Who went into the Maw, the proper way?

[Eazy]

It COULD work, based on time. Even if your comment is probably a jest.

Xavius is killed (shortly) after Ursoc, but before Helya, which could explain why she is in the Maw.

It's not a joke. I am pretty serious about that.
Blizzard has said that we didn't see the last of N'Zoth... and the red thing that flew into Arbiter reminded me of the Emerald Nightmare.

It would make sense, N'Zoth/Void scheming to bring heroes to the realm of Death and let his minions(Alleria through the Turalyon) rule the Azeroth.
That's real 5D Chess played by an Old God.

[MikeBogina]

Does his first death really matter in the scheme of current events? Bwon got him after he died in the raid and is keeping him safe.

His first death shows that Bwonsamdi takes trolls who don't worship him, it shows that he himself goes after souls when you tried to pant it like he's Odyn.
Also you're about to contradict yourself in the next part with the
"Does it matter what happened then, in the current grand scheme"

That was literally in the troll creation cinematic up till Cata.

*Cough* does it matter in the current grand scheme? *cough*
Also if that was the case, then what does that matter? If the Trolls hate everyone, then that's their way of life. Why would that matter to Bwonsamdi?

Amani followed Zul'jin who had a personal deal with Orgrim. Their joining the Old Horde had nothing to do with not hating them. The Zandalari and mogu hated each other and still worked together. Also don't forget the Amani dumped the Horde at the first inconvenience and Zul'jin still blamed them for losing 20 years later. As for the exceptions thing, how many tribes are there? Having 3, or even 4 tribes willing to work with others when there's like 20+ is still an exception.

So can you give me examples of the Amani hating the Orcs while they were allies? The only thing we can go by is that Zul'jin actually liked Doomhammer until Doomhammer abandoned the Quel'thalas campaign.
There's also a group of Zul'jin worshiping forest trolls in the Hinterlands who are also currently apart of the Horde...

Ymiron died and Odyn deliberately let Helya have him as punishment for Ymiron stopping titan worship and later siding with the Lich King. After the warrior hero defeats him in the raid he says to Odyn "Hey, wouldn't the worst possible punishment be for him to be forced to work for you, whom he hates and knows rejected him once before?"

uhh huh, so again Odyn =/= Bwon, do you want to add more to that or just repeat what I said with more detail? xD

As for the souls, there's a big, big difference between the Darkspear and Zandalari here. When we first got introduced to Bwonsamdi in the retaking Echo Isles thing he was portrayed much more positively as a protector of troll souls and Vol'jin seemed to genuinely respect him. The Zandalari distrusting him and keeping him at arm's length was a twist I did not forsee coming. Either the Zandalari know something we don't, which I doubt, or they're just too stuck up to want a "lowly" death loa when they got guys like Rezan. Also it was shown numberous times in BFA that trolls definitely preferred going to the Other Side compared to not.

Originally it was portrayed that only the Darkspear worshiped him, their main class, forget if it's headhunters or something else, get powers from him. Makes a lot of sense that some outcasts would be more willing to work with him than the mighty empire of Zandalar who know of his scheming deals and have other Loa to worship, the ones that bring the rain and crops and stuff.
His little pocket dimension is called "De Other Side" but that doesn't mean it's what the Trolls who mention it say. No living person(s) no what was on the other side of the veil, unless they were loa or wild gods who would come back. Odyn had to give an eye and Bolvar barely peeked. So they're most likely just saying the other side as the afterlife.

[cparle87]

His first death shows that Bwonsamdi takes trolls who don't worship him, it shows that he himself goes after souls when you tried to pant it like he's Odyn.
Also you're about to contradict yourself in the next part with the
"Does it matter what happened then, in the current grand scheme"

*Cough* does it matter in the current grand scheme? *cough*
Also if that was the case, then what does that matter? If the Trolls hate everyone, then that's their way of life. Why would that matter to Bwonsamdi?


So can you give me examples of the Amani hating the Orcs while they were allies? The only thing we can go by is that Zul'jin actually liked Doomhammer until Doomhammer abandoned the Quel'thalas campaign.
There's also a group of Zul'jin worshiping forest trolls in the Hinterlands who are also currently apart of the Horde...


uhh huh, so again Odyn =/= Bwon, do you want to add more to that or just repeat what I said with more detail? xD


Originally it was portrayed that only the Darkspear worshiped him, their main class, forget if it's headhunters or something else, get powers from him. Makes a lot of sense that some outcasts would be more willing to work with him than the mighty empire of Zandalar who know of his scheming deals and have other Loa to worship, the ones that bring the rain and crops and stuff.
His little pocket dimension is called "De Other Side" but that doesn't mean it's what the Trolls who mention it say. No living person(s) no what was on the other side of the veil, unless they were loa or wild gods who would come back. Odyn had to give an eye and Bolvar barely peeked. So they're most likely just saying the other side as the afterlife.

Rastakhan WAS one of his worshippers, though. The Zandalari worshipped Bwonsamdi just like they did all the other loa. He wasn't Rasta's chief loa, that was Rezan. When I said his first death didn't matter think on it this way. If you die once, get brought back, then die again, does it really matter what you were doing the first time you were dead?

It's been categorically stated trolls hate everyone who isn't them. In this case it was a case of outsiders they didn't have reason to hate more versus their most ancient enemy who took their land. When the outsider says "Hey, team up with us and we'll help you kill your ancient enemy" of course you're going to take it. And of course you're going to dump the outsiders the second it looks like they're not going to par up.

They're both beings who claim to preside over the souls of most or all of a race's souls and they both behave in the same ways.

There wasn't a lot of lore about him. Vol'jin contacts him during the effort to take the Echo Isles and asks why he gave up on them. Bwon goes "Whachu talkin' bout, mon? I ain't heard from you guys in years, and I don't got any of your souls, neither." Vol'jin explains Zalazane, butters Bwonsamdi up swearing they'll double up on the worship and all that jazz if he helps them with Zalazane. Bwon thinks on it, agrees, and proves to be the deciding factor.

Bwonsamdi is the loa of death, who speaks to his followers, and flat out tells them that if they're good he'll bring them to his home, De Other Side, where they'll be safe when they die. There's no ambiguity about it.

[MikeBogina]

Rastakhan WAS one of his worshippers, though. The Zandalari worshipped Bwonsamdi just like they did all the other loa. He wasn't Rasta's chief loa, that was Rezan.

Zandalari worshiped him, not all Zandalari. Also you did say
it's been said that pretty much every troll tribe except the Sandfury dropped Mueh'zala for Bwonsamdi.
Rastakhan revered many loa, Bwonsamdi wasn't one and Bwonsamdi even makes it a point that Rezan has been keeping Rastakhan from him for a very long time.

When I said his first death didn't matter think on it this way. If you die once, get brought back, then die again, does it really matter what you were doing the first time you were dead?

Yes because you have to take that into account. His first death, he wasn't a worshiper of Bwonsamdi, his second death, he had made a pact with Bwonsamdi. Both times Bwonsamdi claimed his soul. You claimed it was because of his pact, but clearly it's not. and we know Bwonsamdi has been trying to get all the troll souls so that they dont go to the Maw(he's secretly a good guy, but doesn't want anyone to know it). It has nothing to do with worshiping him, only to do with race when it comes to Bwonsamdi.

It's been categorically stated trolls hate everyone who isn't them.

This point you bring up, what does it have to do with Bwonsamdi? Just what is the point of this point? It's not accurate, but it also isn't relevant.

[Unholyground]

Are there any credible sources that Argus broke the Arbiter?

It is just a hunch, but it could literally be anything.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Rastakhan WAS one of his worshippers, though. The Zandalari worshipped Bwonsamdi just like they did all the other loa. He wasn't Rasta's chief loa, that was Rezan. When I said his first death didn't matter think on it this way. If you die once, get brought back, then die again, does it really matter what you were doing the first time you were dead?

Rastakhan pretty much made Bwonsamdi the King of all Loa on Zandalar after Rezan died.

To quote him during their deal:

"Become my Loa, and I will elevate you above all Loa!"

Hell, Bwonsamdi even says he's abode all Loa (?) during the Zandalari unlock quests when Talanji goes to talk to him, and is pissed that he took Rezan's place

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Plus, as if Shadow's Rising he's the new Loa of Kings , which I f**king hate, but it's better than nothing ( or him getting villian batted) I suppose

[cparle87]

Are there any credible sources that Argus broke the Arbiter?

I agree with you on the timing as well, but not on Helya. Helya works for the Jailer, it makes sense she goes there, if she didn't have a connection and ability to manifest there anyway.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

It's because Kel'thuzad was never evil in the same way that the majority of villains in Warcraft are evil. Within the Road to Damnation story, he is given the ultimatum to serve Ner'zhul willingly or as a slave trapped in his own body (note: prior to this offer, Kel'thuzad was introduced to Anub'arak, who retained his full mental faculties and, if memory serves, showed some disdain towards Ner'zhul while being forced to serve him). He was additionally shown, prior to being given the offer, what could potentially become of him should he refuse. In this way, there are major mitigating circumstances when judging his character and what his final judgement would be.


- Road to Damnation

That was his starting point though, when he was still Human. KT was one of, if not the single most loyal servants of the LK in WC3, and could have betrayed him multiple times. If he didn't save Arthas in the Frozen Throne campaign (when LK lost control of some of the Scourge who turned into the Forsaken), the Scourge would have been destroyed right there. No DK Arthas = LK gets destroyed by Illidan.

He might have been "forced" into it from the beginning, but quickly embraced his role, and would most certainly be close to the top of the list of potential "straight to the Maw" candidates.

[AcidicSyn]

This basically.. loads of people havent really paid much attention to how the Maw works.. No one gets directly sent there.. everyone has a chance at redeeming themselves. The only person who found themselves in the Maw was Sylvanas right after she jumped off ICC.. so I guess I dont really 100% understand why she was sent there when the entire expansion they've basically told us that everyone had a chance at redeeming themselves before being sent to the Maw. Maybe she doesn't remember the time she spent in a covenant? who knows how it works.

Regarding the bolded bit, I think it's just a case of bad plot holitus. Back when Sylvanas committed suicide, WarCraft lore was still toting the "All undead are instantly damned to hell" line, so when she died she went to hell as expected. This has since changed and undead are not all immediately cursed when raised now.

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I'd imagine that anyone who's been killed by Frostmourne, and by extension the Shards of Frostmourne and maybe Shadowmourne as it was powered by souls previously under the thrall of Frostmourne, is essentially marked by the Jailer as it was retconned to be a weapon he had the Runecarver make rather than the Nathrezim. Sylvanas was killed directly by Frostmourne, as was Uther, as we've seen that it cut Uther's soul in two. Could be that anyone killed by it is essentially drawn there rather than being passed to the Arbiter.

In which case, maybe we'll see people like Archmage Antonidas and Anasterian Sunstrider pop up at some point.

I thought it was Uthers prayer to the light that resulted in his soul being torn in two. If this happens to every soul killed by Frostmourne, could there be a second half of Sylvanas running around Shadowlands that was sent there when the blade was broken while the one we know is just the half of her soul that was raised into undeath?

[DeltrusDisc]

We know that Ursoc was one of the last (named NPCs) to be judged by the Arbiter, and soon after that, every dead soul went directly to the Maw.
Therefore, let's keep all talk to a time line, no later than Emerald Nightmare raid.

Who went to the Maw? Not an answer like "the truly vile", but actual names? People we know from lore.
All the bosses/rares we fight in the Maw are new names, we have no connection to, lorewise, but there must be some we know?

Both Kael'thas, Kel'thuzad and Lady Vashj avoided going to the Maw; they would have been good candidates for the Maw in my eyes.

"Both" when you named 3 people, just a head's up, it would have sounded better like: "Kael'thas, Kel'thuzad, and Lady Vashj all avoided going to the Maw..."

Anyways, why do you think they deserve to go to the Maw? Two of them can be argued were trying to do better by their people.

[Magical Mudcrab]

That was his starting point though, when he was still Human. KT was one of, if not the single most loyal servants of the LK in WC3, and could have betrayed him multiple times. If he didn't save Arthas in the Frozen Throne campaign (when LK lost control of some of the Scourge who turned into the Forsaken), the Scourge would have been destroyed right there. No DK Arthas = LK gets destroyed by Illidan.

He might have been "forced" into it from the beginning, but quickly embraced his role, and would most certainly be close to the top of the list of potential "straight to the Maw" candidates.

The starting point is what mattered. It was during his initial induction into the Scourge that Kel'thuzad did the most outright evil things that he would do in his tenure with the Scourge (i.e.: create the Cult of the Damned, plague Lordaeron, summon Archimonde, etc.). At that point, betrayal would have meant him being killed (or enslaved) and forced to serve in a similar manner to Anub'arak, as a slave trapped in his own body; however, the death of Ner'zhul would not be something favourable to Kel'thuzad past his initial resurrection. Ner'zhul's death would have likely lead to Kel'thuzad, and the rest of the Scourge, being killed, so that point it's a matter of survival (note: one of the things Kel'thuzad uses to reason himself into working for Ner'zhul willingly is because damnation does not matter if you cannot die, so there was an existential element to this concern).

Characters like Garrosh, who started a war out of racial hatred, do not get sent to the Maw, he was sent to Revendreth for redemption. The idea that someone like Kel'thuzad, whose actions were primarily motivated by self preservation, would get sent to the Maw does not seem reasonable.

[FuxieDK]

I agree with you on the timing as well, but not on Helya. Helya works for the Jailer, it makes sense she goes there, if she didn't have a connection and ability to manifest there anyway.

True.... But if Xavius broke the machine, Helya was ensured to go to the Maw, when we killed her.
If the Arbiter still worked when we killed Helya, she might have bern sent to Revendreth in stead; that would (to some degree) mess up the Jailer's plans.

Anyways, why do you think they deserve to go to the Maw? Two of them can be argued were trying to do better by their people.

Some one is bound to scream GODWIN'S LAW, so be prepared.......

Hitler worked for the better of Germany and the German people. I have no doubt, he would go to the Maw rather than Revendreth.
But then again, we don't really know how the Arbiter works...

"Both" when you named 3 people, just a head's up, it would have sounded better like: "Kael'thas, Kel'thuzad, and Lady Vashj all avoided going to the Maw...".

We are not here to discuss grammar. As my name and location clearly indicates, English is not my native language.
Also, both refers to "two or more", not just two.....Atleast in Danish.

[cparle87]

True.... But if Xavius broke the machine, Helya was ensured to go to the Maw, when we killed her.
If the Arbiter still worked when we killed Helya, she might have bern sent to Revendreth in stead; that would (to some degree) mess up the Jailer's plans.

Some one is bound to scream GODWIN'S LAW, so be prepared.......

Hitler worked for the better of Germany and the German people. I have no doubt, he would go to the Maw rather than Revendreth.
But then again, we don't really know how the Arbiter works...

What makes you think Xavius broke the machine? As for Helya, the kyrian have a WQ where we're shown various souls and asked whether to bring them to Oribos for judgment or send them back. Beings connected to major powers, like naaru for the light or mantid for the Old Gods, are put in the send them back category. I'd figure Helya would be placed under the "send them back" category and her appearance in the Maw is simply because she works for the Jailer and can go there whenever she wants. Sylvanas wasn't killed and she's there.

[ohwell]

The barometer for Revendreth has been set too high for anyone to qualify directly for the Maw given people who've tried to destroy reality on behalf of demons/old gods, personally disemboweled thousands for science and ate planets don't get a straight ticket there.

Meanwhile somehow Sylvanas went to the maw pre cata..... story is a hot mess unless she didn't meet the jailer and the maw until she met Helya.

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It's not a joke. I am pretty serious about that.
Blizzard has said that we didn't see the last of N'Zoth... and the red thing that flew into Arbiter reminded me of the Emerald Nightmare.

It would make sense, N'Zoth/Void scheming to bring heroes to the realm of Death and let his minions(Alleria through the Turalyon) rule the Azeroth.
That's real 5D Chess played by an Old God.

The old gods aren't playing 5D chess. They're glorified sperm and are now just a glorified std that ravaged a pelvis once cured.

[FuxieDK]

What makes you think Xavius broke the machine? As for Helya, the kyrian have a WQ where we're shown various souls and asked whether to bring them to Oribos for judgment or send them back. Beings connected to major powers, like naaru for the light or mantid for the Old Gods, are put in the send them back category. I'd figure Helya would be placed under the "send them back" category and her appearance in the Maw is simply because she works for the Jailer and can go there whenever she wants. Sylvanas wasn't killed and she's there.

It was actually someone else, who suggested, it was Xavius's death that broke the Arbiter; The Arbiter worked when Ursoc was killed (Blizzard confirmed) and Helya is also killed and is in the Maw.

That means the Arbiter broke between Ursoc and Helya were killed: Xavius is a good candidate.

[huth]

It was actually someone else, who suggested, it was Xavius's death that broke the Arbiter; The Arbiter worked when Ursoc was killed (Blizzard confirmed) and Helya is also killed and is in the Maw.

That means the Arbiter broke between Ursoc and Helya were killed: Xavius is a good candidate.

I don't think Helya is a valid measure. She was already associated with Death before we bonked her on the head.

[Shedaar]

Nobody goes directly to the Maw. Even the most vile get sent to Revendreth where they're given centuries to repent. Only after you prove yourself utterly irredeemable beyond anything do the venthyr send you down to the Maw.

This is untrue.
The Arbiter cinematic shows that some of the souls (before she gets disabled being the stupid machine she is) go to the Maw.

[cparle87]

I don't think Helya is a valid measure. She was already associated with Death before we bonked her on the head.

I've actually told him that very thing in this thread. It's like the Kyrian daily where you get shown souls and get to pick whether to bring them to Oribos for judgement, or not. I've seen naga, fire elementals, naaru, mantid and other people who are all "don't bring them cause they're bound to other powers" reason.

[Woobels]

I really hope they don't try to redeem Arthas in the Maw somehow or make him too cool for hell or anything.

[cparle87]

It was actually someone else, who suggested, it was Xavius's death that broke the Arbiter; The Arbiter worked when Ursoc was killed (Blizzard confirmed) and Helya is also killed and is in the Maw.

That means the Arbiter broke between Ursoc and Helya were killed: Xavius is a good candidate.

Or, like has been said, Helya went to the Maw because she's affiliated with it and it wasn't Xavius. We've been asking you if you have any evidence to support your Xavius.

You: "I think this is the reason."
Us: "Why do you think that?"
You: "I think this is the reason."
Us: "Yes, but why do you think that?"