1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Well, I've spent some time on ESO already, and I can safely say that it's well worth a try unless you are a hardcore raider.
    I tried ESO but sadly the combat is absolute shite. Feels like a very foul compromise between traditional tab target and Elder Scrolls combat essentially using the worst aspects of both without any of the fun bits. It's emblematic of the general design of the game. Everything feels half-assed with not an inch of originality or vision in it. It's like this game was designed by bugmen in labcoats.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    what exactly do you have to grind to "keep up"? bcs apart of renown (which wasnt even possible to grind at first) i cant think of anything thats not optional...
    Torghast. /10
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  3. #1443
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Have you just comply ignored the whole secret thing since legion? The game literally has more of the things you listed now then it did in tbc.
    Legion was much better about offering more to do for non raiders. In particular the artifact weapon was very fleshed out both in terms of alternate advancement but also cosmetics. Of course in the endless quest to cater to a fraction of the population who only wants to raid and do nothing else we got severely gutted versions of that in Sl.


    The game really just can't in general offer nice things to other people because it always has to be balanced against the needs and demands of the raiding community. People then have the gal to state its because the game is casualized so much but the reality is its not. Its taken the existing model of end game which had virtually no appeal and tried to segment and batstardize it to draw folks into it so they could maintain the emphasis on it. That aint casual. Thats just begrudging.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-06-05 at 06:39 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1444
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The game really just can't in general offer nice things to other people because it always has to be balanced against the needs and demands of the raiding community.
    It also feels like when the budget screws are tightened, the casuals get abandoned first. The devs' true colors are shining through. I think it's clear the game is heading toward being a lobby game where there isn't any world at all. We'll be able to read books for that, I suppose.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  5. #1445
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It also feels like when the budget screws are tightened, the casuals get abandoned first. The devs' true colors are shining through. I think it's clear the game is heading toward being a lobby game where there isn't any world at all. We'll be able to read books for that, I suppose.
    I kinda wonder about that. Like let's say the budget really does get much tighter and they had to make some really hard cuts what would they decide to get rid of? They've managed to add quite a bit replayability to instanced content so they get alot of use out of it. I don't know if the circumstances are quite dire where they have to throw world content down the drain but would they? It's obvious where their priorities are but thats kinda brazen even for ion hazikostas
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It also feels like when the budget screws are tightened, the casuals get abandoned first. The devs' true colors are shining through. I think it's clear the game is heading toward being a lobby game where there isn't any world at all. We'll be able to read books for that, I suppose.
    I mean even the mediocre fantasy shlock that Blizzard publishes is usually more entertaining to read than the quest text for the collect 5 angel-bear arses. Also cheaper, since you get all of it in one book instead of waiting 2 months for all the quests to unlock .

    Realistically though I think the trend is actually the opposite. Their dev team tries to entirely defend their existence by putting alot into the leveling experience and the raids (that's where practically all of the art output goes), to the point that everything else gets neglected. Even though it's bizarre since the leveling experience and the open world endgame content are aimed at the same people.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2021-06-05 at 07:40 PM.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
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  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The game really just can't in general offer nice things to other people because it always has to be balanced against the needs and demands of the raiding community.
    I've recently come to the opinion that the only thing wrong with this quote is its conclusion, that it's for the benefit of the raiding community. I think now that the focus is to the benefit of the whales, ie The people buying many tokens with cash to purchase both BoE's and Carries. I feel like this focus to some degree benefits the raiding community more than casual because being competitive motivates the whales to a greater degree than banksitting, but Blizzard has to keep some degree of both raiders and casuals to keep the whales invested. And this is why raidloggers feel the game is catered to casuals and casuals feel the game is catered to raidloggers, when really neither are being "catered" to. Blizzard is doing just enough to keep just enough of each to satisfy the 20% that really feeds the game's coffers.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I kinda wonder about that. Like let's say the budget really does get much tighter and they had to make some really hard cuts what would they decide to get rid of? They've managed to add quite a bit replayability to instanced content so they get alot of use out of it. I don't know if the circumstances are quite dire where they have to throw world content down the drain but would they? It's obvious where their priorities are but thats kinda brazen even for ion hazikostas
    What world content?

    World bosses that fall over to the point any dps class with sustain can brute force solo them by the end of the expansion? World quests so banal they might as well describe themselves as kill X, click X?

  9. #1449
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    What world content?

    World bosses that fall over to the point any dps class with sustain can brute force solo them by the end of the expansion? World quests so banal they might as well describe themselves as kill X, click X?
    I imagine that if you asked Hazikostas et all off the record they would agree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I've recently come to the opinion that the only thing wrong with this quote is its conclusion, that it's for the benefit of the raiding community. I think now that the focus is to the benefit of the whales, ie The people buying many tokens with cash to purchase both BoE's and Carries. I feel like this focus to some degree benefits the raiding community more than casual because being competitive motivates the whales to a greater degree than banksitting, but Blizzard has to keep some degree of both raiders and casuals to keep the whales invested. And this is why raidloggers feel the game is catered to casuals and casuals feel the game is catered to raidloggers, when really neither are being "catered" to. Blizzard is doing just enough to keep just enough of each to satisfy the 20% that really feeds the game's coffers.
    You'd think that if it really was all just an exercise in making money and not a function of misguided and/or incompetent developers they would simple make a game with the broadest appeal possible. While I think theirs some truth to what you say here they could also make money and conceivable lots more money by maintaining their subscriber base...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #1450
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You'd think that if it really was all just an exercise in making money and not a function of misguided and/or incompetent developers they would simple make a game with the broadest appeal possible. While I think theirs some truth to what you say here they could also make money and conceivable lots more money by maintaining their subscriber base...
    Like I said, this is a recent epiphany for me after being exposed to the concepts in more depth so I may be off-base, but from what I understand the Pareto Principle makes it clear that 80% of the income a game makes will come from 20% of the playerbase. And that then goes even further that 80% of THAT income comes from a further 20% of THAT, smaller, playerbase. Down to the point where you realize about 50% of ALL game income comes from something like 0.15% of the total playerbase (that figure may be misremembered, but I'm fairly certain it's accurate.) If WoW did not have tokens and only had the subscription this would not be true, but because it does contain a method of throwing cash at the game to progress I can only imagine this principle is in effect. This is highlighted by the fact that as the playerbase dwindles, which we know it has, the games income seems to be holding steady or even, at times, increasing.

    The only real purpose for the majority of non-whale subscribers is to provide content FOR the whales They need casuals to lord it over and beat in PvP and they need hardcores to carry them to their desired goals (be it gear, cosmetics, whatnot). But those players only count insomuch as they serve the whales needs and it's likely that the game could shed a not-insignificant number of them and still keep the whales happy and spending.

    Again, I don't think this would be true of WoW were it not for the Token ... but ever since the token was introduced the game design has ever moved towards a system that benefits whale players, IMO.

    This video is a good primer on the concept and very recent:

    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  11. #1451
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Like I said, this is a recent epiphany for me after being exposed to the concepts in more depth so I may be off-base, but from what I understand the Pareto Principle makes it clear that 80% of the income a game makes will come from 20% of the playerbase. And that then goes even further that 80% of THAT income comes from a further 20% of THAT, smaller, playerbase. Down to the point where you realize about 50% of ALL game income comes from something like 0.15% of the total playerbase (that figure may be misremembered, but I'm fairly certain it's accurate.) If WoW did not have tokens and only had the subscription this would not be true, but because it does contain a method of throwing cash at the game to progress I can only imagine this principle is in effect. This is highlighted by the fact that as the playerbase dwindles, which we know it has, the games income seems to be holding steady or even, at times, increasing.

    The only real purpose for the majority of non-whale subscribers is to provide content FOR the whales They need casuals to lord it over and beat in PvP and they need hardcores to carry them to their desired goals (be it gear, cosmetics, whatnot). But those players only count insomuch as they serve the whales needs and it's likely that the game could shed a not-insignificant number of them and still keep the whales happy and spending.

    Again, I don't think this would be true of WoW were it not for the Token ... but ever since the token was introduced the game design has ever moved towards a system that benefits whale players, IMO.

    This video is a good primer on the concept and very recent:

    yes in Blizzards recently earning reports you can even see the player engagement and active users dropping by millions across all their different games, despite that their revenue is increasing by a lot, as the whales is spending more and more money

    https://www.ign.com/articles/blizzar...y-active-users

  12. #1452
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apelsinjuice View Post
    yes in Blizzards recently earning reports you can even see the player engagement and active users dropping by millions across all their different games, despite that their revenue is increasing by a lot, as the whales is spending more and more money

    https://www.ign.com/articles/blizzar...y-active-users
    there's no real reason to think that's the case in terms of wow as your own link says.

    "A particularly high number of new players" have joined the MMO lately, apparently ushered into the game by Blizzard's push to make the WoW onboarding experience easier.
    It quite possible that any MAU losses are for there other games while wow is doing fine with an influx of new players.

  13. #1453
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I didn't say they weren't failing other areas too, my dude. The world experience is dreadful. When is the last time the world felt like a world? You feel it in classic/tbc but in retail it's non existent.
    Blizz needs to rebuild server communities again. You achieve things that are important on your server, get you recognized on your server. All the cross-realm stuff hurts the game pretty badly. I don't know why they don't do that.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  14. #1454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I kinda wonder about that. Like let's say the budget really does get much tighter and they had to make some really hard cuts what would they decide to get rid of? They've managed to add quite a bit replayability to instanced content so they get alot of use out of it. I don't know if the circumstances are quite dire where they have to throw world content down the drain but would they? It's obvious where their priorities are but thats kinda brazen even for ion hazikostas
    Really, the one thing WOW has going for it is raids and dungeons. Those have always been top notch. The problem is that blizzard realized this, and rather than making more and better casual content for people who don't like to non-life hard raid content, blizzard has mostly gutted a lot of the quality out of raids. Not that hard content does not exist, but the specialness is gone. Do I know why? Not really, but raids did not feel satisfying when I quit.

    FFXIV meanwhile gave me a ton of casual content to do, massive piles of cool things that I could accomplish by putting casual time into them. And once I was ready to try raiding, it drew me in. Say what you will about ffxiv raiding, but it certainly feels more fulfilling and rewarding than WOW raiding has since wotlk, at least to me. FFXIV nurtures all aspects of the community without trying to force players to take part in activities they don't want to. It's an immensely pleasurable, rewarding, freeing, and satisfying experience.

    The last couple of weeks have been hard on WOW. We're seeing content creators already burning out on WOW and swapping to FFXIV... and xiv is in its pre expansion content drought! Not that that will matter to new players. They have thousands and thousands of hours of casual, hardcore, and ultra no life hardcore content to make their way through.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Blizz needs to rebuild server communities again. You achieve things that are important on your server, get you recognized on your server. All the cross-realm stuff hurts the game pretty badly. I don't know why they don't do that.
    It’s one of those genies that, once out of the bottle, can’t be put back in sadly.

    Just another way this game has become an arpg more than an rpg.

    Quick ques and in/out content matters more than server communities

    If we’re honest, we can admit they should have just merged all NA servers into a mega server such as ESO does, or at least 2-4 mega servers and remove cross realm. They wouldn’t do that because they directly profit off the bloated server design and transfers on and off

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    It’s one of those genies that, once out of the bottle, can’t be put back in sadly.

    Just another way this game has become an arpg more than an rpg.

    Quick ques and in/out content matters more than server communities

    If we’re honest, we can admit they should have just merged all NA servers into a mega server such as ESO does, or at least 2-4 mega servers and remove cross realm. They wouldn’t do that because they directly profit off the bloated server design and transfers on and off
    And like a genie, doesn't really exist. Just like you don't become friends with people that happen to ride the bus at same hours you do, when going to work.

    Social interactions and communities exist at guilds level similar to your workplace where you actually have opportunities to talk to others and make friends.

    In short, it doesn't make game any better, at best it just limits how many friends you can make, at worst pushes people to buy realm transfers once server dies.

    It means absolutely nothing to see same guy in open world.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  17. #1457
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And like a genie, doesn't really exist. Just like you don't become friends with people that happen to ride the bus at same hours you do, when going to work.

    Social interactions and communities exist at guilds level similar to your workplace where you actually have opportunities to talk to others and make friends.

    In short, it doesn't make game any better, at best it just limits how many friends you can make, at worst pushes people to buy realm transfers once server dies.

    It means absolutely nothing to see same guy in open world.
    it absolutely handicaps the game, as it removes server identity, character identity on that server, etc.

    there was a time where a toxic player would be outright blacklisted on a server for bad behavior, accountability. It doesn't feel like a world with cross servers, it feels like more a mobile game with nameless faceless NPC's running around.

    It was better when your character name mattered on a server, or didn't... and when bad/toxic players would be held accountable. You ninja an item from the wrong person? You may never get into content ever again. Saw it all the time during TBC and vanilla. Bad attitudes would be blacklisted and forced to quit or change their ways.

    When you remove server accountability by cross servers and ques, you only feed the worst of the community... not the best.

    There's a reason why vanilla-TBC felt like real worlds... because you could be someone in the community, or be treated like a leper. That still exists in classic due to the design itself being superior

    The SOCIAL element outside of guild is just as important as the social element of friends/guildies, and that was removed with crossplay. it's why no one talks, or is accuontable for anything anymore. It's why there's rampant toxicity in the community, because there is no more accountability short of crying to a GM with a report like a baby.

    It was far better when you could say to trade "Kaminaris has ninja'd item X. it's his 2nd time ninja'ing an item. never group with him, spread the word" and your character would basically just have to reroll to get groups. The GOOD times

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    You know by that metric no wow expan has ever had exclusive or unique mounts or experiences right?

    If telling others how to do something instantly means they can go stamp there ticket and get it then wow has never had any hidden content or mounts or any thing else. Your pretty much making up a senecio where to exclude recent expans you have to exclude all of wow as a whole because recent expans are out doing the old ones.

    As far as exclusive mounts or unique experiences there’s just no real question that recent expans out pace the likes of TBC by any real measure.

    The hive mind also isn’t a reskin but even if it was every unique mounts was a reskin in classic-tbc.
    TBC had TCG items that were exclusive, and i'd argue the very BEST example of this in WoW history was Naxx in WOTLK.. the immortal and Undying titles/mounts.

    Blizz should have done that for every single raid tier that has ever come out... remove the legendary's, mounts, and titles from the dungeons after they aren't fresh content to make the people who've earned those rewards feel justified and accomplished in their struggles.

    There's a reason those 2 proto drakes hold more value than ALL of the other raid mounts put together

  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    it absolutely handicaps the game, as it removes server identity, character identity on that server, etc.

    there was a time where a toxic player would be outright blacklisted on a server for bad behavior, accountability. It doesn't feel like a world with cross servers, it feels like more a mobile game with nameless faceless NPC's running around.

    It was better when your character name mattered on a server, or didn't... and when bad/toxic players would be held accountable. You ninja an item from the wrong person? You may never get into content ever again. Saw it all the time during TBC and vanilla. Bad attitudes would be blacklisted and forced to quit or change their ways.

    When you remove server accountability by cross servers and ques, you only feed the worst of the community... not the best.

    There's a reason why vanilla-TBC felt like real worlds... because you could be someone in the community, or be treated like a leper. That still exists in classic due to the design itself being superior

    The SOCIAL element outside of guild is just as important as the social element of friends/guildies, and that was removed with crossplay. it's why no one talks, or is accuontable for anything anymore. It's why there's rampant toxicity in the community, because there is no more accountability short of crying to a GM with a report like a baby.

    It was far better when you could say to trade "Kaminaris has ninja'd item X. it's his 2nd time ninja'ing an item. never group with him, spread the word" and your character would basically just have to reroll to get groups. The GOOD times

    - - - Updated - - -



    TBC had TCG items that were exclusive, and i'd argue the very BEST example of this in WoW history was Naxx in WOTLK.. the immortal and Undying titles/mounts.

    Blizz should have done that for every single raid tier that has ever come out... remove the legendary's, mounts, and titles from the dungeons after they aren't fresh content to make the people who've earned those rewards feel justified and accomplished in their struggles.

    There's a reason those 2 proto drakes hold more value than ALL of the other raid mounts put together
    I mean plague is buyable now... The problem came from how terrible of an idea undying was as an achievement. It took me over a month to earn my black proto drake from people dcing and dying in situations that normally would be trivial to avoid. The most annoying one being someone dcing during the spider bosses cocoon after all the other bosses but saph and kel were cleared.

    That left such a foul taste in everyone's mouth that the system was crushed. Though I honestly would prefer all content remain in the game rather then have seasonal rewards myself.

  19. #1459
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I mean plague is buyable now... The problem came from how terrible of an idea undying was as an achievement. It took me over a month to earn my black proto drake from people dcing and dying in situations that normally would be trivial to avoid. The most annoying one being someone dcing during the spider bosses cocoon after all the other bosses but saph and kel were cleared.

    That left such a foul taste in everyone's mouth that the system was crushed. Though I honestly would prefer all content remain in the game rather then have seasonal rewards myself.
    I feel your pain, but keeping them around permanently devalues them and the accomplishments.

    I do feel your pain tho. We lost the immortal one week on KT at like 5% because someone got MC'd and a freakin' chain heal dropped them about 1 second before the boss died. I've never heard such silence in a raid.

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    it absolutely handicaps the game, as it removes server identity, character identity on that server, etc.

    there was a time where a toxic player would be outright blacklisted on a server for bad behavior, accountability. It doesn't feel like a world with cross servers, it feels like more a mobile game with nameless faceless NPC's running around.

    It was better when your character name mattered on a server, or didn't... and when bad/toxic players would be held accountable. You ninja an item from the wrong person? You may never get into content ever again. Saw it all the time during TBC and vanilla. Bad attitudes would be blacklisted and forced to quit or change their ways.

    When you remove server accountability by cross servers and ques, you only feed the worst of the community... not the best.

    There's a reason why vanilla-TBC felt like real worlds... because you could be someone in the community, or be treated like a leper. That still exists in classic due to the design itself being superior

    The SOCIAL element outside of guild is just as important as the social element of friends/guildies, and that was removed with crossplay. it's why no one talks, or is accuontable for anything anymore. It's why there's rampant toxicity in the community, because there is no more accountability short of crying to a GM with a report like a baby.

    It was far better when you could say to trade "Kaminaris has ninja'd item X. it's his 2nd time ninja'ing an item. never group with him, spread the word" and your character would basically just have to reroll to get groups. The GOOD times

    - - - Updated - - -



    TBC had TCG items that were exclusive, and i'd argue the very BEST example of this in WoW history was Naxx in WOTLK.. the immortal and Undying titles/mounts.

    Blizz should have done that for every single raid tier that has ever come out... remove the legendary's, mounts, and titles from the dungeons after they aren't fresh content to make the people who've earned those rewards feel justified and accomplished in their struggles.

    There's a reason those 2 proto drakes hold more value than ALL of the other raid mounts put together
    The "community" of classic and TBC is in no way superior. Because most of the time? Those people bad mouthing people in chat were typically raid leaders who were salty about the person calling them on their bull shit. Sure there were times where it was legitimate but most of the time it was someone being blacklisted because they dared to point out the raid leader was playing favorites.

    There is nothing good about what you describe. The vast majority of the time it was petty and childish and I'm glad it's gone.

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