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  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    They could start by allowing us to do things beyond their set progression systems, let players progress the way they want, not with forced power progression, make the classes whole again out of the gate and stop repackaging our kits so we have to re-earn what we already had in the previous expansion it feels horrible and is a very poor way to design a progressive MMO. Power from gear or a set bonus is fine because it is a bonus to a full kit but your character power should not be locked behind slowly progressive systems and time walls because Blizzard needs to increase its monetary monthly intake.
    I honestly try to think what SL is doing diffrently than other expansions that make it lose it's 'depth'.

    Before Legion raiding was only way to progress your character, there were also side game called PVP with different sets. After Legion you can progress to max available item level through raids, dungeons, PVP.

    What even 'let players progress the way they want' means? If I want progress from fishing, I should get better items from fishing? What else than hardest PVE bosses or hardest PVP opponents should give me best gear? Or do you think doing easy and geting random item level boost was 'progression'?

    What class kits you had re-earn? If anything we get few more spells in endgame.

    'Make classes whole again' is another empty word, I suggest we won't go there.

    SL is time-gated (Season 1 is not timegated in any way for like a month, I remind) as alternative to grinding from Legion/BfA. And it's just for few soulbinds and cosmetics, everything else were released last year already. Like it, don't like, I don't think grinding make any 'depth'.

  2. #962
    The real issue is, as wow goes on. it more and more feels like a job to maintain raiding ability at a mythic level. I put up with it for a few expansions in a row now, but finally SL was so bad I had to ask myself if I was really having fun anymore or just helping to keep the team going.

    Feelsbad

  3. #963
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I mean it's the expansion that finally drove me to say F this lol.
    For me it was BfA and when I saw the stuff for SL I thought it could save the franchise but it clearly did not, logged in maybe 2 times in 2 weeks and that's it. I uninstalled it and I think I am done. But nonetheless I will follow the next races for world first because it's fun but spending money for it? Nah. Now that you can't even buy a month game time but have to sub is a big NO for me. I know I can sub and cancel it but that is not the point. I won't sub for a month to bring them fake sub numbers.

  4. #964
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I mean it's the expansion that finally drove me to say F this lol.
    Yep. Not far off myself... will see what 9.1 brings.

    One thing that's particularly frustrating at the moment is Blizzards total lack of a Roadmap for the expansion systems, namely Lego's. Should I be farming Choreghast weekly for more Ash or will it be reset in 9.1? Will there be a V2.0 Soul Ash to upgrade them? Should I be crafting more in anticipation of equipping multiple Legos throughout the expansion?
    Is Valor being reset for those of us who have nothing to upgrade this Tier? (probably).

    Every expansion since Legion we've had to run on assumptions as to what's happening with various systems in the next season.... just lay out a bloody roadmap Blizzard so we have some idea.

    Besides the above, (which kills alts for me), Covenants are a complete failure (for me). It's not even a Min/Max thing, it's a "Hey his Covenant fixes my class" issue or "This Covenant's ability is a dead button". The divide is so large the "meaningful choice" comes down to Aesthetics Vs Viability...

    Then we have M+
    I don't mind M+ with Guildies and Friends, but like always, it's a case of not enough Tanks. I support M+ as an inclusion of difficult 5 man content but at the same time it killed the queueable PvE Dungeon gameplay which I thoroughly enjoyed in days done by for my Alts.
    How about Making Heroic somewhat relevant again, Make Mythic queueable and squish the Key levels down.
    This way "premades" running Keys keep their loot and their prestige but those who enjoy matchmaking aren't stuck in Blues. Lets be honest, within a few weeks of a season most low keys are irrelevant as Raiders and Key pushers are very quickly doing +10's or higher. The more casual player base get ridiculously frustrated trying to join groups for Keys who check .IO for a +2 and it's killing the game for a large number of players... PvP has the same problem with no solo Queue for rated.

    Anyway, if Heroic and Mythic were queueable and offered slightly better rewards (combined with Valor) the more casual players (or my Alts) can go back to enjoying the old Dungeon systems without spending an hour LFG as a non-meta spec. Meanwhile, Keys could be squished down a bit so that a +10 is more akin to a +15 and everyone happy.

    From my perspective, WOW enjoyed immense popularity in the early days due to it's nostalgia from WC3 and (at the time) it was far more accessible than other MMO's but Blizzard have scaled back that accessibility with their focus on M+ (and Rated PvP) which is killing the game without matchmaking. Players don't want to spend an hour in Oribos LFG when they could instead play any other game and jump in immediately.

    Guilds are great, but there's always those days/times where you log in at an odd time and can't get a guild group going... so you either log off or <shudders> pug. Guilds also suffer content fatigue around now as players take time off for the next season.

    Anyway, this is turning into a Rant, but it's something I strongly believe Blizzard need to address moving forward.

  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    The real issue is, as wow goes on. it more and more feels like a job to maintain raiding ability at a mythic level. I put up with it for a few expansions in a row now, but finally SL was so bad I had to ask myself if I was really having fun anymore or just helping to keep the team going.

    Feelsbad
    Some might call me crazy but mythic isn't fun, 40% of the time is spent listening rl explaining tacts and swearing after another wipe, 15% trying to kill the boss and the remaining 45% looking at your character licking the floor and hoping for a battle ress that will never happen if you're a dps unless the boss is <10%, it really feels like smashing your head against a wall and after 80/90 hits the wall will eventually break and you will get your well deserved 50 AP and 20 gold, this is what happens when you let hazzikostas tune raids for Limit and weakauras/Dbm/bigwigs
    You think you do, but you don't ©
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    Haste will fix it ©

  6. #966
    In my opinion, SL has to offer what all the other expansions had to offer.

    PvP - Raiding - Dungeons.

    It's never been different. M+ is still fun and challenging.
    The raid is fun.
    I don't play PvP but I guess it's been an improvement, at least when we are talking about rewards etc.

    "Open world" has always been completely pointless from TBC onwards to this day.


    Nothing new in WoW.
    It's a working formular and that's about it.

    I'd rather have them drown me in cosmetic rewards, optional spell animations (like glyphs that change the colour/style of your abilities), challenge mode dungeons (on top of M+) that reward players with a new set etc.
    But all of that would be "I did it once and never touch it again" - I don't think it's possible for Blizzard to get me to play more than once or twice a week anymore after the initial rush. I wouldn't know how - at least not with realistic expectations in mind.

    All the fun stuff I usually like is often disliked by the community.
    Grinding Legendaries, grinding Artifact weapons, Warforge/Titanforged gear etc. etc.

    People always look at this shit from a competitive side like the baboons they are. "I don't want this person to have the same gear as me" or "I don't want someone else to be ahead of me".
    Since that mindset never changed, there has been no real content whatsoever once you are at a certain gear level for basically a decade.
    No way to improve your stats.. or to increase your powerlevel, nothing to unlock to make your character stronger after spending some hours grinding something.

    So the only other thing that would engage me are the one-time challenging stuff, but that's something Blizzard won't do because that stuff is not worth it for Blizzard to put money/work into, since it's a one-time thing that can't be re-used to occupy players for X months.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-05 at 09:33 PM.

  7. #967
    Oh boy did this thread not age well

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Some might call me crazy but mythic isn't fun, 40% of the time is spent listening rl explaining tacts and swearing after another wipe, 15% trying to kill the boss and the remaining 45% looking at your character licking the floor and hoping for a battle ress that will never happen if you're a dps unless the boss is <10%, it really feels like smashing your head against a wall and after 80/90 hits the wall will eventually break and you will get your well deserved 50 AP and 20 gold, this is what happens when you let hazzikostas tune raids for Limit and weakauras/Dbm/bigwigs
    to be honest the main problem for the last 3 espansions have been the last 2 bosses of the raids, which were almost always completely overtuned

  8. #968
    Things in WoW just lack longevity.

    One of the biggest draws of MMOs is the sense of deep investment in a character in a game where you know it's likely going to get updated 5, 10, 20 years into the future. Putting all this effort in temporary expansion gimmicks like the Covenants and Soulbinds is completely antithetical to the genre. Garrison, Class Hall, Heart Forge (?), Covenant Sanctum and their respective mission tables and progression systems. Do you know what these have in common? They're fucking dead content when the new expansion releases. All that gear you got? Vendored and forever useless.

    Compare those WoW systems to systems found in other games like Player Housing (PH), the "Stickerbook" and Alternate Advancement (AA) points. I use AA because I first encountered the system in EverQuest but most games have a unique name - for example ESO calls it Champion Points.

    PH usually has a great symbiotic relationship with all other systems in the game. Crafting furniture and items, showing off achievements with a boss head mounted on a wall, extra storage, etc. It's something I constantly add to and update as new content for it comes out. .... And I'm more inclined to do so because everything I put there has been and will be supported as a base, foundational system of the game and not a temporary hamster wheel the devs will later render irrelevant. For a lot of people PH isn't a huge deal but I'd argue you're getting forced into a PH lite system each expansion anyway and wouldn't you rather just have complete customization options. I would.

    The 'borrowed power' systems I think are worst iteration of end game progression I've ever seen in the genre. That would be our Covenant Soulbinds, Heart of Azeroth, Artifacts etc. And they stand in the way of what could be a solid, infinitely supported AA system. Once I saw what the shtick was in Legion and watched them grey out our weapon trees, I didn't care about it in BFA with the Neck and didn't care about it in SL with the Covenant abilities / soulbinds. These aren't permanent systems tied to our characters and unworthy of deeply investing in.

    Compare that to a typical AA system. Games add and update the existing system so your points earned are never lost. Generally they just add more options for you to spend points and increase spending caps. YOU DON'T LOSE ANYTHING EVER. They also smartly mitigate and manage bloat by adding powerful nodes or funnels that cost X points to act as a sponge for more active players. Games handle things differently here but I can say with the other MMOs I play, they're all better than losing everything and having to reclaim whatever you used to like, often in a different form and that's only if those abilities and traits haven't been deleted. ESO CP gets extra bonus points from me because CP progress is shared across Characters. Example if I'm at 500 CP on character A and switch to character B, I can hit 501 etc. And each character can spend all 500+ points individually (it's not a shared pool, just shared progression). Imagine leveling an alt and as soon as you hit cap you're caught up to every other level capped character on your account. BTW you also have a shared bank in that game and can prepare a full set of gear. Got a staff on your warrior but its bound? Drop in shared bank for your mage. Wild. When I look at WoW's system where each character has to do all these grinds individually AND the system goes away in a year or two... it's just insanity and I will never waste a minute doing that stuff.

    Then I look at how games treat items in general. Destiny 2 and ESO come to mind as probably the gold standard. Everything you collect on any character is registered in an account wide "stickerbook" and you can craft these items again RIGHT OUT OF THE UI FOR ANY CHARACTER ON YOUR ACCOUNT. Like a tier set from MoP? Guess what you can use it forever if you want. Imagine in WoW if you could open your appearance tab craft out the Throne of Thunder T15 DK set at your Shadowlands ilevel just because you liked passively procing the Zandalari undead warrior. All new expansions do is offer MORE GEAR OPTIONS. Nothing is dead. Everything I collect feels relevant for soooooo much longer than it does in WoW.

    Add that on top of the fact you do a dungeon run in WoW and generally get 1 or 0 items (can't believe this is even real), when these other games you get 5-10 items per 'dungeon'. I'll stop now but the more I play of other games the more I just look at WoW in disgust in how badly they treat players time. Like literal rats. Yes other games have grinds, shops, you name it but you never get the sense they are nickel and diming every minute of your life in the game to increase activity.

    Anyway, I think this is why people like myself just pop in to see the new content in the first month of an expansion and dip out. It's not an MMO for me it's like revisiting the new DLC for a single player game I've liked for a long time. I have many other issues with WoW but if they don't fix these problems the game isn't going to be worth playing outside of the first expansion month, at least not for me.
    Last edited by ro9ue; 2021-04-05 at 11:29 PM.

  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    <snip>
    Spot on.
    WOW going "Seasonal" and re-inventing the wheel every expansion has destroyed any remaining RPG elements of this game.

    No Ion, Covenants are not a meaningful RPG choice unless you tell me they're going to carry over into the next expansion, and the next, and the next... and I'll have still have my Artifact weapon, and HoA, and various Legendaries acquired over the last 16 years. But no, there will be some great end of expansion "event" that negates anything and my Lego's can sit in the bank collecting dust with the rest of the oranges.

  10. #970
    NoLootLands.

    At the end of the day, raiding is not rewarding enough, and M+ has been an absolute slog all expansion long. Conduits and Soulbinds are entirely uninteresting. Covenants are a fail and a one-time, often not even meaningful choice.

    Their entire plans for any kind of rpg progression this expansion have completely blown up in their face.

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Shadowlands is certainly *Not* climbing the ladder, when its the expansion that lost over 1/2 of the player base, thats just a harsh fact.

    Im not saying that Shadowlands didnt have better ideas than BFA it did, but the execution evidently shows visual evidence that years of up and downhill promises are showing their fatigue.

    Blizz would honestly be better making WoW 2.
    I wonder how many players classic/BC poached from Shadowlands; maybe the numbers are significant enough to notice and adjust future development to attract those players to newer expansions? But even so, it's poaching players from it's own game so there really won't be any significant revenue gain.

    I imagine a WoW 2 would be similar to Grinding Gears approach with PoE2; people are too heavily invested to completely abandon the game, it happened with EQ1/2; sure both games still exist, they both thrive in their own over time (I remember EQ2 competing with World of Warcraft at release)

  12. #972
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    I wonder how many players classic/BC poached from Shadowlands; maybe the numbers are significant enough to notice and adjust future development to attract those players to newer expansions? But even so, it's poaching players from it's own game so there really won't be any significant revenue gain.

    I imagine a WoW 2 would be similar to Grinding Gears approach with PoE2; people are too heavily invested to completely abandon the game, it happened with EQ1/2; sure both games still exist, they both thrive in their own over time (I remember EQ2 competing with World of Warcraft at release)
    I don't think that there is a lot of overlap between Classic (soon to be BC) and retail players. Both games are different enough as to be completely separate entities, even if they bear both the same name. Chances are that retail players don't feel at ease on Classic, and vice-versa.

    And if there ever is a WoW 2, it should be to WoW 1 what the original WoW was to EQ, i.e. a game with a much more casual friendly approach, a game that isn't designed to cater to the top 5% of hardcore players but to the rest. And if they want WoW 2 to be another hardcore paradise, which they are entitled to, at least make it clear from the very beginning, much like GGG did when PoE was still in beta.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    I wonder how many players classic/BC poached from Shadowlands; maybe the numbers are significant enough to notice and adjust future development to attract those players to newer expansions? But even so, it's poaching players from it's own game so there really won't be any significant revenue gain.

    I imagine a WoW 2 would be similar to Grinding Gears approach with PoE2; people are too heavily invested to completely abandon the game, it happened with EQ1/2; sure both games still exist, they both thrive in their own over time (I remember EQ2 competing with World of Warcraft at release)
    Yeah, I personally don't think true sequels work well for MMOs. It was a terrible decision for EverQuest. It was terrible decision for Destiny.

  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    I mentioned this months ago. The game and forum have been dead since December.

    But ofc, retards always say "People who enjoys SL is in the game, only whiners and haters are on the forum."

    LOL
    One of the interesting signs of oncoming issues is the collapse of casual 'moaning' threads on the main forum. In early-mid january the threads aggrieved by the systems of current wow were at an absolute crescendo. Two months later, obviously theres still all kinds of complaining, but they seem to have dropped off almost completely. I just had another lookie, all threads over 200 or so replies are basically just your mechagnome appreciation style threads, you marry/divorce/eat the player above you..., cultural (any other metalheads/can we have more representation?), wow community (what about that bellular dude?). The complaining threads are pretty much almost exclusively about reward stinginess and the like (ie. people still doing the grind and apparently still under the misconception that its a design oversight).

    Its like the 'casual problem' has taken care of itself exactly like casual players predicted it would back in late december - january. Still, one more week until the ptr drops and perhaps the hype will pull them back in.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-06 at 12:59 AM.

  15. #975
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    This. Blizzard may have SL more or less "fixed" by 9.3 (assuming that there will actually be 9.3, that is), but it will be too little, too late.

    So I might return for 10.0, if they manage to come with something that isn't yet another version of borrowed power (inb4 tier sets rofl), and preferably with an at least mildly interesting story.
    I doubt there will be 9.3. Unless by some miracle Bobby and his top suits let Blizzard delay the next expansion, 10.0 needs to be out in 2022. With how delayed 9.1 is, there is barely time left for 9.2, much less for 9.3.

  16. #976
    It's the expansion I have played the least by far and I have played since BC.

    Strong start but when the honeymoon phace was over you really see how shallow it is.

    Plus the writing is weak as fuck and only gets worse and that's pretty important for me to keep me engaged.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well I still have a glimmer of hope they will improve because as of now the only fun thing imo is doing old content for mounts and whatnot.
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2021-04-06 at 09:32 AM.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  17. #977
    They finally removed titanforging and AP but managed to bring back WoD style of content drought. Also the aoe cap and coventant rules can go die a painful death.

  18. #978
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Shadowlands is certainly *Not* climbing the ladder, when its the expansion that lost over 1/2 of the player base, thats just a harsh fact.
    ive seen that article, and it literaly said after half of player leaving we are BACK TO PRE EXPANSION NUMBERS
    this happens every expansion (and in smaller amplitude patch) are people realy not able to see the pattern after over a decade?! really?!

  19. #979
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Spot on.
    WOW going "Seasonal" and re-inventing the wheel every expansion has destroyed any remaining RPG elements of this game.

    No Ion, Covenants are not a meaningful RPG choice unless you tell me they're going to carry over into the next expansion, and the next, and the next... and I'll have still have my Artifact weapon, and HoA, and various Legendaries acquired over the last 16 years. But no, there will be some great end of expansion "event" that negates anything and my Lego's can sit in the bank collecting dust with the rest of the oranges.
    If only we had access to alternative universe...

    I would love to hear your gasps over:
    - 3 more talent rows and 3-4 more spells in rotation
    - having to farm Artifact Power for weapon
    - having to pick right relics
    - having to pick good traits for Netherlight Crucible
    - having to farm artifact necklace
    - pick right traits on armor, of course
    - grind and pick right essence
    - pick optimal corruption
    - legendary questlines from WoD/MoP
    - SL campaign/other stuff

    ALTS WOULD BE SO MUCH FUN.

    Dude, currently all you have to do is (max) hour of Torghast weekly for 5 weeks, campaign and rest are just gear drops. STILL we have people that call it 'alt unfriendly'.

  20. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    What I don't get is that you made your account here (supposedly) 5 years after you quit the game and have made 4 posts a day everyday since. You must REALLY enjoy the conversations here...
    some people just cant help themselves and have to keep shitting on something trying to make everyone else as miserable as they are...

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