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  1. #1

    What would make you second guess the Jailer's imprisonment

    Kyrestia the Firstborne calls him "that monster"
    others say that he was in defiance of the first ones so the eternal ones bound together and imprisoned him in the Maw, forever to be its Jailer.
    Primus says he betrayed them.

    Eventually we (i assume) will get to some point in this expansion where it will be revealed why he was imprisoned.

    At which point what would make you second guess him imprisonment? Isnt it curious that the default mode of operation for Oribos is to funnel everything into the Maw? I mean if not for the Arbiter everything gets sent to hell. Why though? Seems like bad design to just automatically send everyone to hell if no Arbiter present or perhaps...is it the normal and another system was put into place to override it?

    Imagine such that the Jailer was the initial ruler of the underworld as assigned by the First Ones. He did the Arbiters job but not so methodically as the 4 realms, Bastion, Ardenweald, Revendreth and Maldraxxus. But instead, the Maw as it is right now was the major landmass but divided into categories or layers w.e. However when the First Ones told him to overhaul that system placing him as the ruler of hell, while creating other realms for his brothers and sisters [the eternal ones] to govern those areas he got pissed and lashed out.

    As a result his land was shattered and in its broken pieces. And Zovaal jailed within it, forced to serve a purpose, much like Argus was carved out of his planet and forced to regenerate the burning legion.

    Would this make you side with him?

    Or would you prefer the older version which is:
    Kyrians (must be, thanks Devos! you idiot!) non judgemental in their ferrying of souls but for that they must let go of their memories otherwise they cant carry it out fairly.
    Maldraxxus is singular in its purpose, to defend the shadowlands from attack
    Ardenweald works to send back souls that are greater than the average joe, employing normal souls carrying out this task
    Revendreth to offer souls a second chance, who upon succeeding either join them or go to one of the previous 3 realms.
    Or finally, fall into the maw having failed their chance at redemption.
    Last edited by Minikin; 2020-12-15 at 03:11 PM.

  2. #2
    I'm pretty sure it's implied that the Jailer did some magic shenanigan so that all the souls flow directly into the Maw in the absence of the Arbiter.

    Normally, if the Arbiter broke, all the souls would just get stuck at the entrance of Oribos.

    Jailer and his minions (maybe Denathrius and Helya) did some magic trick to redirect the flow of anima straight to the Maw.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  3. #3
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Not sure the directionality of the current flow of souls to the Maw is a "default" in any way for Oribos - it may well be due to whatever energy effected the Arbiter and essentially shut her down, she could be trapped into some kind of internal loop where she judges every soul as irredeemable (analogous to being trapped in nightmare of some kind). As for second-guessing the Jailer's imprisonment, I would do so with proof that his imprisonment was due to some conspiracy or external agent influencing the outcome.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  4. #4
    If he'd stopp being a complete ass to innocent souls i might actually start listening to him.
    Threatening to kill Azeroth isn't exactly helping his case either.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Considering he's trying to destroy the soul of the world my characters' friends and family live. I'd say there's no way to join him
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Would this make you side with him?
    He's literally coming for the soul of our planet so there's nothing that would make the player join him.
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  7. #7
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I would argue second-guessing his imprisonment and siding with him are two entirely different things. The Jailer has conclusively proven himself to be evil and an eminent threat, that much is definite; but if his imprisonment was initially unjust that is still a mitigating circumstance.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Would this make you side with him?
    No. Whatever unfairness happened to him, it doesn't warrant the choices he's made. Same reason why I don't believe a single bit about what Sylvanas is saying. If you are capable to do what these both did, with no remorse and regret, even feeling pride about it, all in full conspiracy the likes of "I can't tell you, just do my bidding and all will be well, trust me. Or die", then you are a bad person, and there's no reason to belive a bad person would be working towards a greater good. It's just an excuse for a bad person to continue doing what they are doing, all in order to get more power.

    Besides, nothing that we know about how the Shadowlands function makes me think it's a great conspiracy against the Jailer. The rules set make sense (yes, even Kyrian), and all the bad that's happened recently is BECAUSE of the Jailer.

    The only thing that comes to my mind is that the Maw was the original afterlife, the only one, with Zovval being the ruler, then the First Ones entering the realm of Death (meaning they do not originate from there), creating other afterlives and the Eternal Ones, and ordering them to lock Zovval within the Maw because they decided the way the mortal cycle ends is just bad. IDK what the great betrayal could be, maybe just the fact that Zovval had a chance to make the afterlife good, but decided not to, still wouldn't make sense... Honestly most of what we know so far doesn't make sense, mostly because Blizzard isn't willing to share any crucial info yet. Just another layer of bad writing, which is not to tell a good story, but to drag it out as long as possible for the finish to be a huge "gotcha" moment with dramatic music in the background. Scheme already way overused within Warcraft universe.

  9. #9
    Everyone seems to be power hungry and soul thirsty in Shadowlands. They are just butthurt the Jailer is getting the food they wanted to hoard for themselves.

  10. #10
    I think the Jailer is the original Arbiter/ruler of the Shadowlands so souls are naturally directed towards him. He may be the physical embodiment of the Shadowlands or Death as an aspect.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's implied that the Jailer did some magic shenanigan so that all the souls flow directly into the Maw in the absence of the Arbiter.

    Normally, if the Arbiter broke, all the souls would just get stuck at the entrance of Oribos.

    Jailer and his minions (maybe Denathrius and Helya) did some magic trick to redirect the flow of anima straight to the Maw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not sure the directionality of the current flow of souls to the Maw is a "default" in any way for Oribos - it may well be due to whatever energy effected the Arbiter and essentially shut her down, she could be trapped into some kind of internal loop where she judges every soul as irredeemable (analogous to being trapped in nightmare of some kind). As for second-guessing the Jailer's imprisonment, I would do so with proof that his imprisonment was due to some conspiracy or external agent influencing the outcome.
    I think Kah Delen said it could be interference. But beyond that it does seem like, she stops working and everything goes to the maw.
    i tried to look but couldnt find any proof to the point that if she goes dormat then every soul waits in Oribos on standby.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrspidey View Post
    If he'd stopp being a complete ass to innocent souls i might actually start listening to him.
    Threatening to kill Azeroth isn't exactly helping his case either.
    What if it was by the first one's design that the maw was broken and remade for torment and the jailer is forced to focus on that alone even though he could do fulfil other purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Considering he's trying to destroy the soul of the world my characters' friends and family live. I'd say there's no way to join him
    i could be wrong here, but has he himself claimed that? i know others have said that on his behalf but is that his actual aim?
    the primus and sylvanas believe he is focused on breaking the shadowlands and reforging it. I could have missed this though.

  12. #12
    I think it's going to be similar to what we have with Sylvanas, only on larger scale. First ones probably created the purpose, and maybe the eternal ones (?) to rule over the shadowlands. And after a time, Jailer was not happy in the system that others created for them, and saw that all realms had flaws. (I mean, all covenants seem to have some internal issues and flaws) So he wanted to break the system, but others took it as betrayal, so they imprisoned him. I'm thinking it's going to be something like this.

    Honestly, for me, if the Jailer was really created by the eternal ones, basically to serve a purpose that he had no control over, and he wanted to just abandon his task to , I don't know, have a life, a wife and kids, be a gardener instead, etc , but others didnt let him and some conflict arose from this where the others felt that he betrayed them, and in the end they imprisoned him, I'd think about it. I could even envision something more dramatic, where the jailer had a different realm/covenant, and they just decided to not play along by the rules and did something bad to achieve this, and in the end their whole covenant was destroyed, and some of them got imprisoned.

  13. #13
    He works with the void lords

    why? because Blizzard overarching storytelling is very simple

  14. #14
    I agree on the theory of the Maw being the default state of the afterlives, they way oribos seems to be set up is that it functionally works as a roadblock of sorts between the mortal life and the Maw, allowing someone like the Arbiter to send souls somewhere else.

    My guess is pretty similar though. Zovaal was the original arbiter or something similar, but decided to commit omnicide to prevent people having to die at all, and instead live forever in the Shadowlands. The other leaders recognized that this would destroy they universe and decided to imprison Zovaal so he couldn't go through with his plan.
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  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post

    i could be wrong here, but has he himself claimed that? i know others have said that on his behalf but is that his actual aim?
    the primus and sylvanas believe he is focused on breaking the shadowlands and reforging it. I could have missed this though.
    In the intro scenario of the Maw he yells "Death comes for the Soul of your world" when you are trying to activate the keystone to Oribos
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sador View Post
    (I mean, all covenants seem to have some internal issues and flaws)
    I mean, that's literally only because of the whole anima drought that the Jailer orchestrated, and other plots that he devised.

    The issues in Maldraxxus originate from the Jailer abducting the Primus and manipulating the House of Rituals and Constructs into joining him, sparking a massive civil war in the wake of the Primus' disappearance.

    The issues in Ardenweald originate from the anima drought caused by the Jailer and Denathrius. The invading drust most likely serve the Jailer too.

    The issues in Revendreth, like Ardenweald, originate from the anima drought, which forced the venthyr to take drastic measures to survive. Also, Denathrius is a terrible dictator and he is in league with, you guessed it, the Jailer. Denathrius probably wouldn't be causing so much shit if he didn't have guaranteed protection by the Jailer.

    I'll concede that the issues in Bastion tormenting Devos and Uther would most likely exist even if the Jailer was not a threat. I can see why Devos would feel that the Path of the Archon is too strict. However, the realm is devastated by the invasion of the House of Rituals and Constructs, acting under the Jailer's command, and the Jailer spreading his powers beyond the Maw (via the Lich King) is precisely why Devos and Uther decide to rebel against the Archon's passive stance.

    In short, everything was fine before the Jailer ruined everything.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  17. #17
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    No. Whatever unfairness happened to him, it doesn't warrant the choices he's made. Same reason why I don't believe a single bit about what Sylvanas is saying. If you are capable to do what these both did, with no remorse and regret, even feeling pride about it, all in full conspiracy the likes of "I can't tell you, just do my bidding and all will be well, trust me. Or die", then you are a bad person, and there's no reason to belive a bad person would be working towards a greater good. It's just an excuse for a bad person to continue doing what they are doing, all in order to get more power.

    Besides, nothing that we know about how the Shadowlands function makes me think it's a great conspiracy against the Jailer. The rules set make sense (yes, even Kyrian), and all the bad that's happened recently is BECAUSE of the Jailer.

    The only thing that comes to my mind is that the Maw was the original afterlife, the only one, with Zovval being the ruler, then the First Ones entering the realm of Death (meaning they do not originate from there), creating other afterlives and the Eternal Ones, and ordering them to lock Zovval within the Maw because they decided the way the mortal cycle ends is just bad. IDK what the great betrayal could be, maybe just the fact that Zovval had a chance to make the afterlife good, but decided not to, still wouldn't make sense... Honestly most of what we know so far doesn't make sense, mostly because Blizzard isn't willing to share any crucial info yet. Just another layer of bad writing, which is not to tell a good story, but to drag it out as long as possible for the finish to be a huge "gotcha" moment with dramatic music in the background. Scheme already way overused within Warcraft universe.
    Its always been that way though and even a few franchises do the same thing, its not a problem, its a you problem.


    I think the Jailer is the original Arbiter/ruler of the Shadowlands so souls are naturally directed towards him. He may be the physical embodiment of the Shadowlands or Death as an aspect.


    He works with the void lords

    why? because Blizzard overarching storytelling is very simple
    It is simple but N'zoth wouldn't be doing the whole "I can save you from what is to come." if the Jailer was inline with the Void Lords. It makes no sense.
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  18. #18
    My take on it is as follows:

    Originally there was no Arbiter, but Zovaal was in that role of judge as the Shadowlands' ruler, hence why they talk about him reclaiming what is his and the unoccupied spot in the Arbiter's chamber while the Arbiter herself just floats off to the side. Seeing all the other powers expanding their influence he sought to expand Death's and, finding the other First Ones unreceptive, worked covertly through his agents (per the Dreadlord document) to engineer things in that direction, this stems from Denathrius' comments that the Jailer's goals are to The others found out and sealed him, said sealing possibly involving the help of an outside power, likely the Light, given the N'zoth whisper about the Light being the enemy of all and Denathrius' haggling with it along with the Jailer needing Anduin to bust out. Hence the betrayal that Devos talks about. Knowing that they still needed an arbiter, the Archon made the Arbiter, hence why Kyrian and Oribos anima looks the same, and gave this new construct the same job Zovaal used to have while interring him in Torghast. Depending on how sympathetic they want to make him how much bad things he actually did before the others turned on him and whether he just wanted to expand Death's influence or destroy all other powers can be played with, ditto how much he was already building up his forces and pushing into their turf.

    His goal would be way too arch and mutually exclusive with people wanting to continue to exist for him to be sided with, but this kind of thing would make him a rational actor, though one a lot more bitter now than he was before he was usurped.

    Though @Sondrelk and others who brought up the idea that the Maw was the original afterlife have an interesting take on things too.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Its always been that way though and even a few franchises do the same thing, its not a problem, its a you problem.
    There's quite a lot of "you" folk then. Or maybe bringing things down to "if you don't like it it's your problem" is in a bad taste and shouldn't be done at all.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    In the intro scenario of the Maw he yells "Death comes for the Soul of your world" when you are trying to activate the keystone to Oribos
    ah sheet you are right.

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