Who went into the Maw, the proper way?

[Otaka]

And the Elemental plane isn't an afterlife either, infact it's man-made by the Keepers, and since elementals can die for real there... even though it's not a natural place or even an after life, im starting to think that none of it really is an afterlife, that we dont see the real afterlife at all.

So what I'm saying is that when someone truly dies for good, Demon in Twisting Nether, Elemental in... man-made elemental planes or souls in Shadowlands, maybe there's a real afterlife behind all of that, that there is no returning from(explains why we dont know of it) and you are just a soul with no power, no way of dying or harming others. Just a soul among souls at peace with no fear of some warlock trying to drink you like a smoothie.

Actually elementals cannot die. Only their identities might disappear but if you kill them (Ragnaros etc.) their form will simply be destroyed and another one will reform later on with different name... you just simply cannot ever kill off elementals, but they do not reform like demons do in the twisting nether because elementals are natives to the real existence.

This was explained in the chronicles, every planet has elemental-forces (the more of it exist the more likely youll see them form into physical beings)... depending on how much element of spirit exists the elementals will remain either peaceful or chaotic, and since azeroth's world soul had absorbed most of the spirit they werent very peaceful, so when the old gods arrived the natives just kept waging endless warfare against eachothers, once one was defeated the others turned on eachother and the weakened one simply regained its strength and rejoined the fight later, it was literally neverending. (when titans arrived the old gods had enslaved the elementals)

The elemental plane as you said is made by keepers, but its not a realm where they can "die"... its a prison. They were imprisoned there so that azeroth could stay safer for the mortal races.
Obviously it takes strong magic and power to get out of the plane (sorcerer-thane thaurissan's ritual for example) and once defeated the elementals are banished back. Overtime they embraced this and created their own domains within.

I would guess if you actually kill ragnaros etc. then another will reform in the real world instead and potentially wreck havoc on mortals... thats why the big named elementals are imprisoned within their elemental domains so such power cannot easily exist in the mortal world.
Not entirely sure about this since ragnaros was killed(?), maybe they just retconned it or maybe we will face a new raggy later once his successor becomes strong enough.

[cparle87]

Meatball kinda dies before, but he's also still alive in BFA and yet he's in the Maw. Not sure if he was one of Sylvanas' targets or if whoever put him there, went based on him exploding in the fighter's guild, not knowing he's still alive xD


Since we know that basically no that no matter how evil you were, you still go to Revendreth instead of the Maw, it makes me wonder what the other end of the qualifications are. Like who maybe shouldn't be in Revendreth, but is there because we were enemies.

For instance, I just learned that Zul'jin is in Revendreth and besides him being a troll which makes that really confusing, I never viewed this guy as "evil", not like I viewed Vashj who was sent to Maldraxxus :/

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Elisande kinda redeems herself after she loses, and would probably go to Revendreth, or maybe even less punishing, since she did what she did because she thought it was the only way to save her people, not really evil.
Gul'dan's soul could have been turned full demon by the end of his fight in Nightwell, or Illidan could have dusted his soul. MU could have been consumed by demons.
Kil's a demon and if his soul wasn't saved by ARgus, he mgiht be perma dead.
Fat lady def in the maw, maybe we'll see her and Helya chillin together

Bwonsamdi only saves trolls who worship him. By the end there Zul'jin was all with the "hell to everyone who isn't Amani" shtick, not to mention using dark powers later revealed to be a faceless general to bolster his forces. Don't think ol' Bwonsamdi would go up to the plate for that one.

[huth]

Actually elementals cannot die. Only their identities might disappear but if you kill them (Ragnaros etc.) their form will simply be destroyed and another one will reform later on with different name...

Their self gets destroyed. They don't "reform", new ones are created from the free elemental energies left over by the old ones death. Not necessarily identical ones, either, and the energies of different ex-elementals may get mixed up in the process.

[Kokolums]

The difference between Revendreth and the Maw is that evil souls that are willing to work for the "Machinery of Death" wind up in Revendreth. Evil souls that refuse the job offer go to the Maw.

[MikeBogina]

I'd say thats more the problem with the concept of "visiting" the afterlife, even in universe the portal to the shadowlands in the portal room can be used by anyone two npc's from stormwind show up in Oribos apparently having decided to try and find their dead relatives.

it reminds me of people freely traveling to Draenor, another planet in the past... in another timeline, like it was normal. But this is the afterlife and people are just freely going there now. Waiting for Goblins to show up and start mining Animite or something xD

Elementals are bound to the elemental planes which is presumambly the reason they go back there, I think the recruitment scenario for dark irons had a group of them trying to ress Ragnaros so i'm not sure if elementals perma die even in the elemental planes.

but the Elemental planes was created for the elementals on Azeroth who worked for the Old Gods. This is a plane of existence on Azeroth, so for instance, where do Elementals on other planets go to where they die? We also for instance have a Firelord for Draenor and Ragnaros to my knowledge, was replaced after he died in Firelands by some other Fire Elemental.
My thing with this, is that Elemental Plane isn't for all Elementals and where is Ragnaros now, if he's not in the firelands?

I assume the power of the soul is relative to the amount of power they had in life due to more "powerful" people having more Anima, So someone like Kael'thas who was an acomplished mage, prince of the blood elves, servant of Illidan & Kil'jaeden, would have a significant amount of Anima and therefore more power even as a soul. Even then Kael'thas starts the story in revendreth bound by the Venthyr and only starts gaining more freedom when he actually starts working with them, so even if the relationship between powerful mortal souls & the inhabitants of the shadowlands still seems to in the latters favor.

Ahh but I dont think it's tied to that specifically. I think it's everything about them, what they've done, what they have felt, what they have experienced and how much they've effected all the living things around them. Kael is powerful in the afterlives yes, he had so much happen to him(in the raid I think they were actually feeding him more anima) but lets take Garrosh for instance, he's called old reliable in the trailer... it's not the first time he's carried a nation on his back and yet he has no powers.

I believe the best way to measure someone's anima is to measure how long their wiki page goes on for. Gonna go ahead and say that the person who probably has the most anima is in the maw and probably being used as a battery or being turned into the Jailer's most powerful champion(no not Anduin).

So my theory of the First Ones and the Eternal Ones and their "Eternal Charge" is this. In the Shadowlands, there was no flesh, there was no stone or metalic beings, there was souls and it was chaotic. The First Ones, the Eternal Ones and the lesser souls inhabited it and the First Ones come up with this crazy idea to turn the souls into living beings, created a process where souls would be born into the physical realm and in their passing, would come back to the shadowlands, filled with Anima from all their experiences. The Eternal Ones were chosen to remain in the Shadowlands and watch over the system and the First Ones were to go to the Physical realm to order and watch over it, they became World Souls. Something happened, they lost their memories, but still the ordering of the universe began to happen. I think the Jailer did something to cause the Titans to awake with no memory, as it's shown he can do this to even the "Runecarver" and maybe that's why he was locked in the maw. His original job being to judge all the souls, now replaced with some artificial looking thing who clearly has his chest thingy. But yeah, so I think we're all souls and that's why we shed the physical forms when we die and how we're tied to the shadowlands normally, and the process is for us to bring anima back to the Shadowlands to keep it going.

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Bwonsamdi only saves trolls who worship him. By the end there Zul'jin was all with the "hell to everyone who isn't Amani" shtick, not to mention using dark powers later revealed to be a faceless general to bolster his forces. Don't think ol' Bwonsamdi would go up to the plate for that one.

Are you sure? I recall Rastakhan not worshiping him when he first died, yet Bwonsamdi still claimed his soul. I dont think it matters if anyone worshiped him, I think he took almost all the souls of trolls and someone as important as Zul'jin who so many trolls revere, including Darkspear "Vengeance for Zul'jin".

And I dont think it was anyone who isn't Amani, he was referring to hating all the horde and alliance and his people work with the Zandalari and other trolls later on.

But like again, the most badass troll ever, should not be in Revendreth xD

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Deathwing! I totally bet he went into the maw! Also, Cho'gal.

[MikeBogina]

Actually elementals cannot die. Only their identities might disappear but if you kill them (Ragnaros etc.) their form will simply be destroyed and another one will reform later on with different name... you just simply cannot ever kill off elementals, but they do not reform like demons do in the twisting nether because elementals are natives to the real existence.

This was explained in the chronicles, every planet has elemental-forces (the more of it exist the more likely youll see them form into physical beings)... depending on how much element of spirit exists the elementals will remain either peaceful or chaotic, and since azeroth's world soul had absorbed most of the spirit they werent very peaceful, so when the old gods arrived the natives just kept waging endless warfare against eachothers, once one was defeated the others turned on eachother and the weakened one simply regained its strength and rejoined the fight later, it was literally neverending. (when titans arrived the old gods had enslaved the elementals)

The elemental plane as you said is made by keepers, but its not a realm where they can "die"... its a prison. They were imprisoned there so that azeroth could stay safer for the mortal races.
Obviously it takes strong magic and power to get out of the plane (sorcerer-thane thaurissan's ritual for example) and once defeated the elementals are banished back. Overtime they embraced this and created their own domains within.

I would guess if you actually kill ragnaros etc. then another will reform in the real world instead and potentially wreck havoc on mortals... thats why the big named elementals are imprisoned within their elemental domains so such power cannot easily exist in the mortal world.
Not entirely sure about this since ragnaros was killed(?), maybe they just retconned it or maybe we will face a new raggy later once his successor becomes strong enough.

I just think the whole idea of the Elemental planes, which only exists on Azeroth and nowhere else isn't properly thought out. And the thing with 2 elements aswell. We see the Elements and we see Elementals, with Elementals being more of a race with the identity and elements being somewhat of a conscious, but having no identity or bias. Very similar to nature and nature creatures(tree dudes).

I wanna say that Ragnaros' identity is in some afterlife, but the power he used is now wielded by whoever is the strongest fire guy in firelands and if he returned, he'd have to take it back, that his resurrected state would be weaker until it took out the other guy. Which probably explains why the current Firelord is MIA(he got banished to the Banishlands)

[Aurabolt]

He propably would have.

Arthas was taken to the Maw right after he died. We may never know for sure.

[FuxieDK]

Well the soul of Argus is what messed up everything when it went through the arbiter. Most of the big bads that we've had were either undead or demon until now basically and demons just cease to exist when they die in the nether so they don't go anywhere that we know of.

Are there any credible sources that Argus broke the Arbiter?

From Emerald Nightmare (Ursoc) to killing Argus is a semi-long period (my guess 6-9 months, as an Expansion is usually 1 year game time) and we haven't anyone (who died after Ursoc) in Shadowlands, with the exceptionof Helya, and we don't know how/why she ended up in the Maw.

Personally, I don't see Helya being sent to Maw by the Arbiter, which means we must have killed her after the Arbiter broke down, i.e. looooong before we killed Argus.

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It was Xavius.

Everything is going according to the N'Zoth plan.
He knew he didn't have any chances against us, so he tricked us.

It COULD work, based on time. Even if your comment is probably a jest.

Xavius is killed (shortly) after Ursoc, but before Helya, which could explain why she is in the Maw.

[cparle87]

Are you sure? I recall Rastakhan not worshiping him when he first died, yet Bwonsamdi still claimed his soul. I dont think it matters if anyone worshiped him, I think he took almost all the souls of trolls and someone as important as Zul'jin who so many trolls revere, including Darkspear "Vengeance for Zul'jin".

And I dont think it was anyone who isn't Amani, he was referring to hating all the horde and alliance and his people work with the Zandalari and other trolls later on.

But like again, the most badass troll ever, should not be in Revendreth xD

He got Rastakhan as part of a deal. As for Zul'jin, it's been said that pretty much every troll tribe except the Sandfury dropped Mueh'zala for Bwonsamdi. Also don't forget trolls universally hate everyone who isn't them. The darkspear and zandalari are the exception. I can totally see Bwon not taking Zul'jin along the same lines of Odyn not taking Ymiron. "Ya done fucked up and I don't want you so off with you."

[Otaka]

I just think the whole idea of the Elemental planes, which only exists on Azeroth and nowhere else isn't properly thought out. And the thing with 2 elements aswell. We see the Elements and we see Elementals, with Elementals being more of a race with the identity and elements being somewhat of a conscious, but having no identity or bias. Very similar to nature and nature creatures(tree dudes).

I wanna say that Ragnaros' identity is in some afterlife, but the power he used is now wielded by whoever is the strongest fire guy in firelands and if he returned, he'd have to take it back, that his resurrected state would be weaker until it took out the other guy. Which probably explains why the current Firelord is MIA(he got banished to the Banishlands)

It is quite properly thought out tbh. The elemental plane was built by the titan-keepers as separate realm similar to how emerald dream is another realm entirely.

Elementals ARE the elements... its like your bonfire became self-aware through nature magic or rather the element of spirit. They are one and the same, lesser elementals just arent as powerful/intelligent as their stronger brethren who can even communicate with mortals. But they are all formed out of their respective element. (thats the reason why there are no elementals of spirit. the spirit is what gives them sentience...aswell as fuels lifeforms to evolve)

Its a natural process, happened on Draenor aswell but on Draenor the element of spirit was too strong (no titan soul to reduce it) so the plants instead became overwhelmingly powerful/intelligent and the titan Aggramar, once he arrived, had to instead deal with rampant world devouring plants. (rather than old gods + enslaved elemental lords)

The only reason you could say elemental planes only exist on azeroth is because we have never even been on another similar planet. The titans supposedly had found thousands of planets during their search for other titan souls (and cultivated life on them before leaving) but weve only ever visited Draenor and unsurprisingly it wasnt identical to Azeroth. So ofcourse elemental planes only exist on Azeroth atm.

[Eapoe]

Bwonsamdi only saves trolls who worship him. By the end there Zul'jin was all with the "hell to everyone who isn't Amani" shtick, not to mention using dark powers later revealed to be a faceless general to bolster his forces. Don't think ol' Bwonsamdi would go up to the plate for that one.

In Shadows Rising it’s revealed Bwonsamdi is saving every Troll soul he can, not just those who make deals with him.
Now, knowing Bwonsamdi it’s possible he is trying to make deals with them for saving them from going to the Maw, but it’s not just the ones he already has deals with or worship him.

[MikeBogina]

He got Rastakhan as part of a deal.

The deal came after his first death, when Rezan was no longer around. I'm referring to his first death when Rezan had to deal with Bwonsamdi for Rastakhan

it's been said that pretty much every troll tribe except the Sandfury dropped Mueh'zala for Bwonsamdi. Also don't forget trolls universally hate everyone who isn't them.

That's not really true, unless you play Alliance and need a reason to kill trolls on sight

The darkspear and zandalari are the exception.

Amani were the first trolls to join the Horde so i guess they would also be the exception... once you get to too many exceptions, then the generalization isn't true.

I can totally see Bwon not taking Zul'jin along the same lines of Odyn not taking Ymiron.

Well it's not the same.
With Odyn, you have to prove yourself. Most if not all the people who go to the Halls of Valor want to go to the Halls of Valor. Ymiron had this option, but chose to server the "Death God" instead, which then got him banned from the cool kids club until in Legion when he was made to join as a punishment.

With Bwonsamdi, he wants your soul more than you want him to have your soul. Has nothing to do with you earning it. He wants Rastakhan's soul, Vol'jin's soul and others and yet they never seem to want him to have their souls. So I see no reason for him not to want Zul'jin's soul.

[cparle87]

In Shadows Rising it’s revealed Bwonsamdi is saving every Troll soul he can, not just those who make deals with him.
Now, knowing Bwonsamdi it’s possible he is trying to make deals with them for saving them from going to the Maw, but it’s not just the ones he already has deals with or worship him.

Yeah, this is now, though. In the past we know there were ways to keep Bwonsamdi from hearing you. Don't wanna think about all the Darkspear Zalazane enslaved and killed while simultaneously prevently Bwon from hearing them.

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The deal came after his first death, when Rezan was no longer around. I'm referring to his first death when Rezan had to deal with Bwonsamdi for Rastakhan


That's not really true, unless you play Alliance and need a reason to kill trolls on sight


Amani were the first trolls to join the Horde so i guess they would also be the exception... once you get to too many exceptions, then the generalization isn't true.


Well it's not the same.
With Odyn, you have to prove yourself. Most if not all the people who go to the Halls of Valor want to go to the Halls of Valor. Ymiron had this option, but chose to server the "Death God" instead, which then got him banned from the cool kids club until in Legion when he was made to join as a punishment.

With Bwonsamdi, he wants your soul more than you want him to have your soul. Has nothing to do with you earning it. He wants Rastakhan's soul, Vol'jin's soul and others and yet they never seem to want him to have their souls. So I see no reason for him not to want Zul'jin's soul.

Does his first death really matter in the scheme of current events? Bwon got him after he died in the raid and is keeping him safe.

"the trolls hold a seething hatred for all other races. One tribe, the darkspear, were forced to get over their bias when saved by the orcish Horde." That was literally in the troll creation cinematic up till Cata.

Amani followed Zul'jin who had a personal deal with Orgrim. Their joining the Old Horde had nothing to do with not hating them. The Zandalari and mogu hated each other and still worked together. Also don't forget the Amani dumped the Horde at the first inconvenience and Zul'jin still blamed them for losing 20 years later. As for the exceptions thing, how many tribes are there? Having 3, or even 4 tribes willing to work with others when there's like 20+ is still an exception.

Ymiron died and Odyn deliberately let Helya have him as punishment for Ymiron stopping titan worship and later siding with the Lich King. After the warrior hero defeats him in the raid he says to Odyn "Hey, wouldn't the worst possible punishment be for him to be forced to work for you, whom he hates and knows rejected him once before?"

As for the souls, there's a big, big difference between the Darkspear and Zandalari here. When we first got introduced to Bwonsamdi in the retaking Echo Isles thing he was portrayed much more positively as a protector of troll souls and Vol'jin seemed to genuinely respect him. The Zandalari distrusting him and keeping him at arm's length was a twist I did not forsee coming. Either the Zandalari know something we don't, which I doubt, or they're just too stuck up to want a "lowly" death loa when they got guys like Rezan. Also it was shown numberous times in BFA that trolls definitely preferred going to the Other Side compared to not.

[Lumineus]

How did Sylvanas end up in the Maw after her suicide anyway? She wasn't that bad at the time to deserve it. Did I miss something like a special summon there by the Jailer or sth?

The Arbiter is powered by the Void, and the voidlords hate Sylvanas because they foresaw her teaming up with Zovaal to break their influence on the Shadowlands, so they... threw her into the Maw so she could team up with Zovaal.

Light will always triumph because the Void is dumb.

[Eapoe]

The Arbiter is powered by the Void, and the voidlords hate Sylvanas because they foresaw her teaming up with Zovaal to break their influence on the Shadowlands, so they... threw her into the Maw so she could team up with Zovaal.

Light will always triumph because the Void is dumb.

Source? As far as I know there has not been any reason supplied as to why Sylvanas is destined for the Maw.

[Feanoro]

The Maw exists because they needed a scary endgame zone, and the story for it not making a damn bit of sense is due to lore always servicing gameplay like a cheap hooker. This time they didn't even TRY to make it work.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I also don't believe Blizzard will be able to come up with a believable explanation as to why Sylvanas ended up in the maw after dying in Icecrown.
From the end of that cinematic (Uther tossing Arthas), i conclude that the Forsworn rebellion isn't even a thing yet (because they don't have the black look),
so the pact with the Jailer also doesn't yet exist.

And we know Sylvanas kills herself on saronite VERY soon after that moment, so Devos/Uther have no reason to take her to the Jailer in that instant.

Unless they try something like "yeah but 1 minute on Azeroth is 1 year in the Shadowlands, so Jailer and Devos were already big buddies then", i don't see how they can explain it.

Or the Jailer already had Mawsworn at that point who were able to snatch her soul. I could imagine a scenario where she was picked up by normal Kyrian but were intercepted by Mawsworn on the way to Oribos.

[Lumineus]

Source? As far as I know there has not been any reason supplied as to why Sylvanas is destined for the Maw.

No source, just the robot dudes going on and on about how the Arbiter "sees all truths" which was the exact same thing N'zoth used to say, because it calculates all of a soul's possible life outcomes quantum uncertainty style which again is the exact same thing the void is known for doing...

[Eapoe]

No source, just the robot dudes going on and on about how the Arbiter "sees all truths" which was the exact same thing N'zoth used to say, because it calculates all of a soul's possible life outcomes quantum uncertainty style which again is the exact same thing the void is known for doing...

Yeah, but one of the things that people haven’t discussed yet is that Sylvanas never went in front of the Arbiter. She was given a glimpse of the Maw and nothing else. Some people have speculated that it means she wasn’t actually destined to go there but was instead given a vision to manipulate her into helping the Jailer.

Speaking of N’zoth, I like how he’s still being discussed with things like “the five keys will unlock our prison,” since it seems that his whispers are still in affect.