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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Riot has already lost the plot though, by thinking that what the current MMO market needs is a game that focuses on community and multiplayer, eschewing singleplayer capability. That has not been what the market is looking for the better part of a decade.
    Possibly, but I think folks are overthinking just how group-focused it will be. That'll be a game like Pantheon, which is specifically going for the much more oldschool MMO direction of needing to group with other players to do just about anything meaningful. We'll have to wait to find out more since we're reacting based off of incomplete, early information that could very well completely change between now and when the title is officially launched, but I think folks are taking things as too much of a binary vs. using shades of color.

    Though at the same time, there's the possibility that there's a large enough market for that type of MMO given the lack of big-budget titles designed in that direction over the years. The closest I can think of in the past decade is something like WildStar, but that's a huge stretch seeing as the game was overwhelmingly designed with a solo focus until you hit raiding and then suddenly had to put together 40 people for a raid.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Yeah, one spec on one class in one expansion being enjoyable to one person is not a good marker of whether a dev was a benefit or detriment. That you liked a single design decision he maybe put some input into doesn't mean "overall he made the game fun".
    The fact that you think I’m praising ghost crawler for the design of the ret Paladin proves that you have absolutely no clue what he has done. I said that because as a ret Paladin I should hate him.

    Please don’t comment on things you have absolutely no clue about. Thanks.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Possibly, but I think folks are overthinking just how group-focused it will be. That'll be a game like Pantheon, which is specifically going for the much more oldschool MMO direction of needing to group with other players to do just about anything meaningful. We'll have to wait to find out more since we're reacting based off of incomplete, early information that could very well completely change between now and when the title is officially launched, but I think folks are taking things as too much of a binary vs. using shades of color.

    Though at the same time, there's the possibility that there's a large enough market for that type of MMO given the lack of big-budget titles designed in that direction over the years. The closest I can think of in the past decade is something like WildStar, but that's a huge stretch seeing as the game was overwhelmingly designed with a solo focus until you hit raiding and then suddenly had to put together 40 people for a raid.
    I think the problem will be less with group vs. solo and more with organized vs. ad-hoc. If you have solid tools that facilitate group play on demand, many people don't mind playing in groups - a significant portion of the reluctance to play in groups comes from having to, well, find and manage those groups. If you take that away from people and outsource it to a system, the number of people who don't want to do group content tends to go down dramatically.

    At the same time, people are probably increasingly looking for bite-sized content they can do whenever they want - less of the find a guild to do a 3-hour raid twice a week kind of content, and more of the press a button and get into a group to do a 15-30 minute dungeon kind of content. I fully expect this game to cater to the latter MUCH more than the former.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I think the problem will be less with group vs. solo and more with organized vs. ad-hoc. If you have solid tools that facilitate group play on demand, many people don't mind playing in groups - a significant portion of the reluctance to play in groups comes from having to, well, find and manage those groups. If you take that away from people and outsource it to a system, the number of people who don't want to do group content tends to go down dramatically.

    At the same time, people are probably increasingly looking for bite-sized content they can do whenever they want - less of the find a guild to do a 3-hour raid twice a week kind of content, and more of the press a button and get into a group to do a 15-30 minute dungeon kind of content. I fully expect this game to cater to the latter MUCH more than the former.
    Yeah, I agree. A game like GW2 is a bit more "social" in its structure without requiring grouping specifically as grouping vs. simply "being around other players" largely achieves the same results, and with zone-wide meta events and world bosses there are a lot of reasons to join others to tackle something. And it doesn't require you to do more than simply show up, unless you want to join the squad itself or something. There's still a LFG system (non-automated) that's used, but there's friction there so it's more for proper organized groups than not.

    Big yes on more "bite-sized" content too. I somehow don't think this is gonna be a second generation MMO designed in the spirt of your WoW's or EQ2's or anything with more traditional raiding endgames, but at this point we don't know either way.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    The fact that you think I’m praising ghost crawler for the design of the ret Paladin proves that you have absolutely no clue what he has done. I said that because as a ret Paladin I should hate him.

    Please don’t comment on things you have absolutely no clue about. Thanks.
    The fact that you think any design decision is objectively one way or the other proves that my response was wholly correct. Switch "enjoyable" to "not enjoyable", "liked" to "didn't like" and "fun" to "unfun" and the result is the same: There are people who love wrath class design and problems with wrath class design. Being up your own ass and sarcastic still doesn't make him a benefit or a detriment, just a neutral figure who did both good and bad.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    The fact that you think any design decision is objectively one way or the other proves that my response was wholly correct. Switch "enjoyable" to "not enjoyable", "liked" to "didn't like" and "fun" to "unfun" and the result is the same: There are people who love wrath class design and problems with wrath class design. Being up your own ass and sarcastic still doesn't make him a benefit or a detriment, just a neutral figure who did both good and bad.
    And you are in no position to hold any opinion of the fact of whether he is positive or negative because you clearly don’t even know what he did. If you’re going to say “we’ll just because you liked it, it doesn’t mean he is good” then by that standard no developer ever in any game was ever good nor bad ever. And there will never be such things as good developers or bad developers in the history of gaming.

    Even if you had room to hold an opinion on ghost crawler, which you have proven you don’t, then your opinion would still be worthless because it’s nihilistic. It doesn’t mean anything.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    Have you ever in your life seen an MMO?
    Speghetti code is mandatory.
    i'm not like the usual internet idiot who won't admit something. i haven't seen an mmo's code. for that matter, i haven't seen any games code as i tried to get a degree in IT but didn't get very far because of teacher incompetence, school incompetence, and bad luck. so i went for a business degree instead and got near straight A's. i know code is messy at a baseline as i do have some experience from my time learning it. i can't say for sure how messy and if the code can't be organized a lot better than people actually do.

    i bet some one will respond with "they can't organize it better" but when i see a company give instructions to build a product and the first step is open package E and not package A, that tells me idiots are running things.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    i'm not like the usual internet idiot who won't admit something. i haven't seen an mmo's code. for that matter, i haven't seen any games code as i tried to get a degree in IT but didn't get very far because of teacher incompetence, school incompetence, and bad luck. so i went for a business degree instead and got near straight A's. i know code is messy at a baseline as i do have some experience from my time learning it. i can't say for sure how messy and if the code can't be organized a lot better than people actually do.

    i bet some one will respond with "they can't organize it better" but when i see a company give instructions to build a product and the first step is open package E and not package A, that tells me idiots are running things.
    In what context did they open package E and not package A?

  9. #389
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yeah, I agree. A game like GW2 is a bit more "social" in its structure without requiring grouping specifically as grouping vs. simply "being around other players" largely achieves the same results
    Nothing about GW2's system is more "social". Everyone stays silent while one or two commanders directing the crowd do the talking. It's effectively crowds of solo players, no different from crowds of solo players in WoW converging to fight a world boss and then going their separate ways without having ever interacted with each other.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Nothing about GW2's system is more "social". Everyone stays silent while one or two commanders directing the crowd do the talking. It's effectively crowds of solo players, no different from crowds of solo players in WoW converging to fight a world boss and then going their separate ways without having ever interacted with each other.
    That's missing the point, I think.

    "Social" doesn't inherently mean chatting and making friends. It often just means, "Working together alongside others towards a shared goal." which is still more social than "doing my own thing and ignoring everyone else in the world." Sometimes it's just a boss, as you say, and then everyone moves on, other times in GW2 it's a whole map meta with people following directions from a handful of commanders and working together across multiple areas of the zone while they complete different accomplishments. Things like most of the HoT zone meta's or the Dragon's Stand meta, all of which require a fair amount of coordination between groups of people working separately and then coming together. That's still far more "social" than most MMO design, and that remains increased social interaction even without folks chatting away (which does happen sometimes).

    And for a Riot MMO, there are a ton of different ways this could be expressed/pursued through both content and system design.

    "social interaction/structures" are a sliding scale, not a binary.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    In what context did they open package E and not package A?
    it's just a personal example. it was for a computer monitor stand that would hold two monitors. it just seems common sense to me that you would organize the packaging to go with the instruction steps...

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    it's just a personal example. it was for a computer monitor stand that would hold two monitors. it just seems common sense to me that you would organize the packaging to go with the instruction steps...
    I’m so confused, are you talking about riot? What does this have to do with a code?

  13. #393
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I think the problem will be less with group vs. solo and more with organized vs. ad-hoc. If you have solid tools that facilitate group play on demand, many people don't mind playing in groups - a significant portion of the reluctance to play in groups comes from having to, well, find and manage those groups. If you take that away from people and outsource it to a system, the number of people who don't want to do group content tends to go down dramatically.

    At the same time, people are probably increasingly looking for bite-sized content they can do whenever they want - less of the find a guild to do a 3-hour raid twice a week kind of content, and more of the press a button and get into a group to do a 15-30 minute dungeon kind of content. I fully expect this game to cater to the latter MUCH more than the former.
    If this game does indeed end up falling along the concepts you have outlined, then I will absolutely be giving it a go. I haven't watched Arcane yet, though I plan to, and I've never been able to get into League but what little I do know of the world they've built does interest me and the visuals I've seen are pretty stunning. Asmongold watched a patch trailer or somesuch the other day and I was stunned by how much better it looked than anything Blizzard have ever done.

    Plus, it'd be nice to play an MMO with actual massive numbers that also caters to my playstyle, at least somewhat

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    I’m so confused, are you talking about riot? What does this have to do with a code?
    it's an analogy. it's really just meant to show big companies usually have common sense areas they can improve on. in this case, i wouldn't be surprised if mmo code was written as a jumbled mess because it wasn't written to be organized in the first place.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    it's an analogy. it's really just meant to show big companies usually have common sense areas they can improve on. in this case, i wouldn't be surprised if mmo code was written as a jumbled mess because it wasn't written to be organized in the first place.
    That’s what I’m asking, what were you referring to in terms of riots codes, because there’s nothing in my mind that riot has done or shown to even allow you to say this. Or are you just saying it because being negative sounds cool lol

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    That’s what I’m asking, what were you referring to in terms of riots codes, because there’s nothing in my mind that riot has done or shown to even allow you to say this. Or are you just saying it because being negative sounds cool lol
    you need to read the post that i replied to if you don't know what i'm referring to.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    you need to read the post that i replied to if you don't know what i'm referring to.
    Yeah you said spaghetti code in league of legends. For the third time, what are you referring to when you say this? What makes it spaghetti code and what made you say your analogy. It makes absolutely no sense lol

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    Yeah you said spaghetti code in league of legends. For the third time, what are you referring to when you say this? What makes it spaghetti code and what made you say your analogy. It makes absolutely no sense lol
    yup... you didn't read what i responded too... you didn't even read what i wrote going by what you're saying...

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    If this game does indeed end up falling along the concepts you have outlined, then I will absolutely be giving it a go. I haven't watched Arcane yet, though I plan to, and I've never been able to get into League but what little I do know of the world they've built does interest me and the visuals I've seen are pretty stunning. Asmongold watched a patch trailer or somesuch the other day and I was stunned by how much better it looked than anything Blizzard have ever done.

    Plus, it'd be nice to play an MMO with actual massive numbers that also caters to my playstyle, at least somewhat
    Well GCs tweet points in exactly the opposite direction, though. "friends, community" points more in a guild-focused raid direction.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    yup... you didn't read what i responded too... you didn't even read what i wrote going by what you're saying...
    I just told you what you responded to. Are you okay?

    Nothing you’re saying makes any sense and I think you know that.
    Last edited by Somic; 2022-08-18 at 11:21 AM.

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