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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Xires View Post
    100% disagree with you. The current loot system is superior in every way to wrath. Wrath people did crap for their valor and then sat in city's the whole xpac. People aren't sitting in city's and you have a slew of ways to get loot. Do a mythic+7 and you get a choice of a 213 item in your weekly VAULT. You know...the thing that gives you gear every single week? And then on top of that some of the gear in their was shit for valor badges. And it wasn't even top tier stuff. In TBC it was used as a catchup mechanic. You got T5 equiv loot for doing regular things. But people were raiding to get tier 6 and tier 6.5 in Sunwell. Also the trophy's and stuff you got were drops from raids that you turned in at vendors for tier gear.

    SL's gearing system is waay waaaaay superior to wrath.

    - - - Updated - - -



    they were crying about the catchup gear from it. It wasn't the best loot though by any means.

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    So...in what world could you play an MMO for 30 minutes and get progression out of it? So basically, you want the bottom 1% of players to get gear that other people have to spend hours trying to achieve via raids and mythic+ loot. Maybe this game just isn't for you if you only have 30 minutes to play.
    If blizzard caters to everyone...then no one is happy. So its best they actually cater to the players who actually PLAY the game. Rather then people who hop on for 30 minutes and then log off. Nah. No need for badge gear. Blizzard even specifically wants to slow down your gearing so badges are a big NO on that.
    If you do a mythic+ you are guaranteed an item in your weekly vault. Since you are looking for quick fix. It's even better then badges.
    In world of Warcraft. One of the reasons it’s still alive and kicking is that even if you have barely one hour per day to play, you can still progress in some way.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Xires View Post
    they were crying about the catchup gear from it. It wasn't the best loot though by any means.
    It is not catchup gear.
    It has the latest tier bonus on them.

    The weekly PvP boss also drops the hand/chest raid gear with tier bonus.

    Thanks to raiders' tear, Blizzard removed them because it forces raiders to do these contents.
    Anything unique, raiders will argue that they are forced to collect these gear, even the ilevel is lower.
    For example, if a trinket makes you fall slow or creates an AoE damage, they will argue it is useful in one of the boss fight.
    Last edited by xenogear3; 2020-12-21 at 02:17 PM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    It is not catchup gear.
    It has the latest tier bonus on them.
    IIRC that only happened for one or two tiers in WotLK. Valor gear existed for quite a bit longer than that. Most of it wasn't terribly good.

  4. #144
    I am Murloc! WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Is there even one in the current lineup where 40+ isn't above the limit?
    My sanguine depths seven from the beginning of the week was 44:18 with an over time of 3:17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Do you honestly think the average person manages to finish all their m+ runs in time with their non-mdi, non-cheese groups of non-fotm classes?
    Yes, because most people aren't pushing keys that are above a 5

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  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Because the current system is infinitely better
    This! Play what you like and get rewarded via weekly Vault. I think it's slower but way more efficient in terms of constant progression.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by socialmaker View Post
    This! Play what you like and get rewarded via weekly Vault. I think it's slower but way more efficient in terms of constant progression.
    The real irony will be six months from now when some galaxy brain inevitably makes a thread titled, "SL gearing wasn't all that bad," and all the people currently bitching about gear will be posting in it saying they're right.

  8. #148
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    The valor system was fine, but what I really miss was the upgrade system. Man I would stay subbed for so much longer if I knew every week one of my pieces would be 6 ilvl higher.
    You can upgrade your covenant armor (though it's gated by campaign progress). No, your covenant armor isn't BiS, but it's good, especially for the early phases of the game.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Because the current system is infinitely better
    Until RNG never rolls for you to upgrade that final piece. I recall people were complaining about RNG RNG RNG when their specific BiS/Upgrade never dropped and wanted some form of backup, ala currency, so they buy that last item.

    I do not know if Blizzard has somehow addressed this by increasing chances to drop specific items. If so, then is it really RNG like the past?

    I have gone through past expansion having never been able to upgrade certain pieces. I never got a helm upgrade during Cata and a belt during WoTLK. So it can happen.

    I am not saying currency system is better. Never cared how they do the loot system. Just wondering if people will complain if RNG does not roll kindly for them midway during this expansion.

  10. #150
    Because welfare epix are for pvpers only
    You think you do, but you don't ©
    Rogues are fine ©
    We're pretty happy with rogues ©
    Haste will fix it ©

  11. #151
    couse it was choice between more trash items you dont really want or less drops and most people prefer getting items they want over trash.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    It worked in cata. It worked in wrath. It sort of worked in mop but it was gimmicky. Ever since then there has been maybe one patch per expansion with badge gear. I don’t understand why they can’t just bring back valor points? Running a daily heroic felt good. Finally upgrading a low ilvl piece you had due to a bad luck streak felt good. Getting shards once you can’t get anymore upgrades from the vendor felt good.

    Why the helll don’t they just bring this back? Why are they so adamant to make gear purely RNG?

    Because all the hardcore mythic raider and high m+ players QQ that casual players should not get gear. Therefore you can only get decent upgrades doing mythic raid and high keys.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    Because all the hardcore mythic raider and high m+ players QQ that casual players should not get gear. Therefore you can only get decent upgrades doing mythic raid and high keys.
    Actually, the hardcore liked that. Much easier to refill when your recruits are already decently geared. It's the wannabes that kept complaining.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Actually, the hardcore liked that. Much easier to refill when your recruits are already decently geared. It's the wannabes that kept complaining.
    Any raid leader/recruiting officer will tell you the same. It was easier to recruit new people because they had decent gear already and could be taken into progress without having to gear them up first. Nor you had to resort to guild pouching (tho it still existed).

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    The answer is out there my friend. It is because Blizzard likes the too deterministic nature of loot. They dislike that you can mark in your calendar, when you'll get piece x. The story is different for PvP, since there is 0 loot trading. So it makes sense for PvP gear to be more deterministic in its acquisition.
    Uh, surely you mean this expansion only? After-all, we finally ditched the Diablo loot.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Uh, surely you mean this expansion only? After-all, we finally ditched the Diablo loot.
    *dislikes. My bad.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Something like that. It was certainly funny to listen to, but was constantly wanted to "insert a word" into his reasoning.

    Let's start with fact, that considering such things in game out of context (in our case, design of classes, and organization of progress) is useless in principle. You just stupidly look at piece of something, like person at piece of meat/pulp without seeing body of animal/fruit to which it belongs (ex. comparison with children, that he gave, is incorrect in many ways; not because it doesn't show anything, but just by the way he analyzes this, there're number of parameters that need to be taken into account when drawing conclusions).

    Particularly humorous part where he stated failure of paragon system. They continue to fail to understand that when people argue about whether progress and items are important in PvP, then everyone is right in own way, so you need to give "both", ie give progress to compensate for PvE progress (for this use dividing characteristics), but progress: 1) should not take a million exhausting @$$-hours (and this is strictly speaking both for the sake of PvE and for the sake of the PvP community, both sides will benefit from it because PvP isn't PvE, there is completely different component of "satisfaction"; dividing helps to avoid escalating conflict between PvP/PvE progress); 2) have really achievable "leveling" ceiling, where skill and set of characteristics you have chosen will already be important (people continue to participate in PvP either by dressing twinks for this or simply enjoying process without additional revards, however, cosmetics in itself could be a small bonus, there is nothing wrong with that, but you don't need to weave PvE progress here); 3) at the same time, entire structure of classes shouldn't depend in any way on this action (in order to avoid direct dependence of system's balancing on classes' structure and design; for the same reason so-called PvP talents "designated for idiots" was initial delusion, like paragon system, like "borrowed powers" - all this is directly related to organization of progress), this is pure mathematics and organization of characteristics; 4) the whole structure of progress must stop resembling economic crisis (I'm talking about inflation).

    Actually, there is topic with same line next to this one. It's essentially same theme. So here and there, I'd start with simple and trite:
    - And let's first remove personal, scalable, "automatic" loot... boss will always drop something, but not necessarily stuff you need (though this already become group's question), and it will also drop badges in event of long string of failure. No guaranteed week/day end-awards. So, next, let's revise set of characteristics (back to our idi... ohm... devs) that are mandatory for this or that content, which will allow us to separate not only PvP and PvE items, but make badges an alternative, but not replacing, but only "temporarily" complementing ensemble of selected characteristics - they're your role, but not your class. Let's return structure of progress in which dungeons are element of preparation for raids (items, reagents, experience)... And then let's... Well, you get the idea, right? That is, structure of their failure is not so simple and its story goes into their desire to simplify their lives by automating and cheapening development of content and progress as a whole, but not as result of particularly ardent desire to satisfy players, no no, this was considered last, they just "tested" "your" patience and provided just "shut up already" kind of help, which, as you understand, doesn't usually shine with wise performance
    exactly this.

    in some form, the way he look at things in the video, is exactly what lead us to some „problems“ we have in modern wow. but, as i said in another post, this all comes down to „what type of game design ppl like“. in some way retail wow is a form of „conclusion“ of some statments in the video. in a more classical MMORPG game design the video fails. in the end of the day, it depends all on what type of MMORPG game design type you wanna target.

    nonetheless, i totally agree to what you said.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    so basicaly every single player rpg out there is shit,gotcha
    Those are your words.

    It's very immersive to me to farm anima/gold/whathaveyou to exchange for a mount. I far prefer that predictability over the alternative. Regardless of what you're going for, there's nothing wrong with slaying the dragon to pick up a cool piece of loot, regardless if it's guaranteed on the first kill via a quest or the 50th kill via a token currency. There is however something wrong with providing a lootpinata without sharing the odds of the rewards inside it. Luring people in by telling them they could hit the jackpot and still going on with that even after their 500th attempt - this method is predatory and ruins lives and relationships when people can't stop or realize what their priorities have come to, all so a business can profit by targeting adolescents that wouldn't be allowed into a casino.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2020-12-23 at 04:10 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  19. #159
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Evidently its ok for pvp.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    this explains everything you want to know

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urijgWXLYck&t=8m20s

    im too tired to make a tldr though...so please watch
    It's worth noting that that video does essentially boil down to "both have value, but I like RNG more". The speaker describes the design philosophies that led to things like titanforging and gambling on rewards rather than being able to obtain what you want, which I think history has shown are not good alternatives to currencies.

    Ideally WoW should have a combination of both, if for no other reason than to make content always feel rewarding. It sucks to kill a boss and to see nothing but gold in the loot window. A lot of the discussion in that video seems to focus on the idea of PvE currencies being the only source of gear in a game, which was never the case in WoW. They were always a supplementary part of the gearing experience with random drops still being the main source of loot. For the vast majority of WoW's lifespan the inclusion of justice/valour struck a good balance between deterministic vs random loot rewards, while in recent years the game has leaned way too heavily on the RNG side of things.

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