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  1. #41
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Well, great, continue to fight amongst yourselves then and just watch as the Republicans laugh at you both.
    How are we fighthing amongst ourselves if our political believes are miles apart? I dont really think the GoP cares about how us anarchists/communists/socialists outside the US feel about liberalism, The biggest party here is the liberal conservative party. How are you supposed to work with people who will side with the conservatives anyway?

    But if it goes for the US... they picked a president that is even to the right of our liberal conservatives. I'm really not going to blame the US left for not liking him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Yeah, see...that's the problem

    Both sides of this divide are accusing the other of not being "the real left"

    "You don't see things exactly the same way I do...ALT-RIGHT!"
    One side is pro capitalist, the other side is anti-capitalist. Liberalism and communism and/or anarchism go as well together with liberalism as they do with conservatism or fascism.

    The far left is not even anything close to a centre-right idealogy like Liberalism. Liberals have been anti-communisr and anti-socialist since it became a thing. Does the red scare ring a bell?
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2020-12-23 at 08:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    But if it goes for the US... they picked a president that is even to the right of our liberal conservatives. I'm really not going to blame the US left for not liking him.
    They don't have to like him. They certainly don't have to trust him. They just have to realize that the alternative is worse and they should learn to negotiate better. This is what happens when you try to inject international political labels into US politics. In the US, Liberal means left-winger. Its pretty much a synonym for socialism and communism which are viewed as the same.

    Vast swathes of the American Working Class who you think are your allies absolutely despise Joe Biden. But they hate him not for the reasons you do, they hate him because he's a godless, baby-killing socialist who wants to take their money and give it to minorities.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    This is what happens when you try to inject international political labels into US politics. In the US, Liberal means left-winger. Its pretty much a synonym for socialism and communism which are viewed as the same.
    this isnt how anything works pls no

    Vast swathes of the American Working Class who you think are your allies absolutely despise Joe Biden.
    evidence? vast swathes of the AWC are non voters.
    But they hate him not for the reasons you do, they hate him because he's a godless, baby-killing socialist who wants to take their money and give it to minorities.
    you are talking about white people dont say american working class when you mean white people

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    They just have to realize that the alternative is worse and they should learn to negotiate better..
    I think one of the problem is that this is simply never true. Both rightwing party in the US are interchangable when it comes to economy in the end. A massive mistake people keep making and why someone like Trump can still have so much support is the faulty premise that social issues are what most people vote for and switching president actually has an effect on people daily lives. Truth is nothing will change. Drone strike will increase, like they did under obama and then under trump. Money will be funneled in the same places.

    The truth is that social issues are much easier to fix at proximity government level and not centralized government, not one as bloated as the US. No president will ever fix real issues. Like private jail industry, school funding based on the school area taxes, etc, actual stuff that has an effect on citizen daily lives. Shit like banning trans from the military, while aborant, wouldnt even drive 0.001% of the vote. It only has an effect on a precent of a precent of the population, so once on the voting boot, all these suposed bad stuff amount to next to nothing in the equation, unless you are that rare person. Nobody voted for biden, they voted against trump. Remove covid and even if i hate him, im confident trump would have easily won a non covid year. He lost due to one thing and one thing only. Losing white elderly votes in many areas due to covid. He increased his vote in every other thing, even minorities he directly insults. Thats how little social issues matter at the voting boot.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2020-12-23 at 10:53 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    this isnt how anything works pls no

    evidence? vast swathes of the AWC are non voters.

    you are talking about white people dont say american working class when you mean white people
    No that’s exactly how it works. Just because something has a text book definition doesn’t mean everyone will use it. I prefer not to use the term liberal for anything since you’re quite likely to find two people with opposite definitions.

    I used to think that until Trump found 6 million more racists to vote for him. Biden found an even getting greater number to get Trump out of office. They’re out there and they’re willing to vote under he right circumstances.

    Trumps base is still non-college educated white males. They’re still part of the working class. The working class is not some magical creature that always votes for in their financial self interest. If that was the case, the GOP would’ve been forced to change years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    I think one of the problem is that this is simply never true. Both rightwing party in the US are interchangable when it comes to economy in the end.
    No they’re really not. Pick any topic and the GOP will always be the worse party. The Dems might be cowardly fuckups but they don’t persistently do the wrong thing like the GOP does.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    No they’re really not. Pick any topic and the GOP will always be the worse party. The Dems might be cowardly fuckups but they don’t persistently do the wrong thing like the GOP does.
    Literally said nothing. Both are the same fiscally. They spend the money in the same places, vote on the same budgets. I already explained why social issues dont go beyond omg brown people taking my jewbs. Neither party do or even have the power to fix most of the real issues especially the president.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post

    Trumps base is still non-college educated white males. They’re still part of the working class. The working class is not some magical creature that always votes for in their financial self interest. If that was the case, the GOP would’ve been forced to change years ago.
    if i look at voting by income it seems to mostly be petty bourgeoisie who vote trump not working class who voted heavily for biden

    white non college education small business owners, trump gained with people earning over 100k a year.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    if i look at voting by income it seems to mostly be petty bourgeoisie who vote trump not working class who voted heavily for biden

    white non college education small business owners, trump gained with people earning over 100k a year.
    The working class as a whole was won by Biden. A vast swathe of them (ie 44%) voted for Trump. That's 24 million people making under $50k per year voted for Trump.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    Literally said nothing. Both are the same fiscally. They spend the money in the same places, vote on the same budgets. I already explained why social issues dont go beyond omg brown people taking my jewbs. Neither party do or even have the power to fix most of the real issues especially the president.
    Yet somehow only one party massively rams up the deficit to give tax cuts to people who don't need them. Reagan's tax cuts caused a recession, Bush's tax cuts did the same and Trump's were already causing problems.

    They're not the same. Yes, the federal budget is largely fixed but 10% of it is not and fucking around with it can make or break an economy.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Yet somehow only one party massively rams up the deficit to give tax cuts to people who don't need them. Reagan's tax cuts caused a recession, Bush's tax cuts did the same and Trump's were already causing problems.

    They're not the same. Yes, the federal budget is largely fixed but 10% of it is not and fucking around with it can make or break an economy.
    You have two parties of technological capital arranged in a fashion whereby important questions of basic political economy are off the table, creating an infinitely recurring tendency to channel all actually occurring politics into not just subcultural spectacle, which would be a bad enough trap, but a spectacle that masks a hyper-atomized, empty moralism that both tacitly permits and forgives wide-spread institutional failure.

    In plain English: because people are stuck turning politics into this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Just pointing out that I'm a better person than you!
    ... 300,000 of your countrymen are dead.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Slybak View Post
    You have two parties of technological capital arranged in a fashion whereby important questions of basic political economy are off the table, creating an infinitely recurring tendency to channel all actually occurring politics into not just subcultural spectacle, which would be a bad enough trap, but a spectacle that masks a hyper-atomized, empty moralism that both tacitly permits and forgives wide-spread institutional failure.

    In plain English: because people are stuck turning politics into this...



    ... 300,000 of your countrymen are dead.
    That's one way of looking at it. Its wrong though. The US is stuck in a lot of ways but it can almost always be traced back to the recalcitrance of one group: The GOP.

    Do you really think "Your Both Parties Are The Same" bullshit led to the death of 300k people even though one party mostly tried a common sense response and the other told everyone to ignore it?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    That's one way of looking at it. Its wrong though. The US is stuck in a lot of ways but it can almost always be traced back to the recalcitrance of one group: The GOP.
    The GOP are stuck in the same disaster cycle as everything else, including the two of us. That they are stuck in a marginally worse position in that cycle matters only to the extent that blaming them, and blindly throwing in with the Other Party of Technological Capital, might mitigate crises with some amount of luck. Not forestall them, to say nothing of prevention. We don't do that here. We don't because we can't, and we can't because there is no "we" to do it.

    Do you really think "Your Both Parties Are The Same" bullshit led to the death of 300k people even though one party mostly tried a common sense response and the other told everyone to ignore it?
    My governor is Andrew Cuomo. That he, or more precisely the politics he represents, is not as far along the curve of disaster as, say, Ron DeSantis, didn't prevent the deaths of 30,000 New Yorkers, including people I know. Because he's still on that curve, and the extent to which liberals fawned over him for months for the simple act of going on TV and being calm is evidence enough that they are stuck in their own empty spectacle.

    To say that its not the same spectacle as a COVID denier or some weirdo QAnoner is ultimately neither here no there, because just like you and me those people don't have any power to intervene in multi-decade historical trends. No individual does. The best apparent option they, and you and I, have while operating in spectacle is act like some kind of cop, caught up in individually policing the behavior of other individuals. Looking along the horizon for the source of our problems instead of looking up, at the state of our institutions.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Slybak View Post
    My governor is Andrew Cuomo. That he, or more precisely the politics he represents, is not as far along the curve of disaster as, say, Ron DeSantis, didn't prevent the deaths of 30,000 New Yorkers, including people I know. Because he's still on that curve, and the extent to which liberals fawned over him for months for the simple act of going on TV and being calm is evidence enough that they are stuck in their own empty spectacle.
    Cuomo is far from perfect. However, he had a huge crisis on his hands the full magnitude of which was not immediately known. For example, back in March I figured New York was going to get hit hard being a huge destination but Covid was being spread by European travellers probably as far back as January. On top of that alot of those deaths can be laid at the feet of Trump because his millions of New York state supporters actively tried to shirk Cuomo's actions.

    De Santis by comparison is a dumpster fire. Not only did he do nothing he actively worked to make mitigation harder. And the worst part is De Santis is still an improvement over his predecessor.

    These two examples are not even remotely equivalent. And you'll find more without trying. Go ahead criticize the Dems. They deserve it! But DO NOT say they are the same as the GOP. Its not even close.

  13. #53
    I'm wondering, do the people who were stanning Josh Hawley all of 2 weeks ago ... have any buyers remorse?

    On the other hand, Coach Pop needs to run for office.

    Gregg Popovich’s pregame address:

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    It's just Milkshake doing the scheduled periodic attack on everything left of Ronald Reagan thing.
    The modern Democrats are to the right of Ronald Reagan, I think we need a new yardstick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  15. #55
    The ballad of Anthime Joseph Gionet. Seems like a lesson for people that put performance over policy.

    "He first put a Bernie Sanders portrait on his desk, two former colleagues said. Then, he moved on to wearing MAGA hats..."


    “His politics have been guided by platform metrics,” reflected Andrew Gauthier, who was a top video producer at BuzzFeed and later worked for Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s presidential campaign. “You always think that evil is going to come from movie villain evil, and then you’re like — oh no, evil can just start with bad jokes and nihilistic behavior that is fueled by positive reinforcement on various platforms.”

  16. #56
    These type of socialists are so weird

    Never have I seen a group so mad at a party bc its members think differently. Yeah Manchin is not on board with the 2000$ stimulus, dude is from WV like what were you expecting???

  17. #57
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Honestly, if the fallout hitting the GOP this year is as big as it's expected to be, 2021 is the perfect year for DemSocs (Bernie supporters) to transform the GOP. Most GOP voters are lower income rural votes who have, in many cases, been voting against their own interests for years. Bernie in 2016 showed that some social policies are very popular with rural voters, as long as they aren't supported by an official Democrat.

    Dems are bascially centrists, and Trump's legacy will be the destruction of the GOP. America needs to shift left, and the best way to do that is to transform the GOP into a party that is still about rural voters, but actually has social policies supporting them and the middle-lower class in general.

  18. #58
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    These type of socialists are so weird

    Never have I seen a group so mad at a party bc its members think differently. Yeah Manchin is not on board with the 2000$ stimulus, dude is from WV like what were you expecting???
    The issue is even deeper, since he is on board... He just listed covid as a priority above all else, then the rhetoric was spun from that...
    As above, so below.
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  19. #59
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    Honestly, if the fallout hitting the GOP this year is as big as it's expected to be, 2021 is the perfect year for DemSocs (Bernie supporters) to transform the GOP. Most GOP voters are lower income rural votes who have, in many cases, been voting against their own interests for years. Bernie in 2016 showed that some social policies are very popular with rural voters, as long as they aren't supported by an official Democrat.

    Dems are bascially centrists, and Trump's legacy will be the destruction of the GOP. America needs to shift left, and the best way to do that is to transform the GOP into a party that is still about rural voters, but actually has social policies supporting them and the middle-lower class in general.
    Any party with a rural focus is basically doomed to remain irrelevant forever.

    Rural America is only 20% of the population. If that's your primary focus, against the interests of the 80% of urban voters, you're never gonna win a national election.

  20. #60
    Banned Saninicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Cuomo is far from perfect. However, he had a huge crisis on his hands the full magnitude of which was not immediately known. For example, back in March I figured New York was going to get hit hard being a huge destination but Covid was being spread by European travellers probably as far back as January. On top of that alot of those deaths can be laid at the feet of Trump because his millions of New York state supporters actively tried to shirk Cuomo's actions.

    De Santis by comparison is a dumpster fire. Not only did he do nothing he actively worked to make mitigation harder. And the worst part is De Santis is still an improvement over his predecessor.

    These two examples are not even remotely equivalent. And you'll find more without trying. Go ahead criticize the Dems. They deserve it! But DO NOT say they are the same as the GOP. Its not even close.
    A disease spreads easily in a cramped, old, densely populated cities. News at 11. Unfortunately all it'll take is a handful of dumbasses to fuck up. Now I put the majority of the blame right on trump. From claiming it's a hoax. To not masking up. Followed by no federal response. That's all on him and his administration. While states do have a large amount of control. A federal response and guidance would've made it a lot better.
    Last edited by Saninicus; 2021-01-13 at 03:20 PM.

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