permits these actions to escalate, since they get compared to far more benign action, implying the same results.

When you argue that shooting your self in the head, is the same as shooting your self in the foot. You are not just exemplifying shooting your self in the foot, as more severe than it is, to get a more emotional response... you are also downplaying shooting your self in the head, as less severe, to tamper that emotional response.

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Well based off voting records it's bi-partisan, but I know none of you would ever admit or can even see that.

That irks back to what I said a second ago... is 120+ democrats voting ‘no’ to the war, make the war bipartisan, with two republicans doing the same? Does it count that a lot of the military action and expansion, are points DNC compromises on, when GOP is asked to compromise on social programs?

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To add to the general discussion:

President Truman announces the Truman Doctrine
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...e-is-announced

In a dramatic speech to a joint session of Congress, President Harry S. Truman asks for U.S. assistance for Greece and Turkey to forestall communist domination of the two nations. Historians have often cited Truman’s address, which came to be known as the Truman Doctrine, as the official declaration of the Cold War.

On March 12, 1947, Truman appeared before a joint session of Congress to make his case. The world, he declared, faced a choice in the years to come. Nations could adopt a way of life “based upon the will of the majority” and governments that provided “guarantees of individual liberty” or they could face a way of life “based upon the will of a minority forcibly imposed upon the majority.” This latter regime, he indicated, relied upon “terror and oppression.” “The foreign policy and the national security of this country,” he claimed, were involved in the situations confronting Greece and Turkey. Greece, he argued, was “threatened by the terrorist activities of several thousand armed men, led by communists.” It was incumbent upon the United States to support Greece so that it could “become a self-supporting and self-respecting democracy.” The “freedom-loving” people of Turkey also needed U.S. aid, which was “necessary for the maintenance of its national integrity.” The president declared that “it must be the policy of the United States to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures.” Truman requested $400 million in assistance for the two nations. Congress approved his request two months later.

That sounds like someone...

[Felya]

this is a bit naive?

I think the distinction is us wanting resources that are inhibited by these groups, more so than occupation. Bush’s ‘Mission accomplished’ bullshit came after Exxon began drilling, not after we installed a new government. That’s the facade... that’s the justification after the fact... that’s when we become good Samaritans...

[Felya]

How many voted yes? What was leaderships position? Was it Saddam is a bad guy, so we need to kill him and create a power vacuum? Because that's what happened. |

To note, 81 Democratic Congressman voted for it, and 29 Democratic Senators. It wouldn't have passed without Democrats voting "YES" for it. Democrats like Biden, Clinton, and others you all seem to defend adnauseam. Yet you only want to blame the GOP?

Also don't add anything. Stay on topic for once.

You are confirming what I said... More voted against the war, than for the war. While unlike Bush, you seem to ignore that the majority of democrats knew and risked political damage to vote against it. Political damage, that carried the unAmerican moniker all the way through the Trump presidency. Obama being part of the Muslim brotherhood to Trump’s and QAnon associating democrats with terrorists, is all directly tied to the blow back that started with democrats opposing the war. It’s what built Fox News...

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Yet when we didn't get involved with ukraine the EU was crying to the U.S since they don't have a spine.

Ukraine gave up their entire nuclear Arsenal, which at the time was one of the largest in the word, for no reason other than to plea with US for support in 2002... Bush had more important things to do... But... as I said... Ukraine is white, so there are no scary brown people to kill... there is no oil, so there is no Exxon to make rich... it’s a lose/lose situation... should have kept the nukes...

[Edge-]

How many voted yes? What was leaderships position? Was it Saddam is a bad guy, so we need to kill him and create a power vacuum? Because that's what happened. |

To note, 81 Democratic Congressman voted for it, and 29 Democratic Senators. It wouldn't have passed without Democrats voting "YES" for it. Democrats like Biden, Clinton, and others you all seem to defend adnauseam. Yet you only want to blame the GOP?

Also don't add anything. Stay on topic for once.

Except that there was majority support for the war at the time, and that support ticked up as it began -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...vasion_of_Iraq

That extended through 2005 (increasing following the start of the war), with popular support beginning to crumble in 2006 around the time of "Mission Accomplished".

Reps and Senators vote their conscious, but also their constituency. For better or worse, America wanted that war.

You're desire to boil everything down to a simple binary really makes it difficult to discuss what are complex topics like the war in Iraq. Sure, you can sum it up with, "It was awful, unjust, wasteful, deadly, and predicated on a lie.", but the history isn't quite so clear-cut and easily summed up in a catchy sentence like that.

[Felya]

Except that there was majority support for the war at the time, and that support ticked up as it began -

He knows... He used it to defend Bush beating a democrat anti war candidate... Kerry’s campaign was just “forgetful”...

Half of Americans still thought the Iraq war was just at the time. This was well before the total cost it had been tallied or the CIA torture program. Not all too surprising at the time, and I was in the mlitary and still voting against him. Despite all the military hurah BS, but I also wasn't shocked he won, Kerry campaign was pretty forgetful.

[Milchshake]

Nancy Pelosi voted against the Iraq War yet... the Bros still call her a cunt, bitch, or corporate shill.

Which shows that positions on socialism (really its anti-establishment), are more about their white male grievances, than any policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...f_the_Iraq_War

Look, that position was dominated by Dems. But these "life long democrat" edgelord boys are gonna pout because their mom forced them to eat broccoli once.

[Felya]

What I don't want is the US meddling in foreign governments or elections, much like people in the US don't want it happening here. Crazy Idea I know.

People who want the meddling, are the same ones calling interference in US elections, RussiaGhazi, while claiming covid is a democrat hoax to help China.

[Felya]

Nancy Pelosi voted against the Iraq War yet...

Democrats opposing the war is what built the Fox News empire. The war is what created Trump and Fox News, as they were screaming for retribution for Muslims dancing on rooftops and claiming Obama was a Manchurian candidate. Calling any place that served French fries, unAmerican, unless it’s Freedom Fries.

If the Supreme Court overturns gay marriage, these people will blame democrats for not supporting it in the 90s.

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The Democrats are just as culpable for the Iraq War as the GOP.

This is literally what I have been responding to, this entire time... wtf? lol

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So do you feel the need to defend the Democrats no matter what? Because anytime any critic is made you spout out how it's wrong.

Already covered, click below to go to full post:

How are results the same?

[Shalcker]

Ukraine gave up their entire nuclear Arsenal, which at the time was one of the largest in the word, for no reason other than to plea with US for support in 2002...

For "no other reasons" that they were going to lose those nukes either way and US would cheer Russia reclaiming them if Ukraine would refuse to cooperate, thus they consented to symbolic gesture (that was never ratified by anyone).

[Felya]

For "no other reasons" that they were going to lose those nukes either way and US would cheer Russia reclaiming them if Ukraine would refuse to cooperate, thus they consented to symbolic gesture (that was never ratified by anyone).

What way were they goin to lose nukes? Are you suggesting US or Russian would have invaded Ukraine? Lunacy...

[Milchshake]

Democrats opposing the war is what built the Fox News empire. The war is what created Trump and Fox News, as they were screaming for retribution for Muslims dancing on rooftops and claiming Obama was a Manchurian candidate. Calling any place that served French fries, unAmerican, unless it’s Freedom Fries.

If the Supreme Court overturns gay marriage, these people will blame democrats for not supporting it in the 90s.

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This is literally what I have been responding to, this entire time... wtf? lol

Ya these guys are not arguing in good faith.

Sorry, but no Dem or Progressive would say that urban voters deserve less representation than rural voters. These posters are just neoconfederates that are anxious about healthcare. They would still undermine universal coverage if it meant giving up any of their political priviledges.

Rural/Urban Divide...

Seattle sez your fucking welcome when rural Idaho has to airlift their covid patients here. All we ask, is be more tolerant of queerfolk and immigrants.

[Felya]

There you go conflating two different positons, because you are unable to distinguish betweent he two.

I quoted you... your issue is the receipts... not me... especially when you don’t read what I post, just respond with assumptions.

I respond the way I do, because... unlike you... I read what I respond to.

[Orby]

That chart proves that the further from the ocean you are the more bonkers you are :P

Damn inlanders *shakes fist*