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  1. #21
    The issue with the data represented is that it represents all specs and not just healers, which is what the thread is talking about. MW specifically is, and has not been in a great place for a long time. As it goes atm, its not worth bringing a MW to mythic raids, and hardly to mythic+.

    Its so bad that i swapped to Brewmaster because MW is hardly playable atm. The amount of things you have to do to put out reasonable HPS is insane, and youll definitely go OOM trying to do what a priest or shaman, even druid can do with 15% of the mana you used.

    MW isnt meant to be a melee spec, if it was it would have better class identity to support that with its cooldowns. Of which only really ChiJi fits, and it requires constant contact with the target to be effective. This cant always happen in split fights in Nathria and others that require grouping, or the healers to be far away from the boss.

    At the least, a solid explanation from blizzard about class identity, or any sort of buffs in general to MW alone would be a heck of an accomplishment. Because the class, nearly in its entirety, has been ignored this expansion and I love my monk. Its also counter intuitive on blizzards part, to balance things like covenants to be relatively even, but not specs.

    This doesn't mean that other specs also do not need attention either. Im not taking away from that fact this thread was started to address mistweavers though not other specs.
    Last edited by Dizzyswiftz; 2020-12-22 at 07:08 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzyswiftz View Post
    The issue with the data represented is that it represents all specs and not just healers, which is what the thread is talking about. MW specifically is, and has not been in a great place for a long time. As it goes atm, its not worth bringing a MW to mythic raids, and hardly to mythic+.

    Its so bad that i swapped to Brewmaster because MW is hardly playable atm. The amount of things you have to do to put out reasonable HPS is insane, and youll definitely go OOM trying to do what a priest or shaman, even druid can do with 15% of the mana you used.

    MW isnt meant to be a melee spec, if it was it would have better class identity to support that with its cooldowns. Of which only really ChiJi fits, and it requires constant contact with the target to be effective. This cant always happen in split fights in Nathria and others that require grouping, or the healers to be far away from the boss.

    At the least, a solid explanation from blizzard about class identity, or any sort of buffs in general to MW alone would be a heck of an accomplishment. Because the class, nearly in its entirety, has been ignored this expansion and I love my monk. Its also counter intuitive on blizzards part, to balance things like covenants to be relatively even, but not specs.

    This doesn't mean that other specs also do not need attention either. Im not taking away from that fact this thread was started to address mistweavers though not other specs.
    The other funny part is that shammies, the op fotm class, not only have their own mana regen tool, they regen mana for every healer in the raid!

    So your choice is:

    Monk: mediocre throughput, bad cds, needs innervates to be viable
    Shammy: better throughput, good cds, gives extra mana to your other healers

    Gee, tough call.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ruwshtyb View Post
    What a double standard here. You are talking about balancing but you are seemed to be totally fine healers are still way better in general than DPS. How is that not a balancing issue? Why did healers deserve a better spot than DPS? Considering many statistics shows that over 50% of all monks are WWs.

    That is not a conspiracy theory. If it is a conspiracy theory, the result won't be so consistent. Under a capitalists society, capitalists will always try to maximize their profit. All its behavior is to maximize profit. In fact, if you try to explain the behavior of a company without talking about the economic reasons, you are very wrong. It is science. All the statistics and economic theory showed that.

    It is the same result since MoP and rarely changing. MW is always the lowest tier of healer and it never changes. In fact, I even predicted MW was going to be horrible this expansion in the last patch and I did make a thread on some forum. I did not even bother reading any changes in SL and I knew it was going to be horrible. BTW, I can tell you MW will continue to be horrible in 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, maybe 9.4, 10.0, 10.1.... 100000000.1. That is the economy.
    It is more important that tank and healer balance is solid than dps. There are 14 dps spots in a raid. You don't need all 14 to have amazing raid utility, so it's less important that they be super balanced on that front. However, there are only 4 healers and their utility is often critical to the raid's success. So it's a lot harder to justify bringing a non-optimal healer class than it is to bring a non-optimal dps class. Warcraft logs bears this out. So far, there are 122 shaman parses on Mythic Inerva Darkvein... and 1 mistweaver. In contrast, for dps, every class has some representation: the lowest is Shammy with 29 parses so far.

    The cost of bringing a monk over a shammy healer is very high when every additional spirit link trivializes another mechanic, and you can plan to sacrifice a character and not have it cost a brez, or just use ancestral protection similar to spirit link. The cost of bringing a shammy dps over say a hunter is like 500 dps - an advantage that is most likely overwhelmed by the quality of the player and/or gear available for many teams making that choice.

    This problem with Shaman cooldowns being op in tough content has gone back several expansions. Back in WoD, they made the crazy decision to make many healer staple spells like wild growth be "dumb" heals... i.e. just pick a random target instead of low health targets (no joke, wild growth wasn't even guaranteed to hit the person you cast it on, which was insane) - which meant that spirit link was even more powerful than it is now, because it fixed the problem with spells like wild growth healing the wrong people.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2020-12-30 at 07:58 AM.

  3. #23
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    I've healed every spec and this is definitely the hardest I've found mana in all my years. I guess I best start trying out fistweave.

  4. #24
    The problem extends so much further than just mana issues.

    If you're fistweaving properly, you're not using your mastery. 2 Renewing mists, maybe some Vivifies, Envelopings during Chi'ji - if you take it. The stat can be considered DEAD.

    Half of the Conduits are centered around mastery:
    1. Jade Bond, need to use mastery procing abilities to get value - you're almost never using them.
    2. Resplendent Mist, more mastery healing is great... if you were consistently using mastery proc'ing abilities - you're not.
    3. Rising Sun Revival, literally the only conduit that is useful for fistweaving... and it's trash.
    4. Nourishing Chi, It's ok for saving a tank, but still trash overall.


    Conclusion:
    1. Fix traditional style healing's mana cost

    2. Get rid of ALL mana talents - they do not work in Mythic+ environment which is considered to be the "bulk" of the game now. Balance accordingly.

    3. Provide talent in this row for Crane Stance - makes Jab, Blackout Kick, RSK, and SCK all proc mastery heal on lowest HP friendly (solve fistweaving mastery problem). Invoke Chi'Ji - current.

    4. Provide talent in this row for Serpent Stance - Target of Channeled Soothing Mist gains 10% damage reduction, 20% chance to replicate hots to low health friendly (solve poor external CD for tank; solve issue with needing to stop channel to heal others). Invoke Yu'lon - current.

    5. Provide talent in this row for Ox Stance - While active targets with enveloping mist gain the ability to stagger 20% damage taken as a magic effect (you can dispel it as a pseudo-purifying brew) - Invoke Niuzaho* spell, puts stagger on everyone in range (Solve poor raid CD when dmg reduction CD is needed over healing); Revival can clear all staggers.

    6. Remove Chi'Ji, add Pool of Mists, When Enveloping mist expires 100% of total healing split to 2 Allies within 25 yards (50% each) - Procs Mastery, cannot crit. (create choice and synergy across talent rows)
    Last edited by Angrie; 2020-12-30 at 05:46 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It is more important that tank and healer balance is solid than dps. There are 14 dps spots in a raid. You don't need all 14 to have amazing raid utility, so it's less important that they be super balanced on that front. However, there are only 4 healers and their utility is often critical to the raid's success. So it's a lot harder to justify bringing a non-optimal healer class than it is to bring a non-optimal dps class. Warcraft logs bears this out. So far, there are 122 shaman parses on Mythic Inerva Darkvein... and 1 mistweaver. In contrast, for dps, every class has some representation: the lowest is Shammy with 29 parses so far.

    The cost of bringing a monk over a shammy healer is very high when every additional spirit link trivializes another mechanic, and you can plan to sacrifice a character and not have it cost a brez, or just use ancestral protection similar to spirit link. The cost of bringing a shammy dps over say a hunter is like 500 dps - an advantage that is most likely overwhelmed by the quality of the player and/or gear available for many teams making that choice.

    This problem with Shaman cooldowns being op in tough content has gone back several expansions. Back in WoD, they made the crazy decision to make many healer staple spells like wild growth be "dumb" heals... i.e. just pick a random target instead of low health targets (no joke, wild growth wasn't even guaranteed to hit the person you cast it on, which was insane) - which meant that spirit link was even more powerful than it is now, because it fixed the problem with spells like wild growth healing the wrong people.
    20 man raid itself has already introduced issues. So what blizzard ends up doing is to nerf MW to make other healers happy since buffing MW = lose profit. What you have seen which is lacking utility is the result, no the reason. Buffing Monk = Lose profit.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ruwshtyb View Post
    20 man raid itself has already introduced issues. So what blizzard ends up doing is to nerf MW to make other healers happy since buffing MW = lose profit. What you have seen which is lacking utility is the result, no the reason. Buffing Monk = Lose profit.
    You keep saying “buff mw = lose profit” without explaining yourself. Are we supposed to guess why you think this?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    You keep saying “buff mw = lose profit” without explaining yourself. Are we supposed to guess why you think this?
    how many mws are there? Monk has fewer than half of the populations of other classes, only only a tiny of its portion goes to MWs. You are a minority compared to the total pop of hpal + restore sm + disc priests + holy priests + resto druid. You are a tiny minority and supposed to be weak. Buff MW = making ALL of your healers unhappy = they will quit the game = Lose profit for the Blizzard.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ruwshtyb View Post
    how many mws are there? Monk has fewer than half of the populations of other classes, only only a tiny of its portion goes to MWs. You are a minority compared to the total pop of hpal + restore sm + disc priests + holy priests + resto druid. You are a tiny minority and supposed to be weak. Buff MW = making ALL of your healers unhappy = they will quit the game = Lose profit for the Blizzard.
    What a completely asinine statement. People don't quit the game because a weak class gets buffed. People quit because their class is trash. It is absolutely foolish to put forth the reasoning that you keep a class in the dumpster because other stronger classes will get so jealous of buffs to make it playable that they'll quit the game. Especially after an entire expanion (BFA) where MW were one of the top healers.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by WhirlwindTV View Post
    What a completely asinine statement. People don't quit the game because a weak class gets buffed. People quit because their class is trash. It is absolutely foolish to put forth the reasoning that you keep a class in the dumpster because other stronger classes will get so jealous of buffs to make it playable that they'll quit the game. Especially after an entire expanion (BFA) where MW were one of the top healers.
    I agree that it’s crazy to think that they intend for mistweaver to be bad, but I also think they are hesitant to give mistweaver much utility because they know how unpopular it is.

    That means that they don’t necessarily intend to make it terrible but they just avoid giving it anything that could be very good - and the net result can end up like now, where it’s godawful.

    We need like a 15% reduction in mana costs, a massive buff to revival, and a 50% buff to our dps to make us competitive with lower tier healers like Druid.

  10. #30
    Whats funny is that our mw never goes under 80% mana and tops the charts at 5k average hps beating our shaman. Oh well guess its a l2play issue.

    And never asks for innervate.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Whats funny is that our mw never goes under 80% mana and tops the charts at 5k average hps beating our shaman. Oh well guess its a l2play issue.

    And never asks for innervate.
    Honestly, I dont believe you unless you guys are doing content way below your level (so fights are over super fast) and he is fistweaving (most of us are talking about the Upwelling healing-style here).
    But please provide some logs, I'd love to learn how to heal as most of my HC kills where I've recorded around 5-6k hps, I've been totally dry at the end of the fight, with mana pot used and almost always an Innervate included.
    Last edited by Dawon; 2021-01-04 at 06:49 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawon View Post
    Honestly, I dont believe you unless you guys are doing content way below your level (so fights are over super fast) and he is fistweaving (most of us are talking about the Upwelling healing-style here).
    But please provide some logs, I'd love to learn how to heal as most of my HC kills where I've recorded around 5-6k hps, I've been totally dry at the end of the fight, with mana pot used and almost always an Innervate included.
    I second this! I'd love to learn a better style that puts out good numbers.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinderox View Post
    Mw only needs a small buff like -5% mana healing spells or something like that. Anyways i swaped to fistweaver last raid and there are no more mana problem and 1/2º on healing hc raiding.
    Didn't they completely remove mana regen from MW besides the talent? So the mana regen is quite minimal now.

    BTT: Honestly MW is in a pretty bad spot right now, both in PVE and PVP. Not only do we need some significant buffs to our mana pools and armor (so that rogues can't kill us through a stun), but the entire spec needs pretty much a redesign at this point as well. In many ways, MW feels very similar to holy paladins, but it lacks synergy and is worse in every way than them (except HoT).
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2021-01-22 at 04:47 PM.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    It seems like blizzard may not change or fix the mana issues of monks.

    Their answer was to make fist weaving almost mandatory in order to be efficient.

    Personally I like the style with Atotm legendary but it is not for everyone and it should not be something forced on players.

    I hope they change their mind and fix the issue.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    Their answer was to make fist weaving almost mandatory in order to be efficient.

    Personally I like the style with Atotm legendary but it is not for everyone and it should not be something forced on players.
    yep, fistweaving with atotm is very solid and stable on mana. im quite happy with it.

    that mastery does next to nothing (outside of chi-ji) feels kinda weird. im not too upset about it tho.. im really bored with specs that are balanced to the ilvl>all point.

  16. #36
    If you want to raid then unless you getting feed Innervate then you going to struggling playing upwelling. Our numbers are good the class is not week it is just to relient on other classes i.e druid to perform to max potential.

    Blizzard are forcing us into Fistweaing for raiding we can do decent numbers with it especially when paired with RJW but using RJW will bring you back into mana issues no way near as bad a upwelling does but you will notice a difference then straight up standard fistweaving build.

    For M+ we are decent just requires excellent knowledge of the pulls/encounters so we can ramp at the correct time and not waste GCD getting ramp ready while big damage going out no different then a Hpal or Disc priest really so I have no issues with this playstyle but they need to buff our damage to make that of a disc priest/Hpala if they going pair our playstyle with them. Of course this kind of style does not lend well to pugs which is what 90% of the playerbase does for M+

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    It seems like blizzard may not change or fix the mana issues of monks.

    Their answer was to make fist weaving almost mandatory in order to be efficient.

    Personally I like the style with Atotm legendary but it is not for everyone and it should not be something forced on players.

    I hope they change their mind and fix the issue.
    It's quite funny when you think about it. They made fistweaving mandatory, while at the same time they've heavily nerfed its damage output and removed the mana regen component outside of one talent.

  18. #38
    Hi,

    I bump this thread for additionnal informations.

    If you doesn't want/need to dps, you can just run with ToM Legendary and optimize the Grounded Breath conduit. Especialy for thoses who runs with Crit/Versa (or Versa/Crit) gear, idk for thoses having Mastery since I have +0 Mastery on my gear (225 avg, PvP Geared Versa/Crit)

    - You know that Vivify also heals mates under RM for about 75-80% of initial heal
    - ToM increase Vivify heals (so Vivify heals to mates under RM...)
    - Grounded Breath had 30% chance to refund Vivify cost when casted on yourself
    - Then you cast Vivify on yourself to heal mates under RM, wait for a RM bounce if theres not huge dmg, else just cast asap on most injured mate without grounded breath.


    On M+13 or over you just got refound for about 5-6 mana potions, like 35k mana, big packs at 12-14k HPS and never OOM.

    Have run double a lot of M+ and rbg with this method (+ Heroic Sire) and i was never OOM at all.

    The bad thing is you can get over 50% overheal in logs , but who care, it's always better to do 50% overheal on yourself (because you priorize casting Vivify on yourself for grounded breath, even if you had 100% HP) and having mana to spend than getting oom.

    In addition, if you optimize this, you never need to look at your HP, since you cast on yourself as primary target. More life more mana more loot, happy ending.
    Last edited by TRCKSTVR; 2021-02-06 at 06:30 AM.

  19. #39
    Grounding Breath got a 1 min internal CD so you only get one proc per trashpack usually. So I really dont get how you can sustain 12-14k hps while not going oom.
    Last edited by Dawon; 2021-02-07 at 09:36 AM.

  20. #40
    Blizzard seems to ignore tank and healer balance adjustments right now for whatever reason.

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