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  1. #121
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I don't think Helya is a valid measure. She was already associated with Death before we bonked her on the head.
    Maybe, maybe not..

    But Helya is dead (we killed her), Sylvanas is not; there are finde ental differences to their appearances in Shadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Or, like has been said, Helya went to the Maw because she's affiliated with it and it wasn't Xavius. We've been asking you if you have any evidence to support your Xavius.

    You: "I think this is the reason."
    Us: "Why do you think that?"
    You: "I think this is the reason."
    Us: "Yes, but why do you think that?"
    I'm trying to find reason....

    The only rock solid piece of info we have, is that the Arbiter was working when Ursoc was killed, and broke soon after. But how soon? Xavius? Helya? Gul'dan? Argus?

    Which ones were judged by Arbiter and which ones went to Maw directly?
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Maybe, maybe not..

    But Helya is dead (we killed her), Sylvanas is not; there are finde ental differences to their appearances in Shadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I'm trying to find reason....

    The only rock solid piece of info we have, is that the Arbiter was working when Ursoc was killed, and broke soon after. But how soon? Xavius? Helya? Gul'dan? Argus?

    Which ones were judged by Arbiter and which ones went to Maw directly?
    Who's to say the Jailer didn't revive her like he arranged for Sylvanas to be revived? I find it very strange that a death deity with her own army of val'kyr wouldn't be able to have herself brought back from the dead.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Maybe, maybe not..

    But Helya is dead (we killed her), Sylvanas is not; there are finde ental differences to their appearances in Shadowlands.
    The big point here is that Helya most likely already had contacts with the Jailer and would have gone to the Maw by her own choice anyway, so her being there doesn't tell us anything about when the Arbiter broke. And "Sylvanas is not dead" is kinda iffy. She's certainly still going about, sure. The difference to Helya might not be quite as finde ental as you think, though.

  4. #124
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Warcraft's villains are funny in that vast majority of them come from good or at least redeemable intentions. The only ones I can think of that are evil of their own right are Gul'dan, Archimonde and Kiljaeden. Surely many lesser villains, of the raid-filler kind and whatnot, apply as well, but I don't care about them.

    Since the demonic respawn engine or whatever was shut down in Argus I wager Archimonde and Kiljaeden were either erased entirely or got their mortal-death privileges returned.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Or, like has been said, Helya went to the Maw because she's affiliated with it and it wasn't Xavius. We've been asking you if you have any evidence to support your Xavius.

    You: "I think this is the reason."
    Us: "Why do you think that?"
    You: "I think this is the reason."
    Us: "Yes, but why do you think that?"
    It was me.

    And there's no evidence. But we know that happened after Ursoc and before Helya.
    It's just that Xavius had that red aura thing and Blizzard told us about how N'Zoth will still play role in the future.

    I just guessed that it would be cool to see him tricking us to go to the Shadowlands, while leaving Azeroth defenseless.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    It was me.

    And there's no evidence. But we know that happened after Ursoc and before Helya.
    It's just that Xavius had that red aura thing and Blizzard told us about how N'Zoth will still play role in the future.

    I just guessed that it would be cool to see him tricking us to go to the Shadowlands, while leaving Azeroth defenseless.
    Thanks for actually sharing the evidence. I know we know it happened after Ursoc. But why do you think it happened before Helya? Helya already has a connection to the Jailer so it would make sense that she would go to the Maw after her death. Going a step further we don't even know if she's actually dead. Sylvanas' val'kyr brought her back to life once, and Helya is literally a queen of the val'kyr. She could've easily been brought back from dead to undeath and simply returned to the Maw to play her next role in the Jailer's plan since there was no point in staying in Stormheim since Odyn was now free.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  7. #127
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Some one is bound to scream GODWIN'S LAW, so be prepared.......

    Hitler worked for the better of Germany and the German people. I have no doubt, he would go to the Maw rather than Revendreth.
    But then again, we don't really know how the Arbiter works...
    Don't be so sure.
    Blizzard has made it pretty clear, no soul went straight to the Maw without at least being given a chance to repent in Revendreth.
    I'm not sure if, let's say, someone won't repent, they get sent back to Oribos, and then that is when they get sent to the Maw.
    "Hey Arbiter, this one isn't interested, we're sending them back, what do you want to do?"
    "To the Maw!"
    So yeah.

    I do believe Hitler would go to Revendreth... just like Garrosh and Kael'thas... who were also trying to work for the better of their people.
    "For Teldrassil."
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    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Thanks for actually sharing the evidence. I know we know it happened after Ursoc. But why do you think it happened before Helya? Helya already has a connection to the Jailer so it would make sense that she would go to the Maw after her death. Going a step further we don't even know if she's actually dead. Sylvanas' val'kyr brought her back to life once, and Helya is literally a queen of the val'kyr. She could've easily been brought back from dead to undeath and simply returned to the Maw to play her next role in the Jailer's plan since there was no point in staying in Stormheim since Odyn was now free.
    That was just a speculation, a guess, nothing more, nothing less.
    Based on three things:
    -the timing kinda fits,
    -it had kinda red/black aura(just like Emerald Nightmare),
    -Blizzard told us we didn't see the last of N'Zoth,

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Since the demonic respawn engine or whatever was shut down in Argus I wager Archimonde and Kiljaeden were either erased entirely or got their mortal-death privileges returned.
    That was only supposed to speed up the process, though they did die in fel saturated areas so they could be gone for good.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    That was just a speculation, a guess, nothing more, nothing less.
    Based on three things:
    -the timing kinda fits,
    -it had kinda red/black aura(just like Emerald Nightmare),
    -Blizzard told us we didn't see the last of N'Zoth,
    I personally thought it was Argus. The Pantheon draining his power to trap Sargeras did something to him so he went to the Shadowlands instead of wherever dead Titans go, but his rage and demonic corruption damaged the Arbiter. Helya being there could be explained by her going there naturally by being allied with the Jailer, or even her just being rezzed by her val'kyr the moment we left the raid and she travelled there naturally to follow the Jailer's plans.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  11. #131
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I personally thought it was Argus.
    Personally, I think Argus dies waaaaaay too late, to be what broke the Arbiter.

    Blizzard wrote something like (and I cannot find the original quote) "Ursoc was one of the last souls to be judged by the Arbiter".

    Xavius dies in the same raid, so only a few souls reach the Arbiter before Xavius.
    Helya dies in the raid following Emerald Nightmare, so a few more than Xavius, but still not very many.
    Then we have whole of Nighthold raid followed by all of Antorus where Argus is the final boss...

    Combined with all the time that pass from Ursoc to Argus, cannot by any stretch be falling under "Ursoc was one of the last souls".

    Personally, I don't think the Arbiter broke any later than Helya was killed; Xavius is my main suspect.

    But until Blizzard either comes with a new quote, a new cinematic that explains it or something similar, we don't know.
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  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Personally, I think Argus dies waaaaaay too late, to be what broke the Arbiter.

    Blizzard wrote something like (and I cannot find the original quote) "Ursoc was one of the last souls to be judged by the Arbiter".
    Ysera was part of the last batch to arrive, which must have included Ursoc as well. Either way, it can't have been too long after EN.

    One possibility just crossed my mind, though: Helya's defeat itself. Odyn may have(possibly intentional on Mueh'zala's part) caused far more trouble than anybody realised with his Val'kyr plans.

  13. #133
    Warchief Ardenaso's Avatar
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    basically anyone who's a "threat to the Shadowlands ecosystem" like destroying souls, MU and AU Gul'dan, any Warlock who diddled with Souls, and perhaps Grom and his Warsongs since they also slaughtered Wisps in Ashenvale
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  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sometimes not even that and you get Maldraxxus
    I'd suggest that Vashj probably went through Revendreth first. Revendreth isn't supposed to be a permanent destination. You go there to be cleansed and then move on to an afterlife fitting the rest of your actions, or you can't be cleansed and are sent to the Maw. I'm not clear on whether Garrosh should be getting sent to the Maw at this point or if the idea is that he will let go of his pride eventually.
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  15. #135
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Ysera was part of the last batch to arrive, which must have included Ursoc as well. Either way, it can't have been too long after EN.

    One possibility just crossed my mind, though: Helya's defeat itself. Odyn may have(possibly intentional on Mueh'zala's part) caused far more trouble than anybody realised with his Val'kyr plans.
    Ysera dies long before Ursoc.
    Last edited by FuxieDK; 2021-01-02 at 03:13 PM.
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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Warcraft's villains are funny in that vast majority of them come from good or at least redeemable intentions. The only ones I can think of that are evil of their own right are Gul'dan, Archimonde and Kiljaeden. Surely many lesser villains, of the raid-filler kind and whatnot, apply as well, but I don't care about them.
    methinks Nyami too, as implied in the Death Knight class questline
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  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    I'd suggest that Vashj probably went through Revendreth first. Revendreth isn't supposed to be a permanent destination. You go there to be cleansed and then move on to an afterlife fitting the rest of your actions, or you can't be cleansed and are sent to the Maw. I'm not clear on whether Garrosh should be getting sent to the Maw at this point or if the idea is that he will let go of his pride eventually.
    You don't get out of revendreth, until you are reformed or it is off to the maw, Vashj hasn't changed at all,not to mention she tells us she came directly to Maldraxxus.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Ysera dies long before Ursoc.
    She is explicitly noted as part of the final batch before the Drought, so your claim doesn't check out.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Personally, I think Argus dies waaaaaay too late, to be what broke the Arbiter.

    Blizzard wrote something like (and I cannot find the original quote) "Ursoc was one of the last souls to be judged by the Arbiter".

    Xavius dies in the same raid, so only a few souls reach the Arbiter before Xavius.
    Helya dies in the raid following Emerald Nightmare, so a few more than Xavius, but still not very many.
    Then we have whole of Nighthold raid followed by all of Antorus where Argus is the final boss...

    Combined with all the time that pass from Ursoc to Argus, cannot by any stretch be falling under "Ursoc was one of the last souls".

    Personally, I don't think the Arbiter broke any later than Helya was killed; Xavius is my main suspect.

    But until Blizzard either comes with a new quote, a new cinematic that explains it or something similar, we don't know.
    Xavius is a demon, he wouldn't go to the Shadowlands anyway. Helya is tied to the forces of Death to maybe she went there naturally or maybe her val'kyr rezzed her the moment we left and she went there manually to assist the Jailer. Considering people have been going to the Shadowlands for millenia saying Ursoc was one of the last when thousands came after him would still be a reasonable statement.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    She is explicitly noted as part of the final batch before the Drought, so your claim doesn't check out.
    He's correct. Both Ysera and Ursoc were some of the last to end up in Ardenweald before the drought. Events in a zone almost universally happen before the raid. Ysera gets corrupted and killed while Malfurion gets kidnapped in the zone. We free Malfurion in the dungeon. He helps up in the raid.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  20. #140
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    She is explicitly noted as part of the final batch before the Drought, so your claim doesn't check out.
    Ysera dies (long) before we enter the Emerald Nightmare. We've all done the quest line in Val'sharah; first she's corrupted by Xavius, then we kill her to finish up the zone. We free Malfurion in the instance (forgot the name) so he can help us in Emerald Nightmare.

    All this takes place before Emerald Nightmare, i.e. before Ursoc is killed.
    Last edited by FuxieDK; 2021-01-03 at 09:23 AM.
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