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  1. #21
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    Because badge gear is horrible. There's a reason why they had to change it with every single expansion and then make tweaks to it as well, nobody actually liked it at the time.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you act like people in wotlk werent also getting gear from current tier raids. They were. They were also able to supplement current tier with valor/justice token gear while at the same time running those late tier raids for loot. Your memory fails you and the current system is worse in every arguable way.

    Also never forget under that system you could still wear any gear type your class could wear which was better and since you had multiple options it was easier to target stats. Plus... reforging. Everything was better then except there was no M+
    I'm not really sure what argument you're trying to make. You talk about WotLK in one sentence then reforging in the second. Reforging didn't exist in Wrath.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    It worked in cata. It worked in wrath. It sort of worked in mop but it was gimmicky. Ever since then there has been maybe one patch per expansion with badge gear. I don’t understand why they can’t just bring back valor points? Running a daily heroic felt good. Finally upgrading a low ilvl piece you had due to a bad luck streak felt good. Getting shards once you can’t get anymore upgrades from the vendor felt good.

    Why the helll don’t they just bring this back? Why are they so adamant to make gear purely RNG?
    m+ replaced badges,its far better of a system...ofc unless you REALLY hate dungeons,but its a trade off,in the past you had to farm those dungeons alot more but they were faster,now you dont need to farm m+ as much for the gear but the dungeon is harder

    and if you enjoy dungeons,than ofc its obviously gr8 for you as its no longer mop style easy mode

    i would however like to see the wod valor ilvl upgrade system back

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    rng makes you spend more time grinding, more time staying subscribed.
    cool story but wrong,you spend less time doing m+ to get gear than you did farming all those badges in the past,because thats what m+ is,a much better replacement for badges

    sure its posible for you to get really unlucky,but thats why you run with a guild and get stuff traded,i for example was mythic ready after just one week in 8.3 after not playing in 8.2

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    If you're waiting months to be geared now, you're doing it wrong. But yeah, that's exactly how I remember WOTLK. People waiting to spend their currency at a vendor in X time, rather than doing content throughout the week.

    And M+ is literally a way for people to "band together". Pug life was always cancer, but there's such a thing as guilds and friends.
    Amen. Some of the worst dungeon experiences in my WoW 'life' were in PuGs during vanilla and BC.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    Also never forget under that system you could still wear any gear type your class could wear which was better and since you had multiple options it was easier to target stats.
    Hey look who didnt play a Rogue or a Clothie back then

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Because badge gear is horrible. There's a reason why they had to change it with every single expansion and then make tweaks to it as well, nobody actually liked it at the time.
    Surely you must be joking, who didn't enjoy the welfare epics threads.

  7. #27
    Because there is no way to implement it that wouldn't just create a weekly nerf to the game.
    On top of that, there is already an extremely powerful system in the Great Vault that offers something better.
    Can they both exist?

    Perhaps.
    But the "badge gear" would need to be so poor it would never actually supersede anything you got out of the great vault, which is luck driven.

    Would you be satisfied if they added gear equivalent to honor gear from PVE?
    Because to me, honor gear is just the badge gear of this expansion, honestly.
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  8. #28
    Can't have that when the game director is pushing Meme+ dungeons down every player's throat.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    I got geared much easier in SL than I did back in WOTLK, faster too.
    Did we play a different wotlk ?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Because the current system is infinitely better
    Maybe if you are a gambling addict, but most people aren't.

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    Anyways, i agree OP. Less loot should come with a consolation prize and anima aint it.

    I say take gear out of world quests and get a valor point currency and an assortment of gear that allows you to get something you have been terribly unluky with.
    I have had that experience on my monk alt. He is over 170 ilvl and i'm still stuck with the 130 ilvl weapon from BfA. Have healed +5 with BfA weapon, it's ridiculous.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    I got geared much easier in SL than I did back in WOTLK, faster too. First set that allowed me to skip Normal grinding = from the AH. The rest I got from HC dungeons, then Mythic, now raiding.
    It used to be that those HC dungeon runs could give you currency towards top level raid gear. So you could fill the gaps you ended up with later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Because badge gear is horrible.
    You're not thinking back far enough. Valor used to be an alternate source for the best gear available.
    If the same system applied today, every HC dungeon would drop 1 valor for each boss and 2 valor on completion. 50 valor would by you any Nathria ilvl 200 drop. Tokens from running Heroic or Mythic Nathria would allow you to update that piece all the way to ilvl 226.
    Last edited by dexx; 2020-12-20 at 06:50 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Maybe if you are a gambling addict, but most people aren't.

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    Anyways, i agree OP. Less loot should come with a consolation prize and anima aint it.

    I say take gear out of world quests and get a valor point currency and an assortment of gear that allows you to get something you have been terribly unluky with.
    I have had that experience on my monk alt. He is over 170 ilvl and i'm still stuck with the 130 ilvl weapon from BfA. Have healed +5 with BfA weapon, it's ridiculous.
    Current system is more rng and gambling addiction than any form of titanforging ever existing in game. There is no smooth progression, no smooth power upgrades.
    Its all or nothing. You either get the item or not. In extreme cases one dude can grab 8 pieces of loot in 8 dungeon runs and the other... not a single item in 100 runs.
    Vault doesn't fix anything.

    Getting THIRTY FIVE anima from M+ is just plain bad.
    And the only way to get something deterministic is pvp. This is fucking worst loot design I have ever seen.

    And no its not been like this because you had:
    Master loot (im glad its gone but now you are entirely dependent on rng)
    badges
    coins

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    It worked in cata. It worked in wrath. It sort of worked in mop but it was gimmicky. Ever since then there has been maybe one patch per expansion with badge gear. I don’t understand why they can’t just bring back valor points? Running a daily heroic felt good. Finally upgrading a low ilvl piece you had due to a bad luck streak felt good. Getting shards once you can’t get anymore upgrades from the vendor felt good.

    Why the helll don’t they just bring this back? Why are they so adamant to make gear purely RNG?
    The answer is out there my friend. It is because Blizzard likes the too deterministic nature of loot. They dislike that you can mark in your calendar, when you'll get piece x. The story is different for PvP, since there is 0 loot trading. So it makes sense for PvP gear to be more deterministic in its acquisition.

  14. #34
    Yeah, being forced to run pointless heroics every day was so much better.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    yep. ppls, watch the video. explains it all. (serious)

    but for me personally, i agree zero to the videos conclusion. i way more stick to old rob pardos and jeff kaplans semantics here. but in the end it is simply a matter of opinion. my opinion is based first and foremost on the base pattern, that WoW is NOT Diablo (or at least WAS NOT, in the past) and loot, reward structure and game systems behaviour works entirely different between the two. Original WoW game design (which has nothing to do with actual WoW game design) had totally another goals and works entirely different. everything whats said in the video adopt not very well to classical MMORPG game design, goals and gaming „reasons“. imo.

    so, that said, in the end of the day its maybe more a question about what WoW is or should be. The video is 100% accurate about modern WoW. 0% accurate for classical WoW. In my opinion. so, for actual SL designed WoW, its accurate. the WoW, derailed from its original design 10 parsecs far away, is just my problem, not the games or the videos problem.

    so, as is said, its just a question about WoW game design in general. If you are good to go with SL WoW game design, the video is totally accurate. if we talk more about a classic, vanilla, TBC, Wrath game design, the video conclusions are totally fail.

    but this is just my opinion.
    Didnt the "original" WoW Design have not tokens and the best items hat literally sub 5% drop chances, meaning it is as different as it can get from being bought by marks. Marks were even in TBC only catch-up. Imo, mark gear, like in ICC felt so dumb. It was really not that exciting getting your 4pc, and then just up the ilvl with tokens...

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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Yeah, being forced to run pointless heroics every day was so much better.
    How can a heroic be pointless, if it you do it to get an upgrade?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dexx View Post
    It used to be that those HC dungeon runs could give you currency towards top level raid gear. So you could fill the gaps you ended up with later on.

    You're not thinking back far enough. Valor used to be an alternate source for the best gear available.
    If the same system applied today, every HC dungeon would drop 1 valor for each boss and 2 valor on completion. 50 valor would by you any Nathria ilvl 200 drop. Tokens from running Heroic or Mythic Nathria would allow you to update that piece all the way to ilvl 226.
    I'm thinking back from the very first implementation of badge gear all the way until they finally scrapped that piece of shit system after having to make massive changes to it every single expansion because people hated it. The worst implementation of by far was the ilevel upgrade for valor points. Leave that in the dumpster with corruption.
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  17. #37
    I don't buy the grinding in mythic+ thing to keep people in a loop thing. Most people don't even do those. Most people probably don't even do mythic 0. I think they want to try and force people to WANT to group up though (which never works). I miss badges. It made normal/heroic dungeons worth doing expansion wide, with an added bonus to LFR being worth bothering with more than once. Liked the ability to upgrade your gear too. Manually group up or your dungeon content dries up in a week or two kind of freaking sucks. I know people want to say "It's an MMO!" but that's ignoring the reality of things and is just kind of wishful thinking.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    this explains everything you want to know

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urijgWXLYck&t=8m20s

    im too tired to make a tldr though...so please watch
    this just makes me think the designers REALLY don't know what they are doing, understand the problems with the systems they actually put in place, or what players want
    Last edited by BossManRoth; 2020-12-20 at 08:23 AM.

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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by BossManRoth View Post
    this just makes me think the designers REALLY don't know what they are doing, understand the problems with the systems they actually put in place, or what players want
    A common problem that I've seen through all the blue posts released over the years is that either Blizz tries to solve a problem by introducing system upon system without forethought into its consequences, or it just morphs into a shadow of its former self. When it came to the badge system, it did both in the end. I was one of those "lucky" people who went almost two full raid tiers w/o getting a helm upgrade, and the vendors at least gave me something to wear on my head that wasn't utter trash compared to the content I was doing, even if it wasn't the greatest compared to the 25man heroic raiding I was doing. The problem was the system went from being a method to fill in slots with sub-par gear if you got extremely unlucky to being pivotal to everyone's gearing. They took a system that was meant to fix a niche problem and expanded it into a giant system it was never intended to be.

    The irony is that the PvP gear system in Shadowlands is basically the old JP/VP system, where you can buy/upgrade blue gear with Honor (like JP), and buy higher ilvl items with Conquest (like VP). Only difference is that you use Honor to upgrade all of the pieces, and Conquest has a time-gated weekly limit of acquisition so you can't get a full max ilvl set in a week. In the end, it's probably one of the more popular methods of gearing up because it's extremely deterministic up to an ilvl of 184 right now for most players, especially with how limited loot is from dungeons/raids. If you go back to the video people are linking, the game's actually come full circle in many respects, as the same problems are coming back that they used the badge system to address. Currently, the Weekly Vault is meant to be the "badge system" replacement, but the real question is whether the players will ultimately be okay with how things end up.

    Personally, I think personal loot is going to be a major issue that would drive people to want another deterministic way to gear up. If you are part of any organized end-game content (from raids to M+), or even with your friends and family... it absolutely feels horrid when you get gear you cannot give away. One thing going for low loot drop rates back in the early days of WoW was that you could give it to anyone, now you can only give it to someone if it doesn't automatically bind to you (even if you don't want it). It runs very counter to that excitement of seeing loot drop from a boss, as the excitement isn't always just a purely selfish endeavor, but quite often a group effort where you want to help people out. The irony is that the personal loot system moves the game away from a group-centric mentality towards a solo/individual one. The end result is similar to what the badge system morphed into, it just took a different route to get to the same end.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Eh...thing with badge gear is when you raid by the time you have enough badges to buy something...everything is useless
    Not really, you'd get about a piece every week or two. And it was mostly there to supplement for bad roll. Fixing your worst gear due to not getting drops for those slots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Did we play a different wotlk ?
    They either dont remember WotLK or just parroting BS arguments they've heard from streamers.
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