Shadowlands: Rapidly Climbing the Ladder in Popularity

[Glorious Leader]

Nah man the AP grind was a complaint I saw all the time. And one of the few I agreed with. The grind was moronic.

It was literally a response to the complete and utter lack of casual friebdly content in Wod. The "ggrind" was a system of alternate advancement that provided casual players of all types steady progress at max level. It was not a grind in any actual sense but for midcore worlds 9999 raiders who desperately needed the boost

[Feanoro]

Since you started this post with an ad hominem, I doubt you care but I must ask... do you actually think that the insane growth periods of early WoW were sustainable?

Allow me to ask you a counter question. Given that growth, do you think it's normal to see insane decline periods, particularly with no lengthy plateau? I'm well aware of the concept of a saturated market, are you aware that a freefall like WoW has seen since Cata can only be attributed to the product being less attractive? Stating otherwise is illogical to the point that we must assume an agenda or insanity, and your posts disincline me to believe insanity.

You drawing conclusions by looking at incomplete information (subscriber level go down = GAME BAD; subscriber level go up = GAME GOOD) is no different than me simply speculating that maybe... just maybe... the reality isn't nearly as cynical as you'd love to convince yourself it is.

Common sense states fewer customers means there's less interest in the product. My objection was to you boldly proclaiming you were going to state facts when you had already stated no one here (a set which includes you) knows those facts, followed by pure speculation and opinion.

[Crimson Spears]

I quit before i even started doing any serious raiding this expansion, should have checked fos category when you inspected my char before making some ignorant statements.

Couldn't keep playing this god awful expansion.

Then what is it your trying to say?

I see the grinds as a massive negative to the game and pretending they are optional seems to be rather hallow. They are tuned around the grind the progressive nerfing of the instance is rather blunt proof of this.B

[Relapses]

Allow me to ask you a counter question. Given that growth, do you think it's normal to see insane decline periods, particularly with no lengthy plateau? I'm well aware of the concept of a saturated market, are you aware that a freefall like WoW has seen since Cata can only be attributed to the product being less attractive? Stating otherwise is illogical to the point that we must assume an agenda or insanity, and your posts disincline me to believe insanity.

Yes, it's obviously "insane" to think that it's actually kind of normal for subscription video game that's been around 17 years not to hold the same appeal to 100% of its players for the entirety of its existence. Because, after all, nobody ever quits WoW because they move the fuck on with their lives. They only quit it because of things Blizzard changes. We know this because Blizzard hates its players and endeavors only to create a product that people hate.

Get real, dude.

Common sense states fewer customers means there's less interest in the product. My objection was to you boldly proclaiming you were going to state facts when you had already stated no one here (a set which includes you) knows those facts, followed by pure speculation and opinion.

I could have phrased that better, you're right. But this isn't a "common sense" argument. It's an argument about a video game with a subscription model. A subscription model which has very much shaped the way the game has been developed ever since its launch. And to ignore that to make baseless repudiations of the game supported by incomplete information is disingenuous at best.

[Glorious Leader]

Then what is it your trying to say?

I see the grinds as a massive negative to the game and pretending they are optional seems to be rather hallow. They are tuned around the grind the progressive nerfing of the instance is rather blunt proof of this.B

Of course but thats other proples content youre fucking with. I'll fix this for for you. I see mythic raids as a massive negative to the game and pretending the developers are not catering to those players is rather foolish. The current iyeration of the game is designed in such a way so they don't feel put out to participate in other content and the massive amount of boredom and lack of anything to do is proof of this. Basically if you're a mythic raider you should feel forced.

[Crimson Spears]

Of course but thats other proples content youre fucking with. I'll fix this for for you. I see mythic raids as a massive negative to the game and pretending the developers are not catering to those players is rather foolish. The current iyeration of the game is designed in such a way so they don't feel put out to participate in other content and the massive amount of boredom and lack of anything to do is proof of this. Basically if you're a mythic raider you should feel forced.

Then have their content give them rewards they enjoy and can take some pride in... have unique models, mounts, weapons, illusions and whatever other toy they could want...

Just let me cap out my required items from raiding rather then trying to force me into their content. It makes as much sense for a grind to award power as locking leggos to mythic raiding.

[kaminaris]

Then have their content give them rewards they enjoy and can take some pride in... have unique models, mounts, weapons, illusions and whatever other toy they could want...

Just let me cap out my required items from raiding rather then trying to force me into their content. It makes as much sense for a grind to award power as locking leggos to mythic raiding.

This type of opinion is exactly massive negative and straight harmful for for game. People don't want garbage consolation prizes. People want to progress their characters.

[Glorious Leader]

Then have their content give them rewards they enjoy and can take some pride in... have unique models, mounts, weapons, illusions and whatever other toy they could want...

Just let me cap out my required items from raiding rather then trying to force me into their content. It makes as much sense for a grind to award power as locking leggos to mythic raiding.

They tried that. Turns out the rewards they enjoy are the exact same rewards you enjoy. NEWS FLASH. People want to progress their characters.

Here's a better idea. Why don't we take the character prog out of mythic raiding so you can live in a bubble and never have to worry about anything outside waiting for your raid again. Let's see how satisfied mythic raiders would be if mythic raiding awarded nothing.

[Soon-TM]

They tried that. Turns out the rewards they enjoy are the exact same rewards you enjoy. NEWS FLASH. People want to progress their characters.

Here's a better idea. Why don't we take the character prog out of mythic raiding so you can live in a bubble and never have to worry about anything outside waiting for your raid again. Let's see how satisfied mythic raiders would be if mythic raiding awarded nothing.

It would be very much worth seeing lol. After all, most in the hardcore crowd claim to be doing mythic content for the challenge, for the teamplay it entails, and all that PR talk. What better challenge than making sure that you'll never make any progress other than "gitin' gud" (or the raid being nerfed into oblivion)?

[Crimson Spears]

This type of opinion is exactly massive negative and straight harmful for for game. People don't want garbage consolation prizes. People want to progress their characters.

Then they would progress through the difficulties... just increasing numbers pointless is well pointless.

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It would be very much worth seeing lol. After all, most in the hardcore crowd claim to be doing mythic content for the challenge, for the teamplay it entails, and all that PR talk. What better challenge than making sure that you'll never make any progress other than "gitin' gud" (or the raid being nerfed into oblivion)?

The system breaks since you can no longer scale bosses...

Breaking the game to appease world questers envy doesn't seem overly useful...

[Soon-TM]

Then they would progress through the difficulties... just increasing numbers pointless is well pointless.

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The system breaks since you can no longer scale bosses...

Breaking the game to appease world questers envy doesn't seem overly useful...

If all the resources that go into raids went instead into world content, I guess it could be much better and difficult than what it is. Of course, a new game director would be required, someone who understands what an MMO is about, and not only instanced content.

[Glorious Leader]

Breaking the game to appease world questers envy doesn't seem overly useful...

Its even less useful to do it to appease a handful of mythic raiders. And you can scale the characters inside the raid which is the point..

[starstationprofm]

It was literally a response to the complete and utter lack of casual friebdly content in Wod. The "ggrind" was a system of alternate advancement that provided casual players of all types steady progress at max level. It was not a grind in any actual sense but for midcore worlds 9999 raiders who desperately needed the boost

Well a lot of people felt like it was because most BFA complaints I saw were about the AP grind

[gobio]

What's up with people these days.

They are taking away resources for muh content for THOSE people.

I don't mind these attitude, you do you, but if that is what you want, aim higher, aim for Bobby's personal coffers. "imagine they stop giving bobby millions of dollars and spend on my preferred content instead".

But of course, bobby doesn't give a flying f about you, and the mythic raider at least care enough to respond. And that makes the mythic raider your number 1 target.

Basically Beef Cattle bitching about Dairy Cattle getting better food from the CORPORATE farmer.

[Glorious Leader]

Well a lot of people felt like it was because most BFA complaints I saw were about the AP grind

I saw more complaints about islands and no pvp vendor. It was a tiny minority of midcore shit heels that bitched

[Crimson Spears]

If all the resources that go into raids went instead into world content, I guess it could be much better and difficult than what it is. Of course, a new game director would be required, someone who understands what an MMO is about, and not only instanced content.

Has there ever been good world content? That isn't a taunt but a genuine question. Timeless isle was considered to hard for the playerbase it was aimed at.

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Its even less useful to do it to appease a handful of mythic raiders. And you can scale the characters inside the raid which is the point..

Right now those players have 213 gear and it isn't enough... people who play for power rewards and not for gameplay reasons can't be bought because once you buy them they quit.

[Glorious Leader]

Has there ever been good world content? That isn't a taunt but a genuine question. Timeless isle was considered to hard for the playerbase it was aimed at.

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Right now those players have 213 gear and it isn't enough... people who play for power rewards and not for gameplay reasons can't be bought because once you buy them they quit.

if this premise follows then you can offer nothing for the people who play for "gameplay reasons" and should be fine. You're really only making an argument for mythic raids to get nothing to be honest and actually a much better argument for more mandatory grinds. Putting aside the fact that that 213 gear isn't actually reliably obtained in any way, offering people who "play for power rewards" more will keep them for longer.

[Tyris Flare]

It would be very much worth seeing lol. After all, most in the hardcore crowd claim to be doing mythic content for the challenge, for the teamplay it entails, and all that PR talk. What better challenge than making sure that you'll never make any progress other than "gitin' gud" (or the raid being nerfed into oblivion)?

If you aren't in a Hall of Fame-ish guild farming the last two bosses in the first couple months, the rewards from mythic raiding are already basically nothing. You can gear a little faster (again, only if you kill bosses relatively quickly) but otherwise the Great Vault already makes the rewards pretty meaningless.

My 8/10 character currently has exactly the same ilvl (225-226) as my main alt and only a few over an alt I created when Valor was introduced.

Though this might be different next tier with us getting the raid gems as "sort of sets but not quite"

[Crimson Spears]

if this premise follows then you can offer nothing for the people who play for "gameplay reasons" and should be fine. You're really only making an argument for mythic raids to get nothing to be honest and actually a much better argument for more mandatory grinds. Putting aside the fact that that 213 gear isn't actually reliably obtained in any way, offering people who "play for power rewards" more will keep them for longer.

I don't really get why you have a mental block that stops you from understanding how gear gating works to offer an increasing challenge within the same tier but you pretending it doesn't exist doesn't remove it. I feel like ive already won this argument with you before and im not gonna beat a dead horse.

[Glorious Leader]

I don't really get why you have a mental block that stops you from understanding how gear gating works to offer an increasing challenge within the same tier but you pretending it doesn't exist doesn't remove it. I feel like ive already won this argument with you before and im not gonna beat a dead horse.

I never said it doesn't exist, just that its not necessary to provide you with a challenge inside the mythic raid. The fights can scale you to whatever template is appropriate. You really protest against something that would literally free you from ever having to grind anything again.