Shadowlands: Rapidly Climbing the Ladder in Popularity

[Glorious Leader]

man people complain about "systems" in shadowlands when pretty much all of them are trivial or optional to do

Which is the problem because what people called forced content in the past was other people's character progression. Now the game just ends.

[Cosmic Janitor]

For some reason the modern dev team has a massive hate boner for player housing. Remember when they claimed to have given us player housing via that garrison system which lacked the most important aspect of player housing? The customization? Hard to forget that bullshit.

I don't see the modern devs hating it anymore than the wannabe bro-gamers of yesteryear that dictated the direction of the game until the end of WoD. Frankly I think the current devs just have not found a good way to implement it in a way that allows them to show absolutely no commitment like almost all new systems they've added since WoD. At best they have issues with their engine and database, like dynamic loading of many objects (with collisions) and storing all this in a characters dataset.

As much as I dislike Ion and his empty lawyer talk, at least he (or his team) stated that they want to implement it, but just haven't found a way to do it justice. Even as the empty platitude that this is, it's an upgrade over "we need to add our Blizzard spin to it" that got us garrisons. You can at least argue that they might realize that WoD had nothing to do with housing.

[Shaetha]

I did. Two times in fact. I quite like it, but not as much as FFXIV. Somehow it just didn't click. If I ever get a better PC and a good enough income to support multiple MMOs I might get my hands on all th expansions and start a fresh character with Greymoor. I'm a sucker of dark gothic vampire stories.

Usually, when a game doesn't click like that it's because you just don't like the core gameplay loop despite all the features being attractive.

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the bad endgame content that start to feel more like collection Garrision resources in order to upgrade your Garrison

I really wish people would realize anima is garrison resources. It's always been garrison resources. It was always intended to be garrison resources.

[Wangming]

Usually, when a game doesn't click like that it's because you just don't like the core gameplay loop despite all the features being attractive.

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I guess. Can't really put my finger on it. I know what put me off BDO was the interface, primarily. For SWTOR it was how they acted every single time during login as if I used a different computer. And how there wasn't much to do once you've reached the end of the main story.
For WoW, it was the story, the animations, the class mechanics, all the subsystems designed to waste your time, and the unengaging profession system. This seems to an excessive ammount of negativity regarding WoW, but you know, out of these I've spent the most time playing WoW. I'm not even sure my FFXIV playtime is above WoW's yet. So I have more impressions and therefore more chance to find something that rubs me the wrong way.

[bloodykiller86]

Which is the problem because what people called forced content in the past was other people's character progression. Now the game just ends.

what are you talking about? the game doesnt end until you've completed all relevant content such as Mythic raids, all 15 keys, PvP etc etc lol like theres really no end at all unless you got 100% of achievements

[Pheraz]

I still can't decide for myself if Shadowlands is worse than BfA or not. After BfA, Blizzard needed to come back with a BANG! like they did with Legion. Shadowlands definitely was the opposite - but I haven't made up my mind yet. Shadowlands still is young and the first weeks were miles ahead of BfA, but in the end?

Subjectively, Bfa had a better atmosphere and felt like two coherent new land masses, plus the awesome naga zone.

Objectively, for a casual like me there was much much more to do in Bfa than in shadowlands.

I already miss Bfa and come back to Boralus from time to time for the vibes

[Soon-TM]

hopefully on a timeline faster than Legion.

Well, SL is already !@#$ed in that regard. 9.1 will be releasing roughly around the same timeframe than 7.2.5 (i.e. when ToS was opened).

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what are you talking about? the game doesnt end until you've completed all relevant content such as Mythic raids, all 15 keys, PvP etc etc lol like theres really no end at all unless you got 100% of achievements

With that logic, almost no one could complain about the lack of content in e.g. WoD, since chances are that only a tiny % of the playerbase killed mythic Archimonde or got Glad, much less both of them. What a disingenuous argument

[arkanon]

I guess. Can't really put my finger on it. I know what put me off BDO was the interface, primarily. For SWTOR it was how they acted every single time during login as if I used a different computer. And how there wasn't much to do once you've reached the end of the main story.
For WoW, it was the story, the animations, the class mechanics, all the subsystems designed to waste your time, and the unengaging profession system. This seems to an excessive ammount of negativity regarding WoW, but you know, out of these I've spent the most time playing WoW. I'm not even sure my FFXIV playtime is above WoW's yet. So I have more impressions and therefore more chance to find something that rubs me the wrong way.

The really sad thing about SWTOR in particular is that it had all the makings of a genuine wow killer - but right from launch, everything went horribly wrong. First, the "red-zone" issues - cant buy the game in certain countries until a different date, but we cant tell you why! Then they launched AUS servers, but FAR too late. Then there was the engine itself, which although visually impressive, did not handle the mmo combat well at all. Sure, they "fixed" that by having animations take a back seat to input, which was a fantastic change, but again it was too late.

I put wow aside to focus on SWTOR, as did a small group of friends, and my god did it have the potential to take us away forever. But the issues just mounted - small at first, but over time it just became too much - poor optimization, poor engine to begin with, loading screen after loading screen just to take your ship to a different zone, average servers, terrible maintenance. In fact, I remember them bringing the servers down in prime time Friday evening - literally 7:30pm local time on a Friday evening, for FIVE HOURS, to fix an issue were people completing battlegrounds were only receiving 90% of the currency they should have. Yes, not 500%, not 5% - 90%. Can you imagine that conversation?

"ok guys, people completing BGs are earning 90 honor instead of 100, better bring the servers down a few weeks into launch, at prime time, on a Friday, for 5 hours".

Great ip, great visuals, absolutely terrible execution. I often wonder how amazing the game might have been with experienced mmo devs behind it, Blizzard for example. Not the game systems or monetization or anything like that, just the development of the core game itself.

[Soon-TM]

I often wonder how amazing the game might have been with experienced mmo devs behind it, Blizzard for example. Not the game systems or monetization or anything like that, just the development of the core game itself.

Well, there was another MMO which showed some promise at the beginning, had a solid engine, and unlike SWTOR, it was made mostly by former Blizzard devs. But we all know how it ended.

[Wangming]

The really sad thing about SWTOR in particular is that it had all the makings of a genuine wow killer - but right from launch, everything went horribly wrong.

Yeah sadly it looked (and looks) like Bioware has no idea what makes an MMO good. As if they didn't play enough before making SWTOR. The base game leveling is the best in any MMO. Especially if you roll Scoundrel or Imperial Agent. After that it goes downhill.

[Accendor]

Which is the problem because what people called forced content in the past was other people's character progression. Now the game just ends.

So much this. This is the first time since WoD that I am back to raidlogging and I hated it

[Cosmic Janitor]

Yeah sadly it looked (and looks) like Bioware has no idea what makes an MMO good. As if they didn't play enough before making SWTOR. The base game leveling is the best in any MMO. Especially if you roll Scoundrel or Imperial Agent. After that it goes downhill.

It's not like there is a universal thing that makes MMOs "good", that heavily depends on the person. Short of the possibility of infinite, deep and engaging content everyone will have a different idea of what makes a game good. You just have to look at the difference between whatever the korean and chinse market cranks out and what is popular in the west.

[Wangming]

It's not like there is a universal thing that makes MMOs "good", that heavily depends on the person. Short of the possibility of infinite, deep and engaging content everyone will have a different idea of what makes a game good. You just have to look at the difference between whatever the korean and chinse market cranks out and what is popular in the west.

A fair point, but when a game is out for over ten years and you can count the decent content updates on one hand, you have a problem. There isn't much endgame to speak of.

[lostdrewid]

Shadowlands is far from my favorite expansion. In terms of visuals it ranks pretty goddamn high, but very low in terms of systems. It's the first odd version I haven't loved. Vanilla? Well I loved it at the time, for sure. Wrath? Amazing. Pandaria? Likewise. Legion? Perfection. But Shadowlands needs a lot of mechanical help – Blizzard *needs* to stop reducing our quality of life every time they turn around – to get it the beloved odd version status.

I suppose this was inevitable. It's always been weird that there was only one *good* even version and now there might be a bad odd version to balance it.

... still better than BfA though.

[Zyrinx]

What makes it worse is that the new starting experience: Exiles Reach, has such a nostalgic, warcraft feel to it. So its like, here is blizzard showing us that they can give us exactly that goodness. And then Shadowlands is the exact opposite. Shadowlands is someone on the art teams personal project they got the go ahead to slam into Warcraft.

Hmm yeah, exiles reach is the best part of SL just for the feel

I want an entire expansion like that, but it'll never happen. Cannot unring the bell.

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This happened to me. I'm watching ESO continually get better and WoW continually get worse. Once I got fully invested in ESO crafting, thievery, customization, story and lore... I looked back at WoW and just cleared it off my drive. Truth is for WoW to catch up to what ESO is now it's going to take a massive update that won't happen until 10.0 and that's potentially 2 years away.

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Agreed. Exile's reach was my favorite Shadowlands content lol. And I'm a 800+ days played veteran, but it really hit a modern vanilla feels for me.

You guys are really nudging me here.... If ESO had a Bard class I'd have already done it. I actually installed LotRO and started a Minstrel and it's actually kinda fun and fresh. There's a few things I miss like a decent map and healing add-ons like Vuhdo.

[ro9ue]

You guys are really nudging me here.... If ESO had a Bard class I'd have already done it. I actually installed LotRO and started a Minstrel and it's actually kinda fun and fresh. There's a few things I miss like a decent map and healing add-ons like Vuhdo.

They don't have a bard class but there are like a dozen or more emotes that let you play different instruments with different melodies. Like /flute1 /flute2 etc. Me and my group mates like to jam out as a band during downtime.

[HansOlo]

WoW is never about first impressions. It's about the 24months of hate/love relationship.

Think of this:
1)Deliver halfbaked product.
2)Classes are broken(yes - on purpose - they got better tools than simcraft and they can predict the effects of gearing - even before alpha) - but it brings you hope of things to come.
3)Make it little better/different with class balances, tweaks and raid balancing - but never perfect - it's after all a "minor patch".
4)Make it much better by introducing flying, 45+ new mounts with each major patch(like WTH?) and complete revamp of the gameplay with major quality of life changes and the classes are suddenly tighter in the performance department.
5)Make another expansion with the promise of the things to come.
6)Enter the loop.

With the current technology and all the rapports gathered from all of us - any serious company can predict the outcome of any desicion and the impact of it.

Notice that step 1,2,3 and 4 could be avoided from the start - but that would not make you chase the carrot. It would just make you realize that this game is old and you are almost 20 years older - but we all in the need to escape and forget - and we gladly pay for that(just as predicted).

Genius move by the marketing team.

[bloodykiller86]

Well, SL is already !@#$ed in that regard. 9.1 will be releasing roughly around the same timeframe than 7.2.5 (i.e. when ToS was opened).

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With that logic, almost no one could complain about the lack of content in e.g. WoD, since chances are that only a tiny % of the playerbase killed mythic Archimonde or got Glad, much less both of them. What a disingenuous argument

for those that complain then the least they shouldve gotten in the heroic version of any raid as most casual raid teams go for AoTC only, then up to 10-15s for keys. WoD had openworld issues with absolutely nothing to do there. thats what killed WoD. the main issue now is that side content in WoW is lacking. not by quantity but fun really. they have a few world quests now that are fun unlike before. i would have have more of the venthyr maze and parasol then kill quests personally

[NotTrolling]

WoW is never about first impressions. It's about the 24months of hate/love relationship.

Think of this:
1)Deliver halfbaked product.
2)Classes are broken(yes - on purpose - they got better tools than simcraft and they can predict the effects of gearing - even before alpha) - but it brings you hope of things to come.
3)Make it little better/different with class balances, tweaks and raid balancing - but never perfect - it's after all a "minor patch".
4)Make it much better by introducing flying, 45+ new mounts with each major patch(like WTH?) and complete revamp of the gameplay with major quality of life changes and the classes are suddenly tighter in the performance department.
5)Make another expansion with the promise of the things to come.
6)Enter the loop.

With the current technology and all the rapports gathered from all of us - any serious company can predict the outcome of any desicion and the impact of it.

Notice that step 1,2,3 and 4 could be avoided from the start - but that would not make you chase the carrot. It would just make you realize that this game is old and you are almost 20 years older - but we all in the need to escape and forget - and we gladly pay for that(just as predicted).

Genius move by the marketing team.

*chefs kiss*
Perfect summation of modern WoW.

[Mardux]

*chefs kiss*
Perfect summation of modern WoW.

It would be... if it were accurate about the 3 most recent expansions.

But its not.

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Shadowlands is far from my favorite expansion. In terms of visuals it ranks pretty goddamn high, but very low in terms of systems. It's the first odd version I haven't loved. Vanilla? Well I loved it at the time, for sure. Wrath? Amazing. Pandaria? Likewise. Legion? Perfection. But Shadowlands needs a lot of mechanical help – Blizzard *needs* to stop reducing our quality of life every time they turn around – to get it the beloved odd version status.

I suppose this was inevitable. It's always been weird that there was only one *good* even version and now there might be a bad odd version to balance it.

... still better than BfA though.

Whats weird is you thinking that because you have an opinion, that everyone must adopt your opinion. But I guess that is to be expected from the echo chamber that is MMOC.