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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Now that's just downright false, it's known for the funny figurines most of all and for the weird but funny memes that seep out of the fandom every so often.

    The lore seems shit, a bit like an underage edgy/grimdark coffee addicted teen with a penchant for american comic books wrote it.
    And how many novels have you read? there is hundreds of them.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Now that's just downright false, it's known for the funny figurines most of all and for the weird but funny (and usually very edgy) memes that seep out of the fandom every so often.
    Not at all. It is often cited that many consumers are unaware of the miniature wargame. Often consumers think WH, 40k in particular is just a series of video games and novels. Even GW staff has admitted this in various podcasts and the like. GW has tried to up the visibility of the wargame because of this in recent years.

    I also read that WH40k Audiobooks are some of the best-selling audiobooks in the genre.

    There are also more users and channels about the lore of Warhammer than on the miniatures. Really, an out-of-touch statement you got going on here.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Black library easily has some Of the best writers in any game related media with people like Dan Abnett and William King, while they might not be on the level of pure fantasy writers like Terry Pratchett or brandon sanderson brandson they are unmatched in any thing related to games.

    Truly an incredibly unbiased opinion. How many video game related novel series have you touched again? Like, hell, firstly it is not video game novels, it is "Ip work" ad they like to call it. That includes stuff like the thrawn stuff from the early expanded universe, the halo silentum novels and much, much more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Not at all. It is often cited that many consumers are unaware of the miniature wargame. Often consumers think WH, 40k in particular is just a series of video games and novels. Even GW staff has admitted this in various podcasts and the like. GW has tried to up the visibility of the wargame because of this in recent years.

    I also read that WH40k Audiobooks are some of the best-selling audiobooks in the genre.

    There are also more users and channels about the lore of Warhammer than on the miniatures. Really, an out-of-touch statement you got going on here.

    How do i put this. That crowd is borderline irrelevant. Black library is 0.7%of sales. Licenses like 8%.

    Wanna know why they sell? Because there is a big prebuilt buyer base that wants to read about their choice of plastic men. This also brings us to the fact that many novels are just compromises, generally 'bolter porn' (just meaningless, fairly vapid action), so that the author can do their pet project: the 1st will cover the sales of the later.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kragan View Post
    How do i put this. That crowd is borderline irrelevant. Black library is 0.7 of sales. Licenses like 8%.

    Wanna know why they sell? Because there is a big prebuilt buyer base that wants to read about their choice of plastic men. This also brings us to the fact that many novels are just compromises, generally 'bolter porn' (just meaningless, fairly vapid action), so that the author can do their pet project: the 1st will cover the sales of the later.
    This has nothing to do with the post I quoted and replied to. That post stated WH was known for the miniatures wargame "most of all". That is not true and sales would not reflect that engagement.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Now that's just downright false, it's known for the funny figurines most of all and for the weird but funny (and usually very edgy) memes that seep out of the fandom every so often.

    The lore seems shit, a bit like an underage edgy/grimdark coffee addicted teen with a penchant for american comic books wrote it.
    And what makes people buy those figurines and make those memes? the lore.... the lore buddy... theres a reason dwarves have a meme about their book of grudges all the time, its from the lore.

    The lore channels on youtube have millions of views on their videos... while the tabletop/figurine centric ones are lucky if they get over half a mil.

    Warhammer IS known for its lore... you can deny that all you want, but its definitely not false.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This has nothing to do with the post I quoted and replied to. That post stated WH was known for the miniatures wargame "most of all". That is not true and sales would not reflect that engagement.

    It is, though. Tabletop gaming may be a niche but it is a pretty old and extended niche. 40k/whf have been juggernauts in that market since the mid 90s, to the point non-gw games are refered to as "alternative" wargames.

    Miniatures are the main factor there.

    Regardless, this is about riot's background being department led a guy that thinks reddit has valid takes on theology.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kragan View Post
    Truly an incredibly unbiased opinion. How many video game related novel series have you touched again? Like, hell, firstly it is not video game novels, it is "Ip work" ad they like to call it. That includes stuff like the thrawn stuff from the early expanded universe, the halo silentum novels and much, much more.

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    How do i put this. That crowd is borderline irrelevant. Black library is 0.7%of sales. Licenses like 8%.

    Wanna know why they sell? Because there is a big prebuilt buyer base that wants to read about their choice of plastic men. This also brings us to the fact that many novels are just compromises, generally 'bolter porn' (just meaningless, fairly vapid action), so that the author can do their pet project: the 1st will cover the sales of the later.
    They have entire series nowdays that's everything but bolter porn like Warhammer horror and Warhammer crime series that's very good too. Other then that what do you expect in a setting that's in constant war but that does not mean you cant make great novels they show that they can time after time.
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2022-08-15 at 01:58 PM.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    They have entire series nowdays that's everything but bolter porn like Warhammer horror and Warhammer crime series that's very good too. Other then that what do you expect in a setting that's in constant war.
    They are quite bad, juvenile even, attempts at horror. Haven't tried checking the crime series.

    "What do you expect in a setting that's in constant war".

    Right. Letters from Iwo Jima is a movie set in world war 2. Everything about that is war. Guess what? Not every single scene is filled with explosions. You can have novels about war without devolving into mere 'bolter porn'.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kragan View Post
    They are quite bad, juvenile even, attempts at horror. Haven't tried checking the crime series.

    "What do you expect in a setting that's in constant war".

    Right. Letters from Iwo Jima is a movie set in world war 2. Everything about that is war. Guess what? Not every single scene is filled with explosions. You can have novels about war without devolving into mere 'bolter porn'.
    Right but tons of people obviously love them so opinions, and not every sceene i Warhammer novels is constant bolter porn either. I love it though and have been reading novels in that setting for 20 years.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  10. #350
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kragan View Post
    Truly an incredibly unbiased opinion. How many video game related novel series have you touched again? Like, hell, firstly it is not video game novels, it is "Ip work" ad they like to call it. That includes stuff like the thrawn stuff from the early expanded universe, the halo silentum novels and much, much more.
    Never mentioned video game novels I said any game related media, that includes game them selfs, novels, comic, shows, short story’s ect.

    But if you just want to go over novels, I’ve read dragon age, starwars, halo, Warcraft, AVP, Fable, StarCraft, and likely a few others I’m forgetting.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    And how many novels have you read? there is hundreds of them.
    That really does not matter, the world outside of the warhammer fandom is much greater and is thus what defines "what warhammer is known for". Ask anyone about warhammer and the two likeliest answers are "Wait isn't that those weirdly expensive figurines?" or "Haha the Emperor protects! Skulls for the skull throne!" or something along those lines.

    I am not a fan of warhammer so naturally i have not bothered with whole novels, however much of its lore can be known through other means. Not always voluntary i might add; the memeing is sometimes quite incessant. ^^'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaka View Post
    And what makes people buy those figurines and make those memes? the lore.... the lore buddy... theres a reason dwarves have a meme about their book of grudges all the time, its from the lore.

    The lore channels on youtube have millions of views on their videos... while the tabletop/figurine centric ones are lucky if they get over half a mil.

    Warhammer IS known for its lore... you can deny that all you want, but its definitely not false.
    Friends, usually, actually.
    I've more than a few friends that are into it, as with most games it's more fun with more friends, and since there are (for some) significant costs and efforts involved people get a bit too attached, like an emotional variation of the sunken cost fallacy.

    Nothing to indicate noteworthy quality among the lore though, even if it's good for a few laughs.

    Also there is plenty of bullshit with millions of views, i suppose i could sift through youtube to prove the point but frankly that's so obvious that there is no burden of proof on me to speak of.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Otaka View Post
    And what makes people buy those figurines and make those memes? the lore.... the lore buddy... theres a reason dwarves have a meme about their book of grudges all the time, its from the lore.
    Lolno. People buy the minis because they look cool and like collecting them or painting them or what not. Not because of lore. The sets that sell well are the front and center easy to understand sets that are also the subject of games, by an overwhelming majority, Space Marines, the thing you need no lore to understand because they are conceptually ubiquitous.

    Most people who are buying minis aren't deep diving into books to figure out which has the most interesting backstory, they buy the ones they like the aesthetics of and thing are cool.

    The lore channels on youtube have millions of views on their videos... while the tabletop/figurine centric ones are lucky if they get over half a mil.

    Warhammer IS known for its lore... you can deny that all you want, but its definitely not false.
    You don't realize it, but this is evidence of exactly how wrong you are. The reason that lore channels get lots of views isn't because the lore matters and is what people care about--it's the exact opposite, they get lots of views because people get into a thing not giving a shit about the lore and then don't care enough about the lore to go read a novel or deep dive into wiki articles themselves and would rather speedwatch a youtube video that summarizes lore points so that they know the basics and don't have to invest any significant amount of time in it.

    The people who are racking up views on Nobbel87's channel (or god forbid Pyromancer's), are not the people who are really into Warcraft lore and play the games for lore and read all the books--because they already know all that shit and don't need a bullet point list of things they're already aware of. The people watching those channels are people who spam click through quests, are barely aware that WoW has books, and then don't understand what is going on and want someone to explain it in an easy and quick way. Someone who knows warcraft doesn't need "the entire story of warcraft in 40 minutes", the average player who doesn't really care does.

    The exact same is true of both warhammer and 40k. 95% of people who clicked on Astartes, or who buy Virmintide, Dawn of War or Space Marine, or have ever used the phrase "blood for the blood god" do not know (or give a shit about knowing) the lore of Warhammer or 40k. They know that it is a thin,g and they probably know that it involves some analog game, or that it has video games and they might know that there are some books for it. People who are into 40k lore are a tiny, specialized niche, even amongst people that fully know what 40k is and have played games or have some physical figures.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2022-08-15 at 02:53 PM.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    That really does not matter, the world outside of the warhammer fandom is much greater and is thus what defines "what warhammer is known for". Ask anyone about warhammer and the two likeliest answers are "Wait isn't that those weirdly expensive figurines?" or "Haha the Emperor protects! Skulls for the skull throne!" or something along those lines.

    I am not a fan of warhammer so naturally i have not bothered with whole novels, however much of its lore can be known through other means. Not always voluntary i might add; the memeing is sometimes quite incessant. ^^'

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    Friends, usually, actually.
    I've more than a few friends that are into it, as with most games it's more fun with more friends, and since there are (for some) significant costs and efforts involved people get a bit too attached, like an emotional variation of the sunken cost fallacy.

    Nothing to indicate noteworthy quality among the lore though, even if it's good for a few laughs.

    Also there is plenty of bullshit with millions of views, i suppose i could sift through youtube to prove the point but frankly that's so obvious that there is no burden of proof on me to speak of.
    Right so you have not even read a novel to build your own opinion but asking "friends" or random people lol do you do that with everything else too? Still no matter how you put it the lore is very very popular and is only getting more popular because they actually put out great novels and have great lore simple as that.

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    OT though there is no doubt this mmo is going to be popular atleast at the start depending on how good the game is. The fan base is massive just compare the season 2022 lol trailer with 138 million views compared to lets say the dragonflight trailer with 2.5 million views just as a example.

    I dont play lol and have no interest in it but the animated show Arcane is one of the best i have seen so there is alot of passion going into the ip.

    But we will see i will try it and still play other games like wow.
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2022-08-15 at 03:43 PM.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  14. #354
    You can make a story focused on a segment of the universe. An mmo must cover... well, either it all or a large part. Then you can see the cracks. Plus, arcane wasn't written by lol's writting staff, that can't be chalked to them.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kragan View Post
    You can make a story focused on a segment of the universe. An mmo must cover... well, either it all or a large part. Then you can see the cracks. Plus, arcane wasn't written by lol's writting staff, that can't be chalked to them.
    writer for the series

    https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/w...hips%27_Sheehy

    co creators and executive producers

    https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/w...raeco%27_Linke
    https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/w...ribbles%27_Yee


    full credit where credit is due, Fortiche did amazing job animating, but yeah, it was written by people working on LoL narratives. it used to have prefunctory stories at best, but its gotten completely reworked around 2014 and has been a lot more cohesive and expansive. so... there's that.

  16. #356
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Where I live, when people say Warhammer, they're talking about the tabletop wargaming scene and painting grotesque models. Some nerds know about the RTS videogame but even then that's pretty obscure. If you start talking about Eisenhorn or Ciphas Cain or Horus Heresy, chances are nobody is going to know what you are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    OT though there is no doubt this mmo is going to be popular atleast at the start depending on how good the game is. The fan base is massive just compare the season 2022 lol trailer with 138 million views compared to lets say the dragonflight trailer with 2.5 million views just as a example.
    Where is the bulk of LoL's fans concentrated? In Asia? LoL isn't very popular here in the states. If people talk about a MOBA then they usually bring up DOTA.

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    I don't see the LoL MMO reaching WoW levels of popularity, at least not here. WoW's massive explosion of popularity was facilitated by the normie corporate media. WoW was the last gasp of an era in which there was a monolothic corporate infrastructure that could direct everybody's attention to this one thing and continue delivering to meet demand. We probably won't see an explosion in popularity like WoW again, all pervading cultural phenomena known to everyone. Today, people's options are too diversified to catch everybody's attention.

    The LoL MMO might become FFXIV sized (2 million subs) but it's not going to get 12 million people paying $15 a month.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    Ghostcrawler teased something on twitter a couple days ago:
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

    Extremely vague...but...is something i guess
    That is a bad sign to me. They want to make a mediocre game ala WoW, except WoW was great at the time it launched. MMORPG's have evolved in the last 2 decades. They are much more than just the "multiplayer mode".
    The fact he already only calls it an "MMO" raises immediate questions.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    That is a bad sign to me. They want to make a mediocre game ala WoW, except WoW was great at the time it launched.
    How on earth did you come to that conclusion off an intentionally vague Twitter post about wanting social connections to be a part of a MMO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    MMORPG's have evolved in the last 2 decades. They are much more than just the "multiplayer mode".
    Yes, they've gotten extremely friendly to solo play with little to no actual grouping required. I don't say that as a criticism personally, I am more of a solo player so it works just fine for me. But unarguably, a big part of the whole MMO bit of modern MMO's has been chipped away and we're mostly just all doing our own thing - because that's what many wanted and that's what designers have delivered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    The fact he already only calls it an "MMO" raises immediate questions.
    Why? He's leading development on Riot Games "unannounced" MMORPG title, which they're hiring for still. He's specifically talking about the MMO part of MMO's in his tweet. What questions does it raise?

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    That is a bad sign to me. They want to make a mediocre game ala WoW, except WoW was great at the time it launched. MMORPG's have evolved in the last 2 decades. They are much more than just the "multiplayer mode".
    The fact he already only calls it an "MMO" raises immediate questions.
    He's talked about the holy trinity, typical classes and things like fishing and such. It's an MMORPG - he probably just says MMO until the actual game itself is fully revealed - or that they don't consider it a full RPG. Which is possible - but it's definitely going to be something very familiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The LoL MMO might become FFXIV sized (2 million subs) but it's not going to get 12 million people paying $15 a month.
    If it's any good, it'll be F2P and surpass 12 million and become more popular than WoW. Welcome to Riot's freemium juggernaut mentality that has served them well so far. They are all about them active, retaining, and gaining players - while also having decent games. S'what they do, and they absolutely do it well.

    PS: Valorant is as popular if not more than CS:GO now, and LoL is vastly more popular than DotA 2 - not that either respective game is unpopular by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, considering a lot players in either community in whatever game know about their opposing game's name - it's really not a competition between the people who play it - more-so who outside of the games want to play.

    And LoL beats DotA 2 by a wide gap forever now, this isn't even counting how Wild Rift (Or the spin off titles) makes that difference even larger. Valorant will surpass CS:GO in ludicrous bounds once it hits mobile too - let alone console, whenever they release either of these versions - unless VALVE answers and makes a console version at least with CS:GO (WHICH THEY SHOULD).

    This'll play out the same way with their MMORPG - if any of their trends in the last 6-8 years have been any indicator.
    Last edited by PenguinChan; 2022-08-16 at 05:23 AM.

  20. #360
    At that point you can burn the market then :V.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    writer for the series

    https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/w...hips%27_Sheehy

    co creators and executive producers

    https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/w...raeco%27_Linke
    https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/w...ribbles%27_Yee


    full credit where credit is due, Fortiche did amazing job animating, but yeah, it was written by people working on LoL narratives. it used to have prefunctory stories at best, but its gotten completely reworked around 2014 and has been a lot more cohesive and expansive. so... there's that.
    So, I personally liked more the pre-2014 stuff? I also think the obsession with retcons and retweaks is hurtful. Doesn't help your argunent that the best part of arcane, at leadt for me, was the animation and by a faie margin. Plus the last narrative event, from what little i checked, was a mess.

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