MW Monk Mana Issues, Remain untouched....again

[ruwshtyb]

It is more important that tank and healer balance is solid than dps. There are 14 dps spots in a raid. You don't need all 14 to have amazing raid utility, so it's less important that they be super balanced on that front. However, there are only 4 healers and their utility is often critical to the raid's success. So it's a lot harder to justify bringing a non-optimal healer class than it is to bring a non-optimal dps class. Warcraft logs bears this out. So far, there are 122 shaman parses on Mythic Inerva Darkvein... and 1 mistweaver. In contrast, for dps, every class has some representation: the lowest is Shammy with 29 parses so far.

The cost of bringing a monk over a shammy healer is very high when every additional spirit link trivializes another mechanic, and you can plan to sacrifice a character and not have it cost a brez, or just use ancestral protection similar to spirit link. The cost of bringing a shammy dps over say a hunter is like 500 dps - an advantage that is most likely overwhelmed by the quality of the player and/or gear available for many teams making that choice.

This problem with Shaman cooldowns being op in tough content has gone back several expansions. Back in WoD, they made the crazy decision to make many healer staple spells like wild growth be "dumb" heals... i.e. just pick a random target instead of low health targets (no joke, wild growth wasn't even guaranteed to hit the person you cast it on, which was insane) - which meant that spirit link was even more powerful than it is now, because it fixed the problem with spells like wild growth healing the wrong people.

20 man raid itself has already introduced issues. So what blizzard ends up doing is to nerf MW to make other healers happy since buffing MW = lose profit. What you have seen which is lacking utility is the result, no the reason. Buffing Monk = Lose profit.

[ruwshtyb]

You keep saying “buff mw = lose profit” without explaining yourself. Are we supposed to guess why you think this?

how many mws are there? Monk has fewer than half of the populations of other classes, only only a tiny of its portion goes to MWs. You are a minority compared to the total pop of hpal + restore sm + disc priests + holy priests + resto druid. You are a tiny minority and supposed to be weak. Buff MW = making ALL of your healers unhappy = they will quit the game = Lose profit for the Blizzard.

[WhirlwindTV]

how many mws are there? Monk has fewer than half of the populations of other classes, only only a tiny of its portion goes to MWs. You are a minority compared to the total pop of hpal + restore sm + disc priests + holy priests + resto druid. You are a tiny minority and supposed to be weak. Buff MW = making ALL of your healers unhappy = they will quit the game = Lose profit for the Blizzard.

What a completely asinine statement. People don't quit the game because a weak class gets buffed. People quit because their class is trash. It is absolutely foolish to put forth the reasoning that you keep a class in the dumpster because other stronger classes will get so jealous of buffs to make it playable that they'll quit the game. Especially after an entire expanion (BFA) where MW were one of the top healers.

[Utrrabbit]

Whats funny is that our mw never goes under 80% mana and tops the charts at 5k average hps beating our shaman. Oh well guess its a l2play issue.

And never asks for innervate.

[Dawon]

Whats funny is that our mw never goes under 80% mana and tops the charts at 5k average hps beating our shaman. Oh well guess its a l2play issue.

And never asks for innervate.

Honestly, I dont believe you unless you guys are doing content way below your level (so fights are over super fast) and he is fistweaving (most of us are talking about the Upwelling healing-style here).
But please provide some logs, I'd love to learn how to heal as most of my HC kills where I've recorded around 5-6k hps, I've been totally dry at the end of the fight, with mana pot used and almost always an Innervate included.

[MarkusFiligree]

Honestly, I dont believe you unless you guys are doing content way below your level (so fights are over super fast) and he is fistweaving (most of us are talking about the Upwelling healing-style here).
But please provide some logs, I'd love to learn how to heal as most of my HC kills where I've recorded around 5-6k hps, I've been totally dry at the end of the fight, with mana pot used and almost always an Innervate included.

I second this! I'd love to learn a better style that puts out good numbers.

[RobertMugabe]

Mw only needs a small buff like -5% mana healing spells or something like that. Anyways i swaped to fistweaver last raid and there are no more mana problem and 1/2º on healing hc raiding.

Didn't they completely remove mana regen from MW besides the talent? So the mana regen is quite minimal now.

BTT: Honestly MW is in a pretty bad spot right now, both in PVE and PVP. Not only do we need some significant buffs to our mana pools and armor (so that rogues can't kill us through a stun), but the entire spec needs pretty much a redesign at this point as well. In many ways, MW feels very similar to holy paladins, but it lacks synergy and is worse in every way than them (except HoT).

[TigTone]

It seems like blizzard may not change or fix the mana issues of monks.

Their answer was to make fist weaving almost mandatory in order to be efficient.

Personally I like the style with Atotm legendary but it is not for everyone and it should not be something forced on players.

I hope they change their mind and fix the issue.

[Phala]

Their answer was to make fist weaving almost mandatory in order to be efficient.

Personally I like the style with Atotm legendary but it is not for everyone and it should not be something forced on players.

yep, fistweaving with atotm is very solid and stable on mana. im quite happy with it.

that mastery does next to nothing (outside of chi-ji) feels kinda weird. im not too upset about it tho.. im really bored with specs that are balanced to the ilvl>all point.

[grippo]

If you want to raid then unless you getting feed Innervate then you going to struggling playing upwelling. Our numbers are good the class is not week it is just to relient on other classes i.e druid to perform to max potential.

Blizzard are forcing us into Fistweaing for raiding we can do decent numbers with it especially when paired with RJW but using RJW will bring you back into mana issues no way near as bad a upwelling does but you will notice a difference then straight up standard fistweaving build.

For M+ we are decent just requires excellent knowledge of the pulls/encounters so we can ramp at the correct time and not waste GCD getting ramp ready while big damage going out no different then a Hpal or Disc priest really so I have no issues with this playstyle but they need to buff our damage to make that of a disc priest/Hpala if they going pair our playstyle with them. Of course this kind of style does not lend well to pugs which is what 90% of the playerbase does for M+

[RobertMugabe]

It seems like blizzard may not change or fix the mana issues of monks.

Their answer was to make fist weaving almost mandatory in order to be efficient.

Personally I like the style with Atotm legendary but it is not for everyone and it should not be something forced on players.

I hope they change their mind and fix the issue.

It's quite funny when you think about it. They made fistweaving mandatory, while at the same time they've heavily nerfed its damage output and removed the mana regen component outside of one talent.

[Manageth]

Hi,

I bump this thread for additionnal informations.

If you doesn't want/need to dps, you can just run with ToM Legendary and optimize the Grounded Breath conduit. Especialy for thoses who runs with Crit/Versa (or Versa/Crit) gear, idk for thoses having Mastery since I have +0 Mastery on my gear (225 avg, PvP Geared Versa/Crit)

- You know that Vivify also heals mates under RM for about 75-80% of initial heal
- ToM increase Vivify heals (so Vivify heals to mates under RM...)
- Grounded Breath had 30% chance to refund Vivify cost when casted on yourself
- Then you cast Vivify on yourself to heal mates under RM, wait for a RM bounce if theres not huge dmg, else just cast asap on most injured mate without grounded breath.


On M+13 or over you just got refound for about 5-6 mana potions, like 35k mana, big packs at 12-14k HPS and never OOM.

Have run double a lot of M+ and rbg with this method (+ Heroic Sire) and i was never OOM at all.

The bad thing is you can get over 50% overheal in logs , but who care, it's always better to do 50% overheal on yourself (because you priorize casting Vivify on yourself for grounded breath, even if you had 100% HP) and having mana to spend than getting oom.

In addition, if you optimize this, you never need to look at your HP, since you cast on yourself as primary target. More life more mana more loot, happy ending.

[Dawon]

Grounding Breath got a 1 min internal CD so you only get one proc per trashpack usually. So I really dont get how you can sustain 12-14k hps while not going oom.

[mistmitpandas]

Blizzard seems to ignore tank and healer balance adjustments right now for whatever reason.

[Manageth]

Grounding Breath got a 1 min internal CD so you only get one proc per trashpack usually. So I really dont get how you can sustain 12-14k hps while not going oom.

Be geared.
1506 Intel
1217 Versatility (30.38%)
546 Crit (20.60%)
249 Haste (7.55%)
0 Mastery (33.60%)

[Dawon]

Be geared.
1506 Intel
1217 Versatility (30.38%)
546 Crit (20.60%)
249 Haste (7.55%)
0 Mastery (33.60%)

Granted I've had bad luck in loot so only 205 in ilev but not that far behind your stats. Still impressed about that 12+ sustain without going oom.

[Manageth]

I have 20 more ilvl, currently i am 225. Spells are so overpowered, doesn't need to cast that much as 205 ilvl. Mana pot is around 35k mana during a 12/13 keys, and same for Grounding Breath. The most i've seen w/ Grounding is 42k refound on an entire mythic dungeon.

[RobertMugabe]

There is some talk about how MW will see a major rework and buffs in 9.1, so I guess we will have to wait and see until then.

I am of course frustrated as any other MW player right now, however I do understand it that tuning MW NOW is just too late and makes no sense. Blizzard can only really allow themselves very early into a patch/expansion to tune a class and later on this becomes difficult, as players are are progressing through high end keys, raids and arena(!!).
Imagine people are pushing towards gladiator and then suddenly the meta changes, that would be extremely frustrating. Especially during MDI and AWC you can't really change the meta as it would really ruin the fun for everyone else.

I know it sucks for us right now, but that's how it is. If they don't however fix monks by 9.1 then I'll be legit pissed and change mains.

[Manageth]

There is some talk about how MW will see a major rework and buffs in 9.1, so I guess we will have to wait and see until then.

I am of course frustrated as any other MW player right now, however I do understand it that tuning MW NOW is just too late and makes no sense. Blizzard can only really allow themselves very early into a patch/expansion to tune a class and later on this becomes difficult, as players are are progressing through high end keys, raids and arena(!!).
Imagine people are pushing towards gladiator and then suddenly the meta changes, that would be extremely frustrating. Especially during MDI and AWC you can't really change the meta as it would really ruin the fun for everyone else.

I know it sucks for us right now, but that's how it is. If they don't however fix monks by 9.1 then I'll be legit pissed and change mains.

You can do PVE changes without impacting PVP since Warlords of Draenor.
The problem is MDI, I don't even know why Blizzard is running an official cup on public realm, they need to push a private realm and separate build with character copy like it is with PTR, and then run MDI in, so they can change public build without changing MDI tuning. They do that for the Overwatch League for exemple, if theres an update in live, the League isn't impacted until the next season.

But you're right, if there are any changes to be made to the mistweaver, it won't be for today or tomorrow. We don't really know if there will be any.

The Mistweaver is not catastrophic or unplayable either, the biggest problem he encounters is the pro-meta mentality of morons who refuse you in M ​​+ or RBG because you are not a druid, shaman, or dp. Even with 10+ ilvl then others.

But we must not let go, with the right peoples we can progress at our pace, there is currently no reason to switch to another class (and even less Windwalker)

[RobertMugabe]

You can do PVE changes without impacting PVP since Warlords of Draenor.
The problem is MDI, I don't even know why Blizzard is running an official cup on public realm, they need to push a private realm and separate build with character copy like it is with PTR, and then run MDI in, so they can change public build without changing MDI tuning. They do that for the Overwatch League for exemple, if theres an update in live, the League isn't impacted until the next season.

But you're right, if there are any changes to be made to the mistweaver, it won't be for today or tomorrow. We don't really know if there will be any.

The Mistweaver is not catastrophic or unplayable either, the biggest problem he encounters is the pro-meta mentality of morons who refuse you in M ​​+ or RBG because you are not a druid, shaman, or dp. Even with 10+ ilvl then others.

But we must not let go, with the right peoples we can progress at our pace, there is currently no reason to switch to another class (and even less Windwalker)

TBH as far as RBG/arena goes it would be enough if they'd just buff our mana, armor and let us use fort. brew while stunned (as many other classes can use their defensives like that, for example Barkskin... this would at least prevent us from being easy targets for rogues). Other than that we just don't have much to offer besides cocoon, but overall I'd say that would be enough for us to be competitive and become a solid non-regretttable choice. MW can be otherwise quite amazing at burst healing (if it weren't for that quick mana drain) and we can be the best FC healers and best healers that could quickly switch between flags on ressource maps.

I unfortunately had to give up my MW spot in my RBG team and switched to WW instead as we've progressed higher in ranking, but hopefully they'll go ahead with the buffs I am suggesting and according to Cdew (I believe) we might see some big buffs coming eventually.