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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The literal words of Blizzard themselves in a shareholder call where they say engagement is higher then usual at this point in the expansion?

    So either Blizzard is lying to its shareholders (a crime) or your wrong.

    https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...all-transcript
    Notice the coded language in that statement. They didn’t say shadowlands engagement was higher than usual. They said wow engagement was higher than usual. I got news for you: shadowlands is the first expansion to launch while classic exists. Classic has an extremely stable population. It’s been at less than 20% low pop realms for over a year. That stable population is going to make wows numbers look good relative to other expansions.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Basically all of PvE gearing, not only the raid. $&#@ simply doesn't drop, vault f***s you in the ass more often than not, so you pretty much HAVE to get into the mess that is 9.0 PvP if you want to gear up at a decent pace.
    That’s not what I mean and you know it. I mean items so rare only one exists per server, if that.

    Legendarys that are guild built for one player and hella rare.

    Etc etc.

    It’s Diablo 3 loot now with different ilvls. I’d rather have UNIQUE loot

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Notice the coded language in that statement. They didn’t say shadowlands engagement was higher than usual. They said wow engagement was higher than usual. I got news for you: shadowlands is the first expansion to launch while classic exists. Classic has an extremely stable population. It’s been at less than 20% low pop realms for over a year. That stable population is going to make wows numbers look good relative to other expansions.
    We also can notice the :

    "World of Warcraft MAUs grew year-over-year for the sixth consecutive quarter, contributing to overall Blizzard MAUs of 29 million in the fourth quarter."

    One chance at guessing for how many quarters Classic has been released.

  4. #544
    Based on where we currently are with SL, here's my favourites list:

    - WotLK
    - SL
    - Legion
    - BFA
    - TBC
    - MoP
    - WoD
    - Cata

    It's a tough one in some parts. For example, I place WotLK and SL very closely. WotLK had Ulduar and a consistent theme throughout which gives it a lot of points. It was also the last time I raided with an organized group. Hell, since sometime in WoD, I've been in a guild with just my alts and no one else (because the guild bank gave me more space for random things I didn't want to destroy). WotLK is also when I achieved Battlemaster as a protection paladin, admittedly this being the peak of their PVP time as being the class who could really annoy enemies. The mana issues were a problem for a while, but ultimately being able to pop out Shield of the Righteous for 8K crits while having the utility of a druid, self-healing unlike any existing class at the time, and damage reduction only matched by Warriors meant that it was a lot of fun to play. Being able to MT on Algalon as well as most other bosses, and being on par with a Warrior is one of my best memories.

    Legion stands on it's own, but not far behind SL. The legendary system was fun, and introducing the demon hunter to the game felt like it mixed things up in a nice way. I'd always wanted to play a dual-wield class, but both Warrior and Rogue playstyles didn't appeal to me - rogues lacked self-healing and I strongly dislike combo-point playstyles, and Warriors dual-wield seemed to be an afterthought based on the community's dialogue of the spec. The story wasn't terrible, and I ultimately felt like I knew the direction the expansion would go.

    TBC - I started playing early in TBC, so I have a lot of fond memories from then. I also remember that Protection Paladins were just trash tanks, and being 'specialized for Hyjal trash' wasn't my idea of fun, neither was being the fire resist tank for Illidan (and being worse at the job than a Warrior)... but I liked the idea of the spec. I do recall being unable to lose aggro on Gurtogg in BT (the huge fel orc boss) because I was getting too much threat from mana regen which was caused by being healed. Even threat-reduction blessing and BoP didn't help once they wore off.

    BFA was when I was most active in the game at a sort-of high level (after WotLK). I was not a fan of the split zones mainly because remembering where each dungeon was from its name was a nightmare. It's the first time I did mythic dungeons, though only in the final season. The raids weren't bad overall, though I felt like the ending of the expansion was a letdown.

    MoP is on it's own. I hated the daily grind because it felt like a huge gate that I had to work my way past. I tried to enjoy the monk class, and it felt like I'd enjoy it from the commentary that was made about it, but ultimately it didn't really gel with how I like to play. I didn't dislike the idea of Pandaren entering the game, nor did I feel they made the game "too cutesy". I wasn't a huge fan of the storyline, mainly because it seemed to be disjointed at many points, and the power gain that Garrosh showed was just ridiculous. He became a cartoony villain. They also ruined the Vale for SoO, and I can't ever forgive them for that. Before that, Vale was one of my favourite zones to chill in, but they decided we couldn't even have that.

    WoD and Cata both feel messy, both have the same shared place on the list, and both are way below MoP. I once thought that Cata dungeon difficulty increase over WotLK would be nice, but ultimately it just made some of the dungeons unbearably long. I wasn't a fan of the way that the visual style was mixed between SUPER BRIGHT FIRE EVERYWHERE and UTTERLY ENGULFING DARKNESS. I didn't raid at all in the expansion until Dragon Soul, and even though parts were based in Northrend, I wasn't a fan of it overall. WoD was so unmemorable that I don't even remember the story. It was far from an 'outlands prequel'. We didn't even really get to experience the continent getting blown apart. I liked the visual appeal of Frostfire Ridge, but that was the only zone that really appealed to me.

  5. #545
    From my about 10 hours per week casual player perspective this expansion is really good. The things that I feel “mandatory” (renown quests, purple callings, 250 anima WQ, Ve’nari weeklies, dungeon quests) can be completed in solo in 1-1,5 hours, that leaves me plenty of time to do what I like most (M+).

    Feeling I finally don’t have to waste a lot of time grinding things I don’t mind is really good.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    From my about 10 hours per week casual player perspective this expansion is really good. The things that I feel “mandatory” (renown quests, purple callings, 250 anima WQ, Ve’nari weeklies, dungeon quests) can be completed in solo in 1-1,5 hours, that leaves me plenty of time to do what I like most (M+).

    Feeling I finally don’t have to waste a lot of time grinding things I don’t mind is really good.
    The irony is that I feel like there’s more to grind than ever.

    As a mythic main tank, my guild expects me to do 4-10 m+ every week, torghast, maybe rated bg if my gear is behind, keep my reknown up, etc etc

    It’s legit BfA 2.0 for raiders and that’s a major turn off for a lot of mythic raiders who don’t want to be forced into weekly chores to simply raid. Raid logging is a GOOD thing

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    The irony is that I feel like there’s more to grind than ever.

    As a mythic main tank, my guild expects me to do 4-10 m+ every week, torghast, maybe rated bg if my gear is behind, keep my reknown up, etc etc

    It’s legit BfA 2.0 for raiders and that’s a major turn off for a lot of mythic raiders who don’t want to be forced into weekly chores to simply raid. Raid logging is a GOOD thing
    Honestly? That feels more like your guild has unrealistic expectations of you. Especially on Renown and Torghast. By now, you should have more than enough ash for your important Legendaries and Renown won't provide any further power boosts until 9.1.

    I won't agree with the raid logging, though. Focusing on a single activity is never a good thing and leads to faster burnout.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Honestly? That feels more like your guild has unrealistic expectations of you. Especially on Renown and Torghast. By now, you should have more than enough ash for your important Legendaries and Renown won't provide any further power boosts until 9.1.

    I won't agree with the raid logging, though. Focusing on a single activity is never a good thing and leads to faster burnout.
    I don’t disagree about your first point, but I’d point out it leads to animosity. When one of your 2 MT doesn’t want to do m+ and the dps get all upset you don’t log in nightly to do it for them, they take it personally when they shouldn’t. Part of that is my long time guilds problem to deal with

    That said, raid logging is healthy because if it’s the only activity I’m interested in then I should be able to progress on skill alone without needing 101 hoops to jump through.

    I can raid log naxx in classic easier than I can mythic retail currently. Let that sink in

    Raid logging doesn’t lead to burn out, forcing players into activities they don’t want to do like islands, warfronts, torghast, and m+ WILL lead to burn out.

    When you have to do hours of chore content just to enjoy raid content, that is a design flaw in the game itself.

    Each system should offer its own reward structure, 100% independent of the others with no ties other than maybe gear ilvl

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The literal words of Blizzard themselves in a shareholder call where they say engagement is higher then usual at this point in the expansion?

    So either Blizzard is lying to its shareholders (a crime) or your wrong.
    Hollow words coming from a company that stopped publishing subscription numbers and instead are resorting to statistical cherrypicking to present a decent number to their shareholders to paint a positive picture.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    Hollow words coming from a company that stopped publishing subscription numbers and instead are resorting to statistical cherrypicking to present a decent number to their shareholders to paint a positive picture.
    The best part is that Blizz doesn't publish separate statements for Classic and Retail, but instead they lump everything together. Wonder what the numbers engagement is like for SL alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    snipped
    Only one real thing to respond with when it comes to a non-constructive post like this:



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Did you actually call WoW Expansions, DLC? Expansions are literally a game in their own. DLC is additions to a product you already purchased that a company wants to sell you that should of already been in the game to begin with and morons actually buy it.
    So your only concern about this entire topic... is the term I used? Good to know. Also, Downloadable content (DLC) is additional content created for an already released video game, distributed through the Internet by the game's publisher. It doesn't say anything about pricing. Created in 2004 makes it an already existing game.
    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I don’t disagree about your first point, but I’d point out it leads to animosity. When one of your 2 MT doesn’t want to do m+ and the dps get all upset you don’t log in nightly to do it for them, they take it personally when they shouldn’t. Part of that is my long time guilds problem to deal with
    The usual issue. You're one of the MTs for the raid, not their personal servant.

    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    That said, raid logging is healthy because if it’s the only activity I’m interested in then I should be able to progress on skill alone without needing 101 hoops to jump through.
    That's just "it's healthy because it is what i want", not any sensible argumentation.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    It started off that way but it’s trending in the wrong direction currently my dude. Look back at tbc, wotlk, and legion... they didn’t lose 50% of their population throughout the entire expac let alone the launch honeymoon period.

    At this point it’s trending closer to WOD than it is wotlk or tbc or legion (which gained ground)
    Actually I think it did, granted maybe not that high a number but it definitely lost players. The thing was at those points in time it was gaining more new players than it was losing.

    I think whats hurting the game the most is content becoming irrelevant as soon as new content arrives. Like there's just no point for a more causal player to take his time to optimize his character because all of it gets invalidated by next patch catch up and it's better to stop now and pick it up at a later point.
    Last edited by kranur; 2021-03-06 at 04:13 PM.

  14. #554
    I'm experiencing the exact opposite on all fronts, when it comes down to popularity in: how I like the game, how the community likes the game, and how well the game has been doing with its players. Personally I liked the first week or 2 where it was just leveling and seeing all the new content, getting into storylines, searching for better gear, stepping inside Torghast for the first time also felt quite epic. Then once I hit the end game it gets a lot more stale. Its basically back to doing obnoxious grinds, I did all the Maw stuff and I can't say that I enjoyed it a whole lot. A lot of systems that require different resources that I have to farm seperately. World quests are at their worst yet, taking a lot longer and the rewards are generally shit. The raid and dungeons are alright at least. I hate the disconnected zones and how they designed them to just annoy the shit out of you like how they did Legion zones.

    As for the community I can't ofcourse speak for all of them, but I do notice from visiting most forums that got a lot more negative the more months passed. Even now people have gotten quite viscious where on the official forums the most made and populated are ones about people being dissatisfied by the expansion. And its not just the OP, apparently a whole lot of people agree with him. I sometimes see threads of people being positive aswell but they get almost no traffic. Then I have to speak for my guild who now mostly moved on, also quite early considering that other expansions kept them for at least 6 months. I can just barely make a mythic+ with guildies these days.

    Then lastly we see how well the game is doing. Blizzard will ofcourse say nothing but positive things, that their ''engagement'' metrics are as high as ever, yet its such a scuffed metric that it hardly says anything about the game. Engagement could simply mean anyone talking about the game on any platform. And they lump both retail and Classic numbers together, so who knows how much of these numbers are actually coming from Classic which has apparently been doing amazing since it came out.

    As of now I've gotten only 2 characters maxed up and really wanted to level a 3rd one, but then I got reminded that I have to do all that shit AGAIN and having to go through that slog of a questing experience which quickly got stale after the first time. After hearing about Classic TBC being a thing I'd rather just want to prepare for that game instead.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I don’t disagree about your first point, but I’d point out it leads to animosity. When one of your 2 MT doesn’t want to do m+ and the dps get all upset you don’t log in nightly to do it for them, they take it personally when they shouldn’t. Part of that is my long time guilds problem to deal with

    That said, raid logging is healthy because if it’s the only activity I’m interested in then I should be able to progress on skill alone without needing 101 hoops to jump through.

    I can raid log naxx in classic easier than I can mythic retail currently. Let that sink in

    Raid logging doesn’t lead to burn out, forcing players into activities they don’t want to do like islands, warfronts, torghast, and m+ WILL lead to burn out.

    When you have to do hours of chore content just to enjoy raid content, that is a design flaw in the game itself.

    Each system should offer its own reward structure, 100% independent of the others with no ties other than maybe gear ilvl
    it leads though to 50 % of playerbase leaving game 2 months after launch .

    by the time 9.1 lands it will be 80-90 % of playerbase gone

    sure raid loggers are happy - happy that game is dying but they can enjoy just raids.

    the only good thing out of it is that WoD fiasco (much smaller then SL ) lead to Legion and BfA

    this means that 10.0 should be casual heaven if it even comes out because activision can decide to pull the plug on wow with so many players gone

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    My guild has been dead for a month.

    People only log for raids and gave up on m+.

    Once we get cutting edge, most of the guild will quit until 9.1
    same here with my uber casual guild . we are already only extending denathrius hc because gear from raid is pointless with how garbage drop rates are / everyone has 3/4 of gear on 220-226 from GV from m+ - once its dead i bet 3/4 of team will quit till 9.1.

  16. #556
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I don’t disagree about your first point, but I’d point out it leads to animosity. When one of your 2 MT doesn’t want to do m+ and the dps get all upset you don’t log in nightly to do it for them, they take it personally when they shouldn’t. Part of that is my long time guilds problem to deal with

    That said, raid logging is healthy because if it’s the only activity I’m interested in then I should be able to progress on skill alone without needing 101 hoops to jump through.

    I can raid log naxx in classic easier than I can mythic retail currently. Let that sink in

    Raid logging doesn’t lead to burn out, forcing players into activities they don’t want to do like islands, warfronts, torghast, and m+ WILL lead to burn out.

    When you have to do hours of chore content just to enjoy raid content, that is a design flaw in the game itself.

    Each system should offer its own reward structure, 100% independent of the others with no ties other than maybe gear ilvl
    Blizzard appears to be moving in this direction, but I would caution them against it. When you have multiple roads that lead to different outcomes in a game like this, with no overlap, you might wind up with a game that doesn't feel like a cohesive world, but rather a true lobby game where no one has anything in common with anyone else. WoW's been steadily changing towards this, and I get the feeling that the consequences of that has been what some people feel is the loss of the community aspect of the game. When everyone's cordoned off in mini sections of the game, it's very easy to lose sight of the game as a whole, and I think the last thing an MMO should strive towards, is trying to segregate players from each other to the extreme.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    it leads though to 50 % of playerbase leaving game 2 months after launch .

    by the time 9.1 lands it will be 80-90 % of playerbase gone

    sure raid loggers are happy - happy that game is dying but they can enjoy just raids.

    the only good thing out of it is that WoD fiasco (much smaller then SL ) lead to Legion and BfA

    this means that 10.0 should be casual heaven if it even comes out because activision can decide to pull the plug on wow with so many players gone

    - - - Updated - - -



    same here with my uber casual guild . we are already only extending denathrius hc because gear from raid is pointless with how garbage drop rates are / everyone has 3/4 of gear on 220-226 from GV from m+ - once its dead i bet 3/4 of team will quit till 9.1.
    Uber casual guild, where everyone is 220+ and just farming Hc Denathrius.

    WTF does 'uber casual' even mean in this context?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    We also can notice the :

    "World of Warcraft MAUs grew year-over-year for the sixth consecutive quarter, contributing to overall Blizzard MAUs of 29 million in the fourth quarter."

    One chance at guessing for how many quarters Classic has been released.
    Must be a coincidence.
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  19. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    We also can notice the :

    "World of Warcraft MAUs grew year-over-year for the sixth consecutive quarter, contributing to overall Blizzard MAUs of 29 million in the fourth quarter."

    One chance at guessing for how many quarters Classic has been released.
    Classic helped stem the bleeding a bit. Overall, I'm guessing that Blizz is being very disingenuous with the statement anyways. If you play Classic for a bit and Retail for a bit in the same quarter, you become 2 MAUs.

    2018 - 38, 37, 37, 35 (Q1-Q4)
    2019 - 32, 32, 33, 32 (Q1-Q4)
    2020 - 32, 32, 30, 29 (Q1-Q4)

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by varren View Post
    I think a big problem is Torghast and the Anima Power system both being flops for the most part. Torghast needs some different modes and cosmetic rewards, and Anima Power rewards need to be at least doubled across the board. Spending time on shitty SL flight paths to do a quest for 70 Anima is awful design.

    The endgame meta also needs a shake up. This is essentially Legion 3.0 with the now stale raid/M+/rated PvP trifecta.

    I will say it is still better than BFA, as Covenants are still better than the absolutely terrible Azerite Armor gimmick.
    Prior to Legion it was just the raid/PvP duo.

    3 end gear paths > 2.

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