So is Shadowlands good?

[kamuimac]

What I quoted from you was a standalone system created for your solo or small group people, or as you said "don't want to pug m+-es" - this is what triggered me tbh. Which could have been torghast. That I strongly disagree with. I mean creating a whole standalone feature/system just for solo people or 2 people or 3 people who don't want to pug m+-es, and hope they would like. I don't want to pug m+-es, as a solo player, so I fit in your category, so I'm not doing it. It's not a big deal. Now upgrades are a whole different thing. And we actually have upgrades for the sanctum gear, which is kind of shit but still. I agree that gear reward for solo players is kind of shit in shadowlands for mains. For alts with the renown catchup? Its a dream.
Everything costs money. Creating art is the most expensive thing in the game, so every time you want to divide the budget into more sections for individuals, you are taking away budget from everyone else. And I'm saying this as someone in your category.

the answer is pretty simple

becasue that 1 our of 4 group that prefer solo play and solo quing is bigger then whole 3 other group combined

if you neglect majority of your players its a disaster waiting to happen

just like it did when 5 mln players left in first 3 months of WoD and god only knows how many left in next months because we never got official subs after that.

the same will repeat in SL - just much much faster - as players learn from their mistake - and wont stick to see how it plays out like they did in WoD.

[Lei]

the answer is pretty simple

becasue that 1 our of 4 group that prefer solo play and solo quing is bigger then whole 3 other group combined

if you neglect majority of your players its a disaster waiting to happen

just like it did when 5 mln players left in first 3 months of WoD and god only knows how many left in next months because we never got official subs after that.

the same will repeat in SL - just much much faster - as players learn from their mistake - and wont stick to see how it plays out like they did in WoD.

Tell me what endgame content solo players have had in previous expansions created basically just for them.
What we have now is a very shitty combination of overall gear starvation from m+-es and raids as well, and not really thought out reward structure outside of these, and seemingly buggy ilevels from world quests (I'm still getting ilevel 158 stuff from wqs). But these have nothing to do with what I said.

[Athulua]

Yes its good.

BFA was the bad one. Especially patch 8.0. Holy shit that was bad. The worst WoW has ever been. I noped out of it after mere 4 hours after capping my character.

SL though? Ye its fun.

[swatsonqt]

WoW was never about buying gear. And if it had any buyable gear, it was never at the start of the expansion or at the start of a BIG patch.

The only thing you can target now, it the thing WoW always had targetable, and that is the LOOT drop per boss. Again, my most memorable gear drop and enjoyable is the sword Nathrezim Mindblade that dropped after 7-10 runs in Kara.

Yeah, it is mindblowing to start playing in half Legion and consider BFA the best expansion since it is the only one you went through from start to finish.
Mostly nostalgia, even if so early.

Most people tend to think that the best expansion is the one they first fully experienced.

In the past, WoW gearing was alot slower and HARDER then it is today. Today is just a median between the past and the last 4 years (maybe).




Well, I think this is the problem right there. People thinking HC raiding should be made "casually"

By curiosity, what is your current ilvl ?

i don't necessary want hc to be casual. the problem is the community changed. Nobody wants to progress hc when there is Mythic out there. So you kinda have to adapt and nowadays nobody wants to stick together for a hc raid team. me included. i am part of the original problem, i know that. but in the end we have to live with the system/community that we got...

i actually got lucky in the last 17 runs we did since my original post and got 1 item from these plus a little bit from the nhc raid we cleared so i am now at an unbelievable (please take a seat you will need it) - 192. To be fair some of my friends had more luck and are now around 200-205. But for me the system still sucks

[Hibiki]

Tell me what endgame content solo players have had in previous expansions created basically just for them.

Horrific Visions, 470 ilvl gear from solo instance. Almost as good as mythic raid gear in BfA

[Kel_Sceptic]

depends how you look at it. if potential expansion could have had 6-8 mln active subs and has 1 mln its complete financial disaster

Yeah, really depends on perspective. Those investors, when they see that WoW still gets 3.7 milion sales on day 1, being a 16 year old IP (as a MMORPG, that is), I think they wonder themselfs "How the fk is that still happening ?"

For me it is a real miracle to see this game stil in Top 2, BUT at the same time, there are only TOP 2 when it comes to MMORPG of this calibre.

The rest have gone in to the niche zone, SWtoR (approximately 135,000 monthly players), Eve Online (approximately 300,000 monthly players), Black Desert Online (approximately 350,000 monthly players), Guild Wars 2 (approximately 510,000 monthly active players), The EsO ( 500,000 monthly active players), FFXIV (approximately 640,000 monthly players), WoW (1.7 million to 3.4 million subscribed players). bestreamer.com/gaming/most-played-mmorpg-2019/


I belive FFXIV has 2-4 milion players. WoW has 2-4 milion players. For a dying genre, I say this is a real succes, and those that still hang on the TBC/WotLK peak numbers, are, in my own opinion, as @kaminaris uses his favorite word, delusional.

IMHO yes we need that because there is a subset of people that prefer to do things solo or with like one, maybe two other people. They don't WANT to pug/apply to a M+ group, or join LFR with randos. I do agree that there's a bit much difficulty wise but that entire demographic is ignored with anything meaningful, just basically busywork (e.g. world quests). Torghast could have given those people something parallel (slower, obv) with the other endgame activities. The way I see it there are 4 demographics in WoW:

1) Solo/small group (e.g. someone who only plays with their spouse)
2) Group (e.g. dungeons)
3) Large Group (e.g. raids)
4) PVP

Currently 3 of those 4 have endgame content: Group has M+, Large Group has raids, and PVPers have RBGs and Arena. It's only that first group that doesn't get anything meaningful, just what amounts to chores for little or no reward. That's why I think going back to an upgradeable point system works the best. Each activity can award some points relative to its challenge, with a cap to prevent people burning out thinking they need to do everything. So the endgame becomes "pick the activity that you enjoy the most and do it" and you get a relative reward that will give you an upgrade. The person doing solo content will take longer than the person doing M+ or raids to get their upgrades (i.e. the main reward for doing harder content is you get things faster), but they aren't locked out of it completely without doing something they don't enjoy.

I think that if Blizzard has a small trace of self respect, should keep this game in the category he is, that is MMORPG (massively multiplayer online game).
And I'm saying that while I'm a solo player, that PUGs Arena 2s, not doing any other group content (M+ or Raid).

I mean, sure, I did enjoy the challanges we got from 1. Mage Tower, 2. Visions and 3. Torghast Layer 8 (before nerf).

1. Mage Tower - we got the awsome skins that are not unlockable after legion.
2. Visions - I only enjoyed the gear (somehow), just because there was no PvP vedors in BFA, but I would have done it just for the challange even if there was no gear involved
3. Thorgast Layer 8, done it on reset day when it was still a thing; it felt as good as succeding a 5mask run in Visions.

BUT, Thorgast Twisted Corridors are not opened yet, and that will be the solo challenging content that will reward cosmetics and mounts.


So when did WoW had solo content that was rewarded with high end gear (except gear shower BFA) ?

AND P.S. don't get me wrong, I don't mind if there will be gear from Thorgast. I just accept that it is mostly possible to not have, and I don't mind that either As I said multiple times, I enjoy this "part of my life", since it is more then just a game to me, with its good and bad parts, as long as the good parts represent not less then 60-70%, and the bad parts 30-MAX40%.

[kaminaris]

Horrific Visions, 470 ilvl gear from solo instance. Almost as good as mythic raid gear in BfA

Funny thing is, blizzard said torghast will be worthy successor for solo players. Pffft, didn't work out. No rewards for scrubs.

[meowfurion]

I'm personally disappointed in this expansion so far.

Gates upon gates upon gates upon reputations upon dailies upon reputations and gates......layered with actual TIME gates on top of CURRENCY gates that aren't available but for a limited amount per week layered upon reputation gates, and then throw the massive loot drought where you aren't geared enough to go into M+ (Unless you're an MM hunter player who just beats their D against the keyboard and churns out high numbers).

I try to go into M0's at ilvl 180, DECLINE DECLINE DECLINE DECLINE because I am a feral druid. I'm a returning player and rerolled as horde and don't have a guild yet. Very low horde population on Proudmore.....

So I"m not having a very good time so far. Rerolling is a chore........I log in and wonder "why am I even doing this? These WQ's aren't fun...." and growing seeds in the Conservatory and getting a "novice satchel" with like 9 fish in it is the most unrewarding, disheartening thing.......

I'm not happy at all with this Xpack. It just feels so unrewarding and low effort.

[Nobleshield]

I'm personally disappointed in this expansion so far.

Gates upon gates upon gates upon reputations upon dailies upon reputations and gates......layered with actual TIME gates on top of CURRENCY gates that aren't available but for a limited amount per week layered upon reputation gates, and then throw the massive loot drought where you aren't geared enough to go into M+ (Unless you're an MM hunter player who just beats their D against the keyboard and churns out high numbers).

I try to go into M0's at ilvl 180, DECLINE DECLINE DECLINE DECLINE because I am a feral druid. I'm a returning player and rerolled as horde and don't have a guild yet. Very low horde population on Proudmore.....

So I"m not having a very good time so far. Rerolling is a chore........I log in and wonder "why am I even doing this? These WQ's aren't fun...." and growing seeds in the Conservatory and getting a "novice satchel" with like 9 fish in it is the most unrewarding, disheartening thing.......

I'm not happy at all with this Xpack. It just feels so unrewarding and low effort.

It really does, doesn't it? And people's attitudes towards parroting meta makes it worse, as you said you get declined for M0 when people were doing that shit at like 160ish because some muppet saw a website say feral druids are bad at high end so they think that means they are bad all over.

It's stupid, and people are stupider.

[Lei]

Horrific Visions, 470 ilvl gear from solo instance. Almost as good as mythic raid gear in BfA

Horrific visions weren't created specifically for solo players. The fact that you could go solo is a huge huge huge addition, but it was created as the end game progression system for everyone.

[unbound]

No.

It's a continued degradation of the game. Legion was at least a semi-serious effort. BfA was lazy, and SL is even lazier.

There are 4 real zones this time in lieu of 6. Same 8 dungeons. Raids are the same combination of "stand here, pew, pew...move there, pew, pew".

They added even more separate currencies to grind to fool idiots into thinking they are doing something meaningful. Anima, freed souls, phantasma, soul dust, renown, infused ruby, medallion of service, sinstone fragments, and stygia in addition to the normal gold and pvp currencies.

You can't mount in the semi-zone (Maw) and doing anything for more than a few minutes in there will have more aggressive things attack you...just to slow things down even more.

Torghast is a rather unimaginative version of island expeditions with some degree of randomization (not nearly as randomized as Blizz PR kept pushing) combined with Diablo mechanics (e.g. destroy vases).

The raid is similar to most other raids. It's fine, but it is certainly not wonderful or inspired.

No new races or classes (BfA didn't really have new races either...reskins without associated zones are not new races).

Covenants add 2 abilities. Conduits and legendaries largely just add power to what you already have. Classes / specs are largely the same as they've been since at least Legion now.

Blizz charged you $40 - $80 for content that used to be released as part of your subscription.

[Sunderella]

I like it as it is now. Maybe in a few patches down the line, if they start adding idiotic systems like essences and corruptions on top other systems I will change my opinion. In fact, the only thing I truly dislike are Torghast which is boring, time consuming and unrewarding and The Maw which seems like a filler zone just for the sake of the SL intro scenario.

[ashblond]

No.

It's a continued degradation of the game. Legion was at least a semi-serious effort. BfA was lazy, and SL is even lazier.

There are 4 real zones this time in lieu of 6. Same 8 dungeons. Raids are the same combination of "stand here, pew, pew...move there, pew, pew".

They added even more separate currencies to grind to fool idiots into thinking they are doing something meaningful. Anima, freed souls, phantasma, soul dust, renown, infused ruby, medallion of service, sinstone fragments, and stygia in addition to the normal gold and pvp currencies.

You can't mount in the semi-zone (Maw) and doing anything for more than a few minutes in there will have more aggressive things attack you...just to slow things down even more.

Torghast is a rather unimaginative version of island expeditions with some degree of randomization (not nearly as randomized as Blizz PR kept pushing) combined with Diablo mechanics (e.g. destroy vases).

The raid is similar to most other raids. It's fine, but it is certainly not wonderful or inspired.

No new races or classes (BfA didn't really have new races either...reskins without associated zones are not new races).

Covenants add 2 abilities. Conduits and legendaries largely just add power to what you already have. Classes / specs are largely the same as they've been since at least Legion now.

Blizz charged you $40 - $80 for content that used to be released as part of your subscription.

Well said, what I feel too.

[meowfurion]

No.

It's a continued degradation of the game. Legion was at least a semi-serious effort. BfA was lazy, and SL is even lazier.

There are 4 real zones this time in lieu of 6. Same 8 dungeons. Raids are the same combination of "stand here, pew, pew...move there, pew, pew".

They added even more separate currencies to grind to fool idiots into thinking they are doing something meaningful. Anima, freed souls, phantasma, soul dust, renown, infused ruby, medallion of service, sinstone fragments, and stygia in addition to the normal gold and pvp currencies.

You can't mount in the semi-zone (Maw) and doing anything for more than a few minutes in there will have more aggressive things attack you...just to slow things down even more.

Torghast is a rather unimaginative version of island expeditions with some degree of randomization (not nearly as randomized as Blizz PR kept pushing) combined with Diablo mechanics (e.g. destroy vases).

The raid is similar to most other raids. It's fine, but it is certainly not wonderful or inspired.

No new races or classes (BfA didn't really have new races either...reskins without associated zones are not new races).

Covenants add 2 abilities. Conduits and legendaries largely just add power to what you already have. Classes / specs are largely the same as they've been since at least Legion now.

Blizz charged you $40 - $80 for content that used to be released as part of your subscription.

You summarized my anger and frustration with this elegantly.

I personally think there is very little excuse in us not getting a Bard, Tinker, or Necromancer class added this go around.

[vashe9]

I hope they'll balance classes, wtf is this ?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/26#

[kamuimac]

Tell me what endgame content solo players have had in previous expansions created basically just for them.
What we have now is a very shitty combination of overall gear starvation from m+-es and raids as well, and not really thought out reward structure outside of these, and seemingly buggy ilevels from world quests (I'm still getting ilevel 158 stuff from wqs). But these have nothing to do with what I said.

np

WoLK - the most popular expansion ever -they got lfd and badge gear to farm - oit was enormously popular .

Cataclysm / MoP - still extremly popular - they got LFR / Flex and VP gear - in the end of MoP VP gear got removed after ToT ... and subs took nosedive (i do see direct corelation there ) since itlv upgrade were not enough to keep them entertained - people need to get gear not upgrades in their hands to be satisfied

WoD - ultimate disaster - - LFR destroyed by making lfr specific sets / no VP gear - 5 mln lost in 3 months - they were trying to save themvlesve by intoducting m0 and tanaan gear - kinda saved remains

Legion - LFR remade nice looking gear put back in , emmisaries which rewarded them good gear , mythic + and TF gear - this kept people playing non stop as it offered them rewards again

BfA - raiders whined but casuals farmed WQ / Emmisaries 24/7/365 + WF had enormous participation also 24/7 - even if you qued at 3 am you could get in without problem

SL - casual content completly destroyed like in WoD - will LFR be enough to keep casuals playing ? doubt it especially that it wont fully unlock for next 6-7 weeks - people will be gone by then

what did casuals get in SL ? Thorgast that gives no rewards ? dont even joke with it.

[meowfurion]

np

WoLK - the most popular expansion ever -they got lfd and badge gear to farm - oit was enormously popular .

Cataclysm / MoP - still extremly popular - they got LFR / Flex and VP gear - in the end of MoP VP gear got removed after ToT ... and subs took nosedive (i do see direct corelation there ) since itlv upgrade were not enough to keep them entertained - people need to get gear not upgrades in their hands to be satisfied

WoD - ultimate disaster - - LFR destroyed by making lfr specific sets / no VP gear - 5 mln lost in 3 months - they were trying to save themvlesve by intoducting m0 and tanaan gear - kinda saved remains

Legion - LFR remade nice looking gear put back in , emmisaries which rewarded them good gear , mythic + and TF gear - this kept people playing non stop as it offered them rewards again

BfA - raiders whined but casuals farmed WQ / Emmisaries 24/7/365 + WF had enormous participation also 24/7 - even if you qued at 3 am you could get in without problem

SL - casual content completly destroyed like in WoD - will LFR be enough to keep casuals playing ? doubt it especially that it wont fully unlock for next 6-7 weeks - people will be gone by then

what did casuals get in SL ? Thorgast that gives no rewards ? dont even joke with it.

Way ahead of you. Already cancelled sub. It's just not enough to do, and the stuff TO do is so boring. .

Nobody:

ABSOLUTELY NOBODY EVER:

Blizzard: HERE IS SOME MORE REPUTATIONS TO SLOWLY UNLOCK TO BE ABLE TO BUY UGLY MOUNTS!!!!

[Lei]

np

WoLK - the most popular expansion ever -they got lfd and badge gear to farm - oit was enormously popular .

Cataclysm / MoP - still extremly popular - they got LFR / Flex and VP gear - in the end of MoP VP gear got removed after ToT ... and subs took nosedive (i do see direct corelation there ) since itlv upgrade were not enough to keep them entertained - people need to get gear not upgrades in their hands to be satisfied

WoD - ultimate disaster - - LFR destroyed by making lfr specific sets / no VP gear - 5 mln lost in 3 months - they were trying to save themvlesve by intoducting m0 and tanaan gear - kinda saved remains

Legion - LFR remade nice looking gear put back in , emmisaries which rewarded them good gear , mythic + and TF gear - this kept people playing non stop as it offered them rewards again

BfA - raiders whined but casuals farmed WQ / Emmisaries 24/7/365 + WF had enormous participation also 24/7 - even if you qued at 3 am you could get in without problem

SL - casual content completly destroyed like in WoD - will LFR be enough to keep casuals playing ? doubt it especially that it wont fully unlock for next 6-7 weeks - people will be gone by then

what did casuals get in SL ? Thorgast that gives no rewards ? dont even joke with it.

Oh, I got it now, you didn't even read my comment you quoted first. or you misquoted me or something.

[Kel_Sceptic]

I think Shadowlands is the most poorly done WoW expansion ever done so far. Not even the lore is worth the try.

People normally says that is too soon to say is good or bad, but if the "main" content of Shadowland is Thorgast and the same features of BFA and Legion, i think is a really lazy and poor design. But what we expected? is 2020....Blizzard worked from home trying to do this expansion....

Oh well, i will wait for the next expansion then.

Well, and you say that based on what ? Since it is obviously you haven't played it.
Torghast content is 1-2Hours per week, depending on your skill.
Another 1-2 hours per week go into the covenant stuff you HAVE TO DO to be up-to-date with your power progression system (renown system).
The rest of the week is free for whatever your heart wishis to do (raid/m+/pvp/wq/collectionables etc.)

[kamuimac]

Well, and you say that based on what ? Since it is obviously you haven't played it.
Torghast content is 1-2Hours per week, depending on your skill.
Another 1-2 hours per week go into the covenant stuff you HAVE TO DO to be up-to-date with your power progression system (renown system).
The rest of the week is free for whatever your heart wishis to do (raid/m+/pvp/wq/collectionables etc.)

so what if its 1-2 hours a week when its just not fun 2 hours.

thats the general problem with SL

nothing feels fun to do . everything feels like a drag just to gate us for sake of gating.