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  1. #81
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    In the context it's used in? To refer to the player character, a singular person?

    It absolutely is in fact singular in that usage of it.
    Even if that usage of "you" is singular, it neither states nor really even implies there's only a single Maw Walker in existence. It could simply mean the faction leader NPC's trust the PC in question with Maw-related things because they're the one who saved them and also a Maw Walker. Other Maw Walkers may abound but didn't have a role in the specific PC's overall story.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Yeah, Story is pretty much fucked at this point. Coherence was thrown out of the window a while ago.
    I remember Legion with millions of ashbringers running around. Because of that the weapon lost its coolness sadly, altho its still a badass sword. I wont ever use it again on my pala .. shame.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I remember Legion with millions of ashbringers running around. Because of that the weapon lost its coolness sadly, altho its still a badass sword. I wont ever use it again on my pala .. shame.
    Yeah if THAT would be only issue we have today, I would gladly trade

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You know the game is translated into other languages that are a lot clearer on the matter right?



    I've yet to see convincing evidence of either being the case and quite a few story conflicts that would suggest otherwise.
    What conflicts?

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Yeah if THAT would be only issue we have today, I would gladly trade
    Ofc.. but thats just one spec.. should I continue? Lol
    But you can repeat what you wrote every year.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Multiple mortals, but only one Maw Walker. Of course, that'll just result in confusing reports of which one exactly was the Maw Walker. Intentionally confusing reports, that is. Just like nobody can get straight whether the Champion of Azeroth was Horde or Alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's not actually being shown in the game, though. There's only one Maw Walker and a bunch of other mortals that come in after the Ebon Blade opens portals from Oribos. So saying "lore wise it's stated" is actually incorrect, the lore says there's only one Maw Walker. The PC is referred to as the Maw Walker, not a Maw Walker.

    I just want to point out my observations here and say this is false. I agree with the poster, that the game doesn't really show much of the other player characters and for the most part focuses on your character. But at the end of Theater of Pain, when they're congratulating you they refer to the party as "Maw Walkers" plural.

    So the game does have a point of lore confirming there are multiple maw walkers.

    What it doesn't have is that an npc or voiced character explicitly stating "You are not the only Maw walker." So yeah, you could play all of the shadowlands mistakenly thinking its a single player story because they never shoved in your face that there are other players. But an absence of proof does not equal a proof of absence. Until an NPC refers to you as the "Single, sole, ONE AND ONLY Maw Walker" then it's false. The game just never explicitly said "You ARENT", its only hinted or implied by dialogue like in ToP.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Corroc View Post
    Little bit offtopic but if the Venthyr and Kyrian campaigns overlap this much (compared to night fae), its pretty much confirmed that the next raid is going to be Bastion raid. They are already setting it up.
    Venthyr overlap with Necrolords much more. And that part of their questline also happens after Denathrius is already dealt with in-story, making it a more likely candidate for a build-up for a future story.

    And speaking of the Venthyr/Necrolord overlap (well, the first stage of it that was available so far), there are actually contradictions there that can't be explained with the usual, predictable and already existing in this thread "welp, the Kyrian forge was just retaken more than once because Blizzard kami-sama would never make a mistake". Because in the Venthyr version of the questline Kael'thas is purged of his sinstone before he goes on the Maldraxxi hunt. Moreover, Kael didn't go on Maldraxxi hunt knowing there were actual Maldraxxi forces in Revendreth.

    He and the player just randomly stumbled upon the camp after stowing away on the Tithelord's carriage. And even getting on the Tithelord's carriage wasn't the plan as he didn't know we'd stumble upon him personally either. All he and the Venthyr knew at that point was that Tithelord had some deal with a Lich and that included someone smuggling weapons from Maldraxxus into Revendreth, at which point Kael decided to investigate things further.

    Speaking of which, the Accuser left shortly afterwards the purging of Kael'thas, leaving him in the player's care. At which point Kael convinced us to investigate the matter further to provide the Venthyr with a "selfless act" to prove how oh, so redeemed he is. So, the player and Kael went to the town where Tithelord meets with his contact from Maldraxxus, as that was the only clue they had. And, like I already said, they just so stumbled on one such meeting, then stowed away on Tithelord's carriage, stumbled upon the Maldraxxi camp and dealt with it. After which you return to Sinfall and inform the Venthyr of the whole thing.

    Yet in the Necrolord version when Draka goes with the player to deal with the same camp in Revendreth Accuser is there to greet her, being fully aware of the camp already. And when she introduces her to Kael and offers his aid in this mission, Kael is still carrying his sinstone, meaning he hasn't gone through the cleansing ritual yet. Then you go kill the exact same named Dredgers and the same named Lich as you do in the Venthyr version. Obviously there is no Draka in sight in the Venthyr version either.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-01-04 at 06:12 PM.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  8. #88
    I'm sure someone has already said this, if not then I will: Yes, technically only one is canon. The player character is a unique character within the world. There's not millions of over powered "champions". Lore-wise, the other players you interact with are just soldiers within the Horde and Alliance, with yours being the stand out strongest among them. So the covenant you chose is the one whose story is canon.

    Not only has Blizzard stated this, but its also shown during Legion, when you go to deactivate Sargeras's sword, and you are there with lore figures representing the other class halls, all wielding artifact weapons.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Someone doesn't understand the royal use of plural words.
    That someone is you. Majestic plural is about using the plural pronouns when referring to oneself, not about using plural nouns when referring to someone else. Mawsworn referring to the players around them in what is a group activity as Maw Walkers has nothing to do with the royal we. Making your following reply to @Engal here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If we're going to nitpick words of the English language, yes, I expect the people who nitpick the words to know what they're speaking about.
    quite ironic.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-01-04 at 06:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Same reason you can be a newbie fresh out of Exile's Reach and can enter Legion content to immediately be given the Ashbringer and command of all Paladins everywhere or whatever. What little canon there is about the PC just assumes a direction continuation between expansions.
    Exile's Reach takes place after Legion though, so canonically no.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We still have no real idea why the Maw Walker can do it. The HoA link is merely speculation, and only by the community, in the lore nobody has any clue. For that matter, for a new character it's perfectly possible to enter the Maw without ever getting the Heart, even on a new account.
    And a character that hasn't done Legion somehow still appears as an NPC defending the temple of Elune in Ysera's recurring nightmare about her attack on it. Blizzard being sloppy is nothing new, neither does it prove or disprove anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    I'm sure someone has already said this, if not then I will: Yes, technically only one is canon. The player character is a unique character within the world. There's not millions of over powered "champions". Lore-wise, the other players you interact with are just soldiers within the Horde and Alliance, with yours being the stand out strongest among them. So the covenant you chose is the one whose story is canon.

    Not only has Blizzard stated this, but its also shown during Legion, when you go to deactivate Sargeras's sword, and you are there with lore figures representing the other class halls, all wielding artifact weapons.
    Given how each and every Class has an NPC stand-in for Sargeras' sword quest, if anything it indicates no player is actually canon and we're just stand-ins for characters that Blizzard usually just doesn't bother specifying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Xylense View Post
    I just want to point out my observations here and say this is false. I agree with the poster, that the game doesn't really show much of the other player characters and for the most part focuses on your character. But at the end of Theater of Pain, when they're congratulating you they refer to the party as "Maw Walkers" plural.
    Or that one is the mess-up and all the quests that imply the PC is the only one by dint of having to be involved if anything needs doing in the Maw are better evidence.

    There isn't an absence of evidence here. There's evidence of absence, specificially that there's nobody else who can sensibly operate in the Maw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Speaking of which, the Accuser left shortly afterwards the purging of Kael'thas, leaving him in the player's care. At which point Kael convinced us to investigate the matter further to provide the Venthyr with a "selfless act" to prove how oh, so redeemed he is. So, the player and Kael went to the town where Tithelord meets with his contact from Maldraxxus, as that was the only clue they had. And, like I already said, they just so stumbled on one such meeting, then stowed away on Tithelord's carriage, stumbled upon the Maldraxxi camp and dealt with it. After which you return to Sinfall and inform the Venthyr of the whole thing.
    Ugh, that had me rolling my eyes all the way from Darkhaven back to Sinfall. Yeah, sure, you're oh so selfless and redeemed. Shut up and throw more fireballs.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Only when you explain why you decided to copypaste the same post 36 251 times.
    Obviously I copy pasted the question because nobody explained where the amazing storylines were, although I asked them 36 251 times.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Lore wise it's stated that there's many champions from azeroth that have escaped the maw. Those champions have joined different covenants. The story isn't about a single maw walker but many.
    Then why have the title Maw Walker in the first place? It's a stupid title if it's nothing special, why not just call them Champions like before?

    Heck, Jaina, Thrall, Baine etc are all Maw Walkers because they have walked the Maw. Why make the player character distinct like that? And now you're telling me there are many people with the title. Why have the title then? It's stupid.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    Then why have the title Maw Walker in the first place? It's a stupid title if it's nothing special, why not just call them Champions like before?

    Heck, Jaina, Thrall, Baine etc are all Maw Walkers because they have walked the Maw. Why make the player character distinct like that? And now you're telling me there are many people with the title. Why have the title then? It's stupid.
    1. The painfully obvious reason anyone could see. Writing a story reason for why you, and all other "main characters" of which there is a canonically vague amount, are all called Maw Walker gives them an easy way to refer everyone as such and make sense within the story. It's literally no different than any time they called us Champion or order hall leader title X except it's tailored to the Shadowlands. Seems weird to die on this hill now for what amounts to no real reason. The only practical difference is rather than a singular entity doing literally all the things they gave the title to refer to a group of Azerothians who escaped rather than one single lynchpin that does all important story things.

    2. You for some reason confuse more than 1 person having done it as automatically not special. In the grand scheme of essentially near infinite life forms going through all total afterlives if even 1,000 "Maw Walkers" happened in a short time frame it would be extremely special.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2021-01-04 at 06:43 PM.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Even if that usage of "you" is singular, it neither states nor really even implies there's only a single Maw Walker in existence. It could simply mean the faction leader NPC's trust the PC in question with Maw-related things because they're the one who saved them and also a Maw Walker. Other Maw Walkers may abound but didn't have a role in the specific PC's overall story.
    Which returns to:

    In BLIZZARD'S lore, there is one Maw Walker. Why? Because only the PC is ever referenced as one. The PC is the facilitator through which we experience Blizzard's Warcraft lore - Their story is the perspective of the lore we get. Other Maw Walkers can exist in whatever headcanon you choose to believe, (That is, if and until Blizzard decides to put a descriptor to what makes it possible to travel through the Waystone, but that's an issue I don't expect them to address) but in BLIZZARD'S lore, there is only one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Not only has Blizzard stated this, but its also shown during Legion, when you go to deactivate Sargeras's sword, and you are there with lore figures representing the other class halls, all wielding artifact weapons.
    While this is correct, you're drawing the wrong conclusion.

    By this logic, ALL Class Halls are canon even if only one held the Heart of Azeroth, as other champions took up the mantle of the other Class Halls/Artifacts in the meanwhile and fulfilled their stories offscreen. Thus, all Covenants are canon, even if the one and only Maw Walker only joined one - Because other souls would join the other Covenants and complete their stories off screen, even if they weren't Maw Walkers. (We know other souls are coming and going, as Talia, Shandris, and various other NPCs have come through the Ebon Blade's portal since we arrived in Oribos.) Presumably, all events which require travel to the Maw would use the Maw Walker regardless of which Covenant they chose is all - And since others can follow out of the Maw, they can take whomever needs to go in and out with them.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-01-05 at 01:02 AM.
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  17. #97
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Which returns to:

    In BLIZZARD'S lore, there is one Maw Walker. Why? Because only the PC is ever referenced as one. The PC is the facilitator through which we experience Blizzard's Warcraft lore - Their story is the perspective of the lore we get. Other Maw Walkers can exist in whatever headcanon you choose to believe, (That is, if and until Blizzard decides to put a descriptor to what makes it possible to travel through the Waystone, but that's an issue I don't expect them to address) but in BLIZZARD'S lore, there is only one.
    The remaining Eternal Ones address the presence of multiple other mortals in the Shadowlands, and since there's only one way to get to the Shadowlands as mortal in terms of canon it stands that there are other Maw Walkers active. There's also the developers' word on the matter:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    In Shadowlands, the player's character becomes known as a Maw Walker, though this is not a singular title; fictionally, a number heroes of Azeroth like yourself have demonstrated the ability to enter and leave the Maw. We want a sense that it will take many heroes working together and strengthening all four covenants if there is to be any hope of achieving victory over the Jailer. (Source)
    Definitionally, Sylvanas is herself also a Maw Walker as she also has free reign to travel to and from the Maw.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The remaining Eternal Ones address the presence of multiple other mortals in the Shadowlands, and since there's only one way to get to the Shadowlands as mortal in terms of canon it stands that there are other Maw Walkers active.
    And the portal to and from Azeroth that the Knights of the Ebon Blade were allowed to open. You know - The way Shandris and Talia both got there, safely, without going through the Maw, and was conveniently opened right after the first mortals that the Speaker had seen wandered into Oribos. Making it not stand to reason at all that there are multiple Maw Walkers, since there is in fact another way for mortals to reach Oribos without going to the Maw.

    Not that this would be the first time they ignored their own "suicide mission, no going back" intro to reintroduce the same cast of characters moments after it's conclusion via portal magic.

    There's also the developers' word on the matter:
    Which is older than the quest text that got removed from the quest referencing the single Maw Walker, so this has clearly changed on more than one occasion. A more than reasonable explanation for a few text slip ups referencing more than one.

    Definitionally, Sylvanas is herself also a Maw Walker as she also has free reign to travel to and from the Maw.
    "Definitionally," Jaina, Thrall, Baine, and all of the main characters are also Maw Walkers, because by definition, Maw Walker refers to a mortal who is able to escape the Maw - Yes, even just once, and unrelated to the Waystone, because the Maw is meant to be inescapable.

    Sylvanas cannot activate the Waystone, nor can any other person than the PC, who is a singular person in the lore. (And presumably the First Ones minus the Jailer, since the Waystone is in some way related to them.) When referencing the singular "Maw Walker" we are speaking about the singular character in the lore who can activate the Waystone and thus open the path between the Maw and Oribos, making them able to literally leave at will.

    And no - We don't know Sylvanas has the ability to leave at will. We know she CAN leave, because of the Jailer's Forsworn, the Val'kyr, and/or powers that we haven't been shown yet, but we don't know she has free reign or can leave at will. She hasn't been shown to have that ability, and for her to gain that ability from the Jailer who also cannot escape the Maw seems a little odd, no?
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-01-05 at 10:30 AM.
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  19. #99
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And the portal to and from Azeroth that the Knights of the Ebon Blade were allowed to open. You know - The way Shandris and Talia both got there, safely, without going through the Maw, and was conveniently opened right after the first mortals that the Speaker had seen wandered into Oribos. Making it not stand to reason at all that there are multiple Maw Walkers, since there is in fact another way for mortals to reach Oribos without going to the Maw.

    Not that this would be the first time they ignored their own "suicide mission, no going back" intro to reintroduce the same cast of characters moments after it's conclusion via portal magic.
    Possibly, but the developer's quote would supersede that understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Which is older than the quest text that got removed from the quest referencing the single Maw Walker, so this has clearly changed on more than one occasion. A more than reasonable explanation for a few text slip ups referencing more than one.
    I don't think a quest's text supersedes a direct reference from a developer speaking specifically to the presence of multiple Maw Walkers and the overarching narrative goal of the title. Canonically, we know there are multiple Maw Walkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    "Definitionally," Jaina, Thrall, Baine, and all of the main characters are also Maw Walkers, because by definition, Maw Walker refers to a mortal who is able to escape the Maw - Yes, even just once, and unrelated to the Waystone, because the Maw is meant to be inescapable.

    Sylvanas cannot activate the Waystone, nor can any other person than the PC, who is a singular person in the lore. (And presumably the First Ones minus the Jailer, since the Waystone is in some way related to them.) When referencing the singular "Maw Walker" we are speaking about the singular character in the lore who can activate the Waystone and thus open the path between the Maw and Oribos, making them able to literally leave at will.

    And no - We don't know Sylvanas has the ability to leave at will. We know she CAN leave, because of the Jailer's Forsworn, the Val'kyr, and/or powers that we haven't been shown yet, but we don't know she has free reign or can leave at will. She hasn't been shown to have that ability, and for her to gain that ability from the Jailer who also cannot escape the Maw seems a little odd, no?
    Jaina, Thrall, Baine, and the rest of the trapped NPC's can't leave the Maw on their own, however; they need the assistance of a Maw Walker to do so. Canonically the Waystone seems to react to those who bear the Heart of Azeroth, borne by "Azeroth's greatest heroes and champions" as a gift from Azeroth herself (of which there are also canonically multiple). Sylvanas was also referred to as "the first Maw Walker" by John Hight during the Shadowlands Q&A at BlizzCon 2019, so it appears her ability to move to and from the Maw more or less at will grants her the title, at least technically.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Possibly, but the developer's quote would supersede that understanding.
    If it weren't contradicted in game.

    I don't think a quest's text supersedes a direct reference from a developer speaking specifically to the presence of multiple Maw Walkers and the overarching narrative goal of the title. Canonically, we know there are multiple Maw Walkers.
    You do not canonically know that, because nothing in game canonically tells you that. The Blizzard quote existed before the quest text, the quest text was then added suggesting the Blizzard quote was inaccurate, now that quest text has changed again. No, that doesn't mean it changed back, it means they changed it again, and as to what it is now, nobody can say since they chose not to update anyone on why the changes were made in the first place. We can't even say for sure if they were planning to have only one Maw Walker at any point, but we CAN say that there's evidence that the Blizzard quote isn't accurate stemming from additions to the game AFTER the quote was made.

    Canonically the Waystone seems to react to those who bear the Heart of Azeroth, borne by "Azeroth's greatest heroes and champions" as a gift from Azeroth herself (of which there are also canonically multiple). Sylvanas was also referred to as "the first Maw Walker" by John Hight during the Shadowlands Q&A at BlizzCon 2019, so it appears her ability to move to and from the Maw more or less at will grants her the title, at least technically.
    This is entirely a guess based entirely on a guess. You both a) Don't know there were mutliple Hearts of Azeroth (No, canonically, we do not know if there were multiple and there SHOULDN'T have been multiple if there was only one key to N'zoth's prison, which is what we ultimately learned the Heart actually was - And don't point to "heores and champions" again, I don't want to have to explain the royal use of plural words again), and b) don't have any connection between the Waystone and the Heart.

    Not only that, but you'd be going against Blizzard's own statement saying there is absolutely no tie between the Titans (Those who created the Heart) and the First Ones. (Those who created the Waystone) Blizzard already confirmed there is no connection there.

    And yes, we know Sylvanas was the first Maw Walker, we also know the title Maw Walker just means "Left the Maw at least once." Why do you keep ignoring that? That doesn't mean anything toward HOW she left. It has always been presumed the Jailer is the one who allowed her to leave, but even that makes no sense considering he himself cannot leave.

    Jaina is a "Maw Walker" but she can't leave the Maw at will. Baine is a Maw Walker, but can't leave the Maw at will. Thrall is a Maw Walker, but can't leave the Maw at will.

    The only character who has been shown to have the ability to leave the Maw at will, is the PC, through the Waystone which no one else can use as far as anyone is aware. Unfortunately, that doesn't have a title other than "Maw Walker," just like everyone else.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-01-05 at 02:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

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