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  1. #1381
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    When BFA was current everyone whined about the endless grind.
    And then went ahead and did it anyway. Why would you change this design at the risk of alienating everybody else ?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1382
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And then went ahead and did it anyway. Why would you change this design at the risk of alienating everybody else ?
    Thats the thing, it's a game, nothing is ever mandatory. All that whining about something being "mandatory" or "alt unfriendly" is just making game terrible. Because the only way to do that is to literally remove gear and/or make character progression extremely boring. And designing a game with that in mind leads to a downfall. Its not overwatch where you can hotswap champs inside match.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  3. #1383
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And then went ahead and did it anyway. Why would you change this design at the risk of alienating everybody else ?
    It isn't working from the looks of the player loss (admittedly from third party sources).

    It is weird to see developers talking about and using loot box and weekly rewards to retain players rather then make compelling gameplay that stands on its own.

    Its fucking bizarre to see players talk about it like its a positive. TBC is a superior progression system to live. They are being out done by themselves from a decade ago. I am not talking about sub numbers before we get side tracked into a tbc vs a retail chat but purely from a design point of view. People care more about their character, repuation, and progression path in tbc then they do on live. On live there is almost a built in apathy players have when looking at all the time locks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Thats the thing, it's a game, nothing is ever mandatory. All that whining about something being "mandatory" or "alt unfriendly" is just making game terrible. Because the only way to do that is to literally remove gear and/or make character progression extremely boring. And designing a game with that in mind leads to a downfall. Its not overwatch where you can hotswap champs inside match.
    I think when you just flat out ignore that some people enjoy a hard mode in a game and hand wave away the issues they bring up because you don't play the harder modes you create problems.

    Raiders never gave a shit about the community until the community forced them to. Rated pvpers used to kinda care about raiding due to bis pieces coming from it but trying to mesh players together with garbage game design like torghast,ap,and conduits just makes each group miserable.

  4. #1384
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I think when you just flat out ignore that some people enjoy a hard mode in a game and hand wave away the issues they bring up because you don't play the harder modes you create problems.

    Raiders never gave a shit about the community until the community forced them to. Rated pvpers used to kinda care about raiding due to bis pieces coming from it but trying to mesh players together with garbage game design like torghast,ap,and conduits just makes each group miserable.
    You missed the point as usual, I played hardest mode since MoP. There is nothing mandatory, nothing is forced, period. If you have issues with self control you go to doctor, not force game devs to cater to your issues.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  5. #1385
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You missed the point as usual, I played hardest mode since MoP. There is nothing mandatory, nothing is forced, period. If you have issues with self control you go to doctor, not force game devs to cater to your issues.
    Sure lad I completely believe you crushed sire with your what... 195 leggo and 12 renowned?

    If you have to lie in your rebuttal you really havent made one.

  6. #1386
    Seasonal content does not work in WoW. it, along with talent tree's and multiple levels of each item in the game, have contributed to turning WoW from a game where you climbed the ladder of each expansion to reach the top.... to D3 wearing WoW's skin complete with seasonal content and a focus on cosmetics. Gear has no value, no permanence, etc..

    this shows up even more when playing a game like classic wow or classic TBC where gear has legit value and weight to it. I'd rather work harder to achieve a piece of gear that has value and feels like an RPG, than d3 inspired throw all the gear at you asap cuz next season you'll be farming it all over again. It's the design of a mobile game, or an ARPG and does NOT fit into the mold of an MMORPG.

    We all overlooked this in legion because Legion was the best of the modern expacs by far, and had the best pace of any expac in terms of content release. It wasn't until BFA/SL where this Diabloification of WoW really became complete.

    Retail WoW almost feels like a version of WoW designed for/by people who hate old WoW, and its why so many fans of the older systems of WoW have thrown up their hands and walked away.

    When there's no more RPG left, the gear is valueless and seasonal with like 4-6 different versions available per item, and your character never gets permanent new skills, no new talents, no findable quest items that unlock new abilities for your class, no unique items of value..... is it really an RPG anymore?

    What we have damn sure isn't WoW in anything but name alone. Legion was the last hurrah of the older 2nd gen WoW team. Ion and his 3rd gen team took over during early Legion (after the content was done) and started working on BFA and it's clear to anyone with eyes that Ion and his team are NOT the right team for WoW. the damage they've done since inheriting the game during Legion cannot be overstated, and will forever tarnish WoW even if they did manage to turn the ship around... which this team won't. WoW won't be turned around without bringing in a team of OLD mmorpg/MUD veterans to completely redesign the game in a classic+ mentality, cuz Ion and them are turning it into a mobile game a bit more each patch

  7. #1387
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Seasonal content does not work in WoW. it, along with talent tree's and multiple levels of each item in the game, have contributed to turning WoW from a game where you climbed the ladder of each expansion to reach the top.... to D3 wearing WoW's skin complete with seasonal content and a focus on cosmetics. Gear has no value, no permanence, etc..

    this shows up even more when playing a game like classic wow or classic TBC where gear has legit value and weight to it. I'd rather work harder to achieve a piece of gear that has value and feels like an RPG, than d3 inspired throw all the gear at you asap cuz next season you'll be farming it all over again. It's the design of a mobile game, or an ARPG and does NOT fit into the mold of an MMORPG.

    We all overlooked this in legion because Legion was the best of the modern expacs by far, and had the best pace of any expac in terms of content release. It wasn't until BFA/SL where this Diabloification of WoW really became complete.

    Retail WoW almost feels like a version of WoW designed for/by people who hate old WoW, and its why so many fans of the older systems of WoW have thrown up their hands and walked away.

    When there's no more RPG left, the gear is valueless and seasonal with like 4-6 different versions available per item, and your character never gets permanent new skills, no new talents, no findable quest items that unlock new abilities for your class, no unique items of value..... is it really an RPG anymore?

    What we have damn sure isn't WoW in anything but name alone. Legion was the last hurrah of the older 2nd gen WoW team. Ion and his 3rd gen team took over during early Legion (after the content was done) and started working on BFA and it's clear to anyone with eyes that Ion and his team are NOT the right team for WoW. the damage they've done since inheriting the game during Legion cannot be overstated, and will forever tarnish WoW even if they did manage to turn the ship around... which this team won't. WoW won't be turned around without bringing in a team of OLD mmorpg/MUD veterans to completely redesign the game in a classic+ mentality, cuz Ion and them are turning it into a mobile game a bit more each patch
    I mean other then the new skills/talents “unless you want to count AW/azerite” your describing every wow expan post wrath and the last tier of wrath.

    Wrath+ had 4 different version of the same items with the split in 10/25 gear and normal/heroic, this gear was seasonal with no need to go back to the previous tiers as every patch had catch up at this point and baring legendarys all old patch raid gear was out
    Of date.

    Findable quest items to unlock ability's stopped being a thing in wrath unless you want to count things like hunter taming books but those are still a thing in SL and Bfa.

    Unique items of value haven’t gone any where every legion-SL still have special trinkets items with procs and smaller sets.

    If these are the points your using to measure it being an RPG then wow either stopped being one after icc or it’s still holding on to 3/5 (arguably 4) points.

  8. #1388
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I mean other then the new skills/talents “unless you want to count AW/azerite” your describing every wow expan post wrath and the last tier of wrath.

    Wrath+ had 4 different version of the same items with the split in 10/25 gear and normal/heroic, this gear was seasonal with no need to go back to the previous tiers as every patch had catch up at this point and baring legendarys all old patch raid gear was out
    Of date.

    Findable quest items to unlock ability's stopped being a thing in wrath unless you want to count things like hunter taming books but those are still a thing in SL and Bfa.

    Unique items of value haven’t gone any where every legion-SL still have special trinkets items with procs and smaller sets.

    If these are the points your using to measure it being an RPG then wow either stopped being one after icc or it’s still holding on to 3/5 (arguably 4) points.
    I agree that it started in wotlk somewhat but it didn’t become as bad until legion. When legion came out it went full Diablo seasonal content mode and no one minded with legion cuz content came out so fast and furious that they maintained a great pace. The best Blizz has ever done actually

    But even in wotlk you didn’t have to refarm heroic dungeons for the same gear you got last season but now higher ilvl!

    Talent trees are ripped out of d3 vs older WoW trees, and even in wotlk classes got new and permanent abilities.

    They’ve stripped WoW of all the elements of an rpg, of haves and have nots, of really rare and Op gear. Gear to aspire to achieve. Retail now is all about mounts as a reward and mounts aren’t a reward when there’s 2500 of them

  9. #1389
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I agree that it started in wotlk somewhat but it didn’t become as bad until legion. When legion came out it went full Diablo seasonal content mode and no one minded with legion cuz content came out so fast and furious that they maintained a great pace. The best Blizz has ever done actually

    But even in wotlk you didn’t have to refarm heroic dungeons for the same gear you got last season but now higher ilvl!

    Talent trees are ripped out of d3 vs older WoW trees, and even in wotlk classes got new and permanent abilities.

    They’ve stripped WoW of all the elements of an rpg, of haves and have nots, of really rare and Op gear. Gear to aspire to achieve. Retail now is all about mounts as a reward and mounts aren’t a reward when there’s 2500 of them
    No you didn’t need to run heroics for gear they were useless in that regard but it’s not like you wouldn’t refarm old dungeons as you’d still want points/tokens from them to buy vender gear and if not that they just became dead content you had no reason to go back to. That’s of course ignoring that going back to old areas for facing stronger enemy’s and getting better gear is kinda common in RPG’s, though not in wow pre legion.

    The talent trees also don’t really function like Diablo at all the UI is similar I guess but Diablo doesn’t have talents the same way wow does as it has no core ability’s. But ignoring all that.

    The talent change happened in cata so that’s really not a post legion thing. You could also argue that we got new permanent ability’s in bfa and SL as abunch of classes had there AB rolled into there core kit or other added ability’s in SL, it of course you could also say it only counts if there new ability’s that expan.

  10. #1390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I mean other then the new skills/talents “unless you want to count AW/azerite” your describing every wow expan post wrath and the last tier of wrath.

    Wrath+ had 4 different version of the same items with the split in 10/25 gear and normal/heroic, this gear was seasonal with no need to go back to the previous tiers as every patch had catch up at this point and baring legendarys all old patch raid gear was out
    Of date.

    Findable quest items to unlock ability's stopped being a thing in wrath unless you want to count things like hunter taming books but those are still a thing in SL and Bfa.

    Unique items of value haven’t gone any where every legion-SL still have special trinkets items with procs and smaller sets.

    If these are the points your using to measure it being an RPG then wow either stopped being one after icc or it’s still holding on to 3/5 (arguably 4) points.
    the part i bolded is only true after the introduction 3.2 and TOGC, furthermore the way stat distributions worked you actually needed some of the 245 heroic 10 man gear on some classes over the 258 heroic 25 man gear to hit specific stat breakpoints for hit rating/expertise etc, meaning that those items had tangible value, and for caster dps in TOGC the best in slot chest piece for the entire tier was a 245 ilvl robe crafted by tailors, so if you got lucky and got the recipe drop in your first clear and got the mats needed to make it, you literally never replaced that slot until t10.

    the underline portion is just straight up bullshit, first off for arcane mages into ICC the BiS trinket setup was the ilvl 200 trinket from naxx 10 OR the trial of the crusader heroic dungeon trinket (functionally the same item just 2 different sources for it), and the heroic 25 anub'arak trinket from TOGC, nothing in ICC was better for arcane mage at the time, and even the 1 trinket halion dropped wasn't great and was worse in terms of dps parse compared to an entry level trinket from the start of the expansion, another example of this was the deaths verdict trinket from TOGC for DK's (warriors replaced it with stuff when ICC came out but DK's kept using it well into ICC and even halion), healers used the 25 hardmode algalon trinket for a long time into ICC until they got a replacement for that and the other slot was taken by the TOGC 25hc trinket from faction champs, i could give other examples but this should suffice, unless you were playing in a super casual guild and not really doing much in raids then sure, you probably had a character decked out in mostly sub optimal badge gear, but in top end raiding terms, the older raid tier items were well used long past their supposed 'shelf life' as you say they were.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  11. #1391
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Yeah this has been a thing since cataclysm really but there comes a point when the grass actually IS greener on the other side. I don't think we're far from where WoW isn't the number one MMORPG anymore.
    At this point we're just waiting for a huge chunk of the playerbase to kick the habit and realize that they deserve better. When that happens Blizzard could be in serious trouble, they can't survive on the hardcore community alone.
    Yeah, there's always been doomsayers. However, as much as I don't care for Asmon... I agree with his statement "this feels different" and I think we're rapidly approaching the time where Blizzard is going to cross a point of no return where they're going to lose a lot of players for good. I personally think it'll be 10.0 and that expansion that determines what happens with this burned out and frustrated players. Especially as their core playerbase ages. I've been playing for 14 years, I'm raising two children and working a full time job along with being married, taking care of family around me, and nurturing other hobbies. I do not have time to be jerked around with half-baked expansions, if that's how Blizzard is going to be then I'll just fuck right off to another game where the game is respectful of my time.

  12. #1392
    "Honeymoon phase" is nothing new.

    This is why you wait a week or two before immediately declaring something to be the greatest ever. It's a good rule to follow for pretty much everything, not just WoW expansions.

  13. #1393
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    the part i bolded is only true after the introduction 3.2 and TOGC, furthermore the way stat distributions worked you actually needed some of the 245 heroic 10 man gear on some classes over the 258 heroic 25 man gear to hit specific stat breakpoints for hit rating/expertise etc, meaning that those items had tangible value, and for caster dps in TOGC the best in slot chest piece for the entire tier was a 245 ilvl robe crafted by tailors, so if you got lucky and got the recipe drop in your first clear and got the mats needed to make it, you literally never replaced that slot until t10.

    the underline portion is just straight up bullshit, first off for arcane mages into ICC the BiS trinket setup was the ilvl 200 trinket from naxx 10 OR the trial of the crusader heroic dungeon trinket (functionally the same item just 2 different sources for it), and the heroic 25 anub'arak trinket from TOGC, nothing in ICC was better for arcane mage at the time, and even the 1 trinket halion dropped wasn't great and was worse in terms of dps parse compared to an entry level trinket from the start of the expansion, another example of this was the deaths verdict trinket from TOGC for DK's (warriors replaced it with stuff when ICC came out but DK's kept using it well into ICC and even halion), healers used the 25 hardmode algalon trinket for a long time into ICC until they got a replacement for that and the other slot was taken by the TOGC 25hc trinket from faction champs, i could give other examples but this should suffice, unless you were playing in a super casual guild and not really doing much in raids then sure, you probably had a character decked out in mostly sub optimal badge gear, but in top end raiding terms, the older raid tier items were well used long past their supposed 'shelf life' as you say they were.
    I had actually forgot about TOC, but any way as I said right above the bolded part it started in the *second* last tier of wrath.

    As for min maxing stuff I can’t say I remember any one ever going back to older raids for any of this stuff but sure let’s assume it’s true for wrath that would just move the buck to cata assuming there’s no post legion raid items min makers went back for.

  14. #1394
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You missed the point as usual, I played hardest mode since MoP. There is nothing mandatory, nothing is forced, period. If you have issues with self control you go to doctor, not force game devs to cater to your issues.
    Thats really what it is man. Like the game can't afford to offer anybody else anything better because the rest of the game has to been balanced around its most difficult content. Even if you accept the argument that its "forced", it really jjust shows you where the priorities are.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1395
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I had actually forgot about TOC, but any way as I said right above the bolded part it started in the *second* last tier of wrath.

    As for min maxing stuff I can’t say I remember any one ever going back to older raids for any of this stuff but sure let’s assume it’s true for wrath that would just move the buck to cata assuming there’s no post legion raid items min makers went back for.
    It was definitely true in WOTLK. the BiS list is all over the place both in terms of raid tiers, and size (10-25). It was the beginning of what they were thinking of doing, but they hadn't achieved it yet. WOTLK still had enough of the older WoW DNA in it to make it feel like WoW. SL doesn't feel like WOW, it's different and this time is different.

    There's always been doomsayers in the community for every little thing, but like someone else said, this is probably the first time i've taken a step back and wondered "Has blizz lost it forever?" and i begin to doubt if i'll ever return to retail WoW barring an entirely new design team, and a more old school philosophy of the game.

    there's 3 era's of WoW....

    Vanilla-WOTLK
    CATA-WOD
    Legion-Now

    three very different era's of wow with their own distinct identity, and ironically it makes up with the design teams of WoW. there have been 3 major design teams of WoW... the original team basically quit after WOTLK launched. the second team was replaced/quit right after Legion launched (was their final huzzah) and now the current team is the third generation of WoW devs, and by far, are the worst.

  16. #1396
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    It was definitely true in WOTLK. the BiS list is all over the place both in terms of raid tiers, and size (10-25). It was the beginning of what they were thinking of doing, but they hadn't achieved it yet. WOTLK still had enough of the older WoW DNA in it to make it feel like WoW. SL doesn't feel like WOW, it's different and this time is different.
    so then what makes up the wow DNA that make cata-Wod and rpg but not post legion?


    there's 3 era's of WoW....

    Vanilla-WOTLK
    CATA-WOD
    Legion-Now

    three very different era's of wow with their own distinct identity, and ironically it makes up with the design teams of WoW. there have been 3 major design teams of WoW... the original team basically quit after WOTLK launched. the second team was replaced/quit right after Legion launched (was their final huzzah) and now the current team is the third generation of WoW devs, and by far, are the worst.
    This is also blatantly false here is the number of people who worked on wrath and then post wrath expans.

    World of WarCraft: Wrath of the Lich King Credits
    2856 people (2552 developers, 304 thanks)
    World of WarCraft: The Burning Crusade, a group of 625 people

    World of WarCraft: Cataclysm, a group of 1863 people

    World of WarCraft: Warlords of Draenor, a group of 1022 people

    World of WarCraft: Legion, a group of 1032 people

    World of WarCraft: Battle for Azeroth, a group of 885 people
    https://www.mobygames.com/game/windo...h-king/credits

    And if your thinking Mabye all the people who worked on tbc-wrath left and that’s why it’s not a 1-1 cross over then nope half of the people who worked on tbc went all the way to BFA.
    World of WarCraft: The Burning Crusade Credits
    942 people (793 developers, 149 thanks)
    World of WarCraft: Battle for Azeroth, a group of 318 people
    https://www.mobygames.com/game/windo...rusade/credits

  17. #1397
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    so then what makes up the wow DNA that make cata-Wod and rpg but not post legion?




    This is also blatantly false here is the number of people who worked on wrath and then post wrath expans.




    https://www.mobygames.com/game/windo...h-king/credits

    And if your thinking Mabye all the people who worked on tbc-wrath left and that’s why it’s not a 1-1 cross over then nope half of the people who worked on tbc went all the way to BFA.



    https://www.mobygames.com/game/windo...rusade/credits
    It's not about who the subordinates were but who the game directors were.

    Vanilla-wotlk was Kaplan and Brack I believe?
    Cata-wod was Chilton
    Legion and onwards was Ion

    These are the three eras and they feel distinctly different due to who the man on the top was.

  18. #1398
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    It's not about who the subordinates were but who the game directors were.

    Vanilla-wotlk was Kaplan and Brack I believe?
    Cata-wod was Chilton
    Legion and onwards was Ion

    These are the three eras and they feel distinctly different due to who the man on the top was.
    Nope, classic was Robert Pardo, Allen Adham, tbc was Tom Chilton, Jeffrey Kaplan, Robert Pardo, then wrath was just chilton/Kaplan and then just chilton Till legion then ion from bfa onwards.

    So if you want to put all the weight on one person it would just be the chilton era as he was a lead since tbc and the ion one starting in bfa and I suppose the pardo/adham era just for classic. but putting all the weight on one person is super reductive.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-06-03 at 04:27 PM.

  19. #1399
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    judging by the amount of characters I've been seeing out in Mechagon, Argus, and Nazjatar, SL is kind of dead. Even the anima grinding required for all the covenant lvling has fallen off drastically, based on the few characters I see out and about in the current zones.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  20. #1400
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Well, everything from Ion & co. seems to indicate that they think differently. Also, some hardcore folks, for what I see in these very boards, seem to truly believe that the game could do just fine even if its population was reduced to a tiny number of high end raiders.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Idk what forums you were reading, but people complained much more often about the massive pruning inflicted to most classes/specs after losing all the Legion perks. Another major reason for complaints was early BfA Azerite armour, which was honestly dumb and it was only fixed by 8.1.5... The "endless grind" was far below on the QQ list - except if you were in a top 100 guild or so, in which case, yes, you had to farm Azerite until you were blue in the face.
    Nah man the AP grind was a complaint I saw all the time. And one of the few I agreed with. The grind was moronic.

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