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  1. #1

    UH vs Frost in m+

    Frost is stronger than UH in mythic + right? I got a guy telling me i should switch to UH why am i playing frost?

    I literally do top dps or up to par with the top dps in every mythic run I do. Am I missing something or was that guy just clueless?

    Edit:

    Frost should be very viable for mythic + and not significantly worse than UH?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by wibeg View Post
    Frost is stronger than UH in mythic + right? I got a guy telling me i should switch to UH why am i playing frost?

    I literally do top dps or up to par with the top dps in every mythic run I do. Am I missing something or was that guy just clueless?

    Edit:

    Frost should be very viable for mythic + and not significantly worse than UH?
    I am the same way. Never not been top overall damage as frost. Unholy sims higher single target and thats all most ppl look at when they see the rankings. I have no desire to go unholy and its hard getting invites as melee anyway. Im jist sticking to frost and running my own key anyway.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I am the same way. Never not been top overall damage as frost. Unholy sims higher single target and thats all most ppl look at when they see the rankings. I have no desire to go unholy and its hard getting invites as melee anyway. Im jist sticking to frost and running my own key anyway.
    I get the feeling the people you run with just aren't that good then.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../25#dataset=95

    Frost is literally shit tier DPS in M+. In fact, they're doing far better in raids:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...5&difficulty=4

  4. #4
    High Overlord Ifrica's Avatar
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    Segus, logs don't mean everything, first of all it's comparing 100k frost vs 500k unholy parses, plus, got to keep in mind not everyone uses logs, perhaps the ones logging frost are the ones that suck and skew the data. everything is situational, especially in m+.
    I'm a frost DK myself, not going to say that we are better than unholy in m+, but i do have a feeling that frost is better suited for m+ than raids.

  5. #5
    Epic! Ihsatakar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ifrica View Post
    Segus, logs don't mean everything, first of all it's comparing 100k frost vs 500k unholy parses, plus, got to keep in mind not everyone uses logs, perhaps the ones logging frost are the ones that suck and skew the data. everything is situational, especially in m+.
    I'm a frost DK myself, not going to say that we are better than unholy in m+, but i do have a feeling that frost is better suited for m+ than raids.
    The other poster linked at 95th percentile, i.e. only the best quality players of both UH and frost being compared. The difference gets more and more massive the higher key you go as UH particularly shines when packs live a long time.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Ifrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsatakar View Post
    The other poster linked at 95th percentile, i.e. only the best quality players of both UH and frost being compared. The difference gets more and more massive the higher key you go as UH particularly shines when packs live a long time.
    Ah I didn't see that, i take back my comment about bad players screwing up the logs then
    I did notice in my own gameplay that longer fights are indeed not in the advantage of frost, i can do very decent amount of burst and get big packs down fast on lower keys, but when the duration is longer, my DPS drops steadily. It's a bit better since i got the frostwyrm legendary, which is (imo) superuseful on m+ with the freeze.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    I get the feeling the people you run with just aren't that good then.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../25#dataset=95

    Frost is literally shit tier DPS in M+. In fact, they're doing far better in raids:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...5&difficulty=4
    Yes, most of the best dks go unholy so they have better logs. What are you trying to say. Im being sincere, help me understand what the graph you linked means lol. What are the "points"
    Last edited by ellieg; 2020-12-22 at 02:31 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Yes, most of the best dks go unholy so they have better logs. What are you trying to say
    As pointed out above, that's the 95th percentile, meaning the best of both Frost and Unholy. Or are you implying that Frost is on such rocket scientist levels of difficulty that even the current best Frost DKs are dogshit?

    Yes, FotM will cause the better players to swap specs, but that'd create a difference of 1-2%, not the massive cliff of A tier vs F tier you see in the stats.

    What else do you want to go by than curated statistics?

  9. #9
    I agree that Unholy is better, but I just cannot play it optimally. I do as much damage as possible and when I am attacking a dummy I sim about 1K higher DPS as unholy but in practice in a M+ or Raid I am about 300-500 DPS higher as Frost. Now I have been playing Frost DK since Legion so that may be part of it. and I despise the fact that I have to deal with a shitty pet that seems to die all the time.

    I also have the issue of having the 2nd Best Memory for Frost and the 3rd and 4th Best for UNholy, and Id argue that Pharamones is not going to be 3rd best in practice as you have to stand in DnD to take advantage of it. But I will wait to see if the World Boss this week is the one that Drops the UH Memory and Hope I get it.
    Last edited by schwank05; 2020-12-22 at 02:37 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    As pointed out above, that's the 95th percentile, meaning the best of both Frost and Unholy. Or are you implying that Frost is on such rocket scientist levels of difficulty that even the current best Frost DKs are dogshit?

    Yes, FotM will cause the better players to swap specs, but that'd create a difference of 1-2%, not the massive cliff of A tier vs F tier you see in the stats.

    What else do you want to go by than curated statistics?
    No I'm stupid. Please help me to understand what the "points" means. I understand the 95% percentile but what are they comparing?

  11. #11
    Frost is ok. Worse than UH, but still decent.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    I get the feeling the people you run with just aren't that good then.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../25#dataset=95

    Frost is literally shit tier DPS in M+. In fact, they're doing far better in raids:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...5&difficulty=4
    The fire mage has a normalized score of 100, but 175 max points. What is the 175?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    Frost is ok. Worse than UH, but still decent.
    It's the second-worst m+ spec in the game according to Warcaftlogs. How bad would it have to be for you to say it's bad?
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    It's the second-worst m+ spec in the game according to Warcaftlogs. How bad would it have to be for you to say it's bad?
    That figure is representation, not performance. Frost could very well be +/-5% of unholy numbers wise but if 9/10 players are unholy its easy to incorrectly draw conclusions that frost is bad when it may perform better than most other DPS specs.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoeth View Post
    That figure is representation, not performance. Frost could very well be +/-5% of unholy numbers wise but if 9/10 players are unholy its easy to incorrectly draw conclusions that frost is bad when it may perform better than most other DPS specs.
    This is how I was interpreting the data. Frost and unholy gear are very similar, they are both melee, and their rotations are both not that hard. If 1 is doing better, its very easy to switch to that. No reason to play the other spec unless you enjoy it a ton more.

    Id be more interested in aoe, cleave, dungeon slice sim comparisons. And then see how realistic those sims are when dealing with mechanics.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by wibeg View Post
    Frost is stronger than UH in mythic + right? I got a guy telling me i should switch to UH why am i playing frost?

    I literally do top dps or up to par with the top dps in every mythic run I do. Am I missing something or was that guy just clueless?

    Edit:

    Frost should be very viable for mythic + and not significantly worse than UH?
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25#

    According to logs UH is outperforming in Mythic+ and 25 man.
    Last edited by Cempa; 2020-12-22 at 05:51 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by wibeg View Post
    Frost is stronger than UH in mythic + right? I got a guy telling me i should switch to UH why am i playing frost?

    I literally do top dps or up to par with the top dps in every mythic run I do. Am I missing something or was that guy just clueless?

    Edit:

    Frost should be very viable for mythic + and not significantly worse than UH?
    What level keys are you running? frost is decent at low levels but once you get to higher keys where both (a) multi-pack pulls are necessary and (b) mobs live a lot longer, unholy pulls ahead by a significant margin. The fact that a lot of unholy's damage is near uncapped for AoE target where as frost the majority of frost damage is soft-capped at 5 (scythe is hard capped, howling blast is sqrt scaling) is a huge factor when pushing the highest keys whereas its ramp up time means it is mediocre at lower keys

    Odds are the guy you are referring to is parroting some streamer or another does not make one of you wrong, rather that vastly different levels of play require different strategies.

  18. #18
    For Frost we have to specify. DW BOS is doing OK, it's lower middle of the pack in raids, but it's not terrible. For 2H its only place right now is in PVP, and it isn't doing too hot in there either.
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    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
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  19. #19
    My issue with Frost in M+ is to get max potential out of it you need to have Breath of Sindragosa and Dual Wield. 1) I hate BoS and 2) I don't really like DW and being able to be 2h Frost was a godsend so I only need 1 weapon to play all 3 specs.

    Unholy I'm not a fan of how much power they're pushing into the minion and Scourge Strike / Clawing Shadows doesn't feel like it has the impact it once did in Legion. But that being said... it's more enjoyable to me than BoS DW Frost. The AOE potential of UH is wild, especially with baseline Epidemic, and can't be understated.

    If 2h Frost becomes competitive... no reliance on pet, and heavy-hitting 2h Obliterates... that will be my main dps spec. But for right now playing that in any remotely challenging PVE environment is holding your group back. If I solo Torghast I'm fine with gimping myself to play what I enjoy though.

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans msdos's Avatar
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    Frost got jebaited and trolled, that's all there is to it. The 2h playstyle was dangled in front of us like it was gonna be something, it ain't shit.

    So now I need 2 one handers that I didn't plan on going for, I get to basically forget about Obliteration and respec back to the literal BFA spec and babysit Cold Heart and babysit the Breath timer.
    I'd rather play BoS than Unholy. The Army of the Dead/Dark Xformation cooldown is just another jebait thing I can't be arsed to give a crap about anymore. The only difference between Unholy and BM now is Unholy does insane freaking AOE damage, they both basically play the same. Scrunching Unholy Assault down to what it is didn't work, the spec still feels like a cooldown ramper and you press cooldown after cooldown after cooldown.

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