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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Nope. Not even close. Think in terms of kilotons per day.
    We shall see. CA highly efficient agriculture industry is already producing 19.5% of the US crops with only 3% of the farmable land. Actually, if you only consider crops that are directly for human consumption, the percentage is much higher. Well approaching 30%. I don't think it is too far out of the realm of possibility that one day most crops will be grown in even more efficient vertical high tech farms.

    Think of the possibilities. Year round planting seasons with 24-hr a day optimized light. Not having to worry about drought or, for that matter, too much rain or rain at wrong time. Always the right temperature. Not too hot, nor too cold. Reduce the potential damage from detrimental soil pathogens. Minimized the use of pesticides and herbicides. Recycled water.

  2. #242
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    We shall see. CA highly efficient agriculture industry is already producing 19.5% of the US crops with only 3% of the farmable land. Actually, if you only consider crops that are directly for human consumption, the percentage is much higher. Well approaching 30%. I don't think it is too far out of the realm of possibility that one day most crops will be grown in even more efficient vertical high tech farms.

    Think of the possibilities. Year round planting seasons with 24-hr a day optimized light. Not having to worry about drought or, for that matter, too much rain or rain at wrong time. Always the right temperature. Not too hot, nor too cold. Reduce the potential damage from detrimental soil pathogens. Minimized the use of pesticides and herbicides. Recycled water.
    Yeah definitely at some point in the future. As far as DNA I'd say there is a billion billion variations of plants that we haven't seen and we'll just keep nudging them in the right direction until we find useful ones that grow quickly in a controlled indoors environment. Even if they would instantly die in the wild.

    Right now indoors agriculture tends to be viable for relatively low protein and low-carb plant species that are not really the "staples" of civilization, but that can easily change.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-12-31 at 08:51 PM.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    We shall see. CA highly efficient agriculture industry is already producing 19.5% of the US crops with only 3% of the farmable land. Actually, if you only consider crops that are directly for human consumption, the percentage is much higher. Well approaching 30%. I don't think it is too far out of the realm of possibility that one day most crops will be grown in even more efficient vertical high tech farms.
    If I recall correctly most of the bottom half gets its water supply from the north half. (Or at least that was the case before the gods drowned the state this past year)

  4. #244
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    We shall see. CA highly efficient agriculture industry is already producing 19.5% of the US crops with only 3% of the farmable land. Actually, if you only consider crops that are directly for human consumption, the percentage is much higher. Well approaching 30%. I don't think it is too far out of the realm of possibility that one day most crops will be grown in even more efficient vertical high tech farms.

    Think of the possibilities. Year round planting seasons with 24-hr a day optimized light. Not having to worry about drought or, for that matter, too much rain or rain at wrong time. Always the right temperature. Not too hot, nor too cold. Reduce the potential damage from detrimental soil pathogens. Minimized the use of pesticides and herbicides. Recycled water.
    This could even be done within cities. Decayed industrial urban areas could be reworked into vertical farms with, I'd imagine, minimal requisite changes to the infrastructure required to support them, as they'd largely be automated, could likely use already existing power and water infrastructure and could convert already existing/unused transportation infrastructure for distribution.


    Going out on a bit of a tangent, these are the things the US should be pioneering along with renewable energy and a more aggressive focus on space exploration. I think one of the greatest detriments conservatives have done to the US is driving down the value of innovation and science by insisting on propping up antiquated industries by turning science (or rather, their denial and depreciation of it) into a political game.

    Science is going to happen and innovation is going to be made, whether the US does it or not. They can either choose to be at the front of it, or begin to trail and rely more and more on other countries to do it for them. California generally seems to be one of the few states still willing to take a major stand in the pursuit of it.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2021-01-01 at 01:21 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    so two wrongs make a right somehow? is that what we are going with?

    also the thing with LA (which, unfairly a lot of people equate with California as a whole, kinda like the way people equate NYC with NY state - also wrongly)? its a hellhole, whether you are rural or urban or suburban. its just a hellhole for everyone, but the richest. and even for the richest who get to bypass the awful infrastructure of that city and are not as affected by its prices, the culture of clout chasing in that particular city is especially bad.

    P.S. while people as a rule tend to resist change due to very human fear of unknown - there is a method of understanding the environment that you are making the changes in. all too often - even when the change or improvement is genuinely truly needed, the way its done betrays thorough misunderstanding of the environment and because of that - the change doesn't work, the change doesn't take, the change doesn't help. you need to work WITH people, not try to roll right over them because you are so convinced that you have all the right answers. they may be right answers for YOUR environment, but not for EVERY environment. (and yes this goes both ways, rural only people do not know and cannot know what's best for someone living and preferring to live in Urban environment. as I said, two wrongs do not make a right - though as an aside, i do wish people would stop using holocaust as their stick to beat their point with, while simultaneously throwing jewish people under the bus, when they are "the wrong kind of jewish person" - and they are white oppressors now. its exhausting. )
    No, two wrongs don't make a right. But I see a whole lot of folks in this thread attacking California/big city elitism as if rural areas aren't guilty of the exact same behavior. So many of the complaints are framed as if only the big cities are the bad ones.

    That's kind of the point, everyone thinks all the places they don't like are hellholes. There are plenty of people in LA (even non-rich ones) who would consider living in a small country town to be hell. The behaviors and issues you keep describing aren't endemic or specific to LA. LA really isn't so much worse than any of the other super large metropolitan areas (hell, I'd argue the Salt Lake valley is just as bad only the conservatives there are worse). Just like there are places in other countries that folks in the US would say are hellholes while people from there will say the US is a hellhole.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    why do people seem to hate california in the us? reading on various pages... people on twitch... so many ragging against california... why is it so disliked?
    I always thought Republican states were far more deeply disliked, and California and New York were greatly admired, by young Americans at least.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  7. #247
    Grats to Shirley Weber, California's new Secretary of State.
    Shirley was just three when her family fled a lynch mob in Arkansas and came to California. Now, she’s set to become the Secretary of State for 40 million people.


    https://ktla.com/news/california/shi...hance-to-vote/

  8. #248
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    It's the heart of the LEFT coast, aka Commifornia.
    /s
    This.

    Seriously knew a hard core conservative who always called it that. Conservatives in this country for some reason hate California and act like it's some big communist dystopia where liberals rule with an iron fist.

    Like give me a break.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    No, two wrongs don't make a right. But I see a whole lot of folks in this thread attacking California/big city elitism as if rural areas aren't guilty of the exact same behavior. So many of the complaints are framed as if only the big cities are the bad ones.

    That's kind of the point, everyone thinks all the places they don't like are hellholes. There are plenty of people in LA (even non-rich ones) who would consider living in a small country town to be hell. The behaviors and issues you keep describing aren't endemic or specific to LA. LA really isn't so much worse than any of the other super large metropolitan areas (hell, I'd argue the Salt Lake valley is just as bad only the conservatives there are worse). Just like there are places in other countries that folks in the US would say are hellholes while people from there will say the US is a hellhole.
    I'm sorry, no living in LA is far FAR worse then most other metropoliten areas, and I say that as someone who used to live in NYC - which is very close to as expensive as LA can get. what's the difference? infrastructure. as a regular, non rich person - getting around in NYC is fairly easy. and when I say regular non rich person - I mean someone who uses a subway. subway will take you quite literally ANYWHERE in a city and its boroughs. and while busses are a crapshoot, thanks to overpopulated, congested streets (NYC traffic is just... /shudder. had to drive through from NJ to Brooklyn and I'm barely exaggerating that just getting through Manhattan traffic took as much time as driving through most of NJ, but I digress) - they are there, and there is always an option of walking down the sidewalk.

    there are food deserts in NYC. I've worked in one ages ago (that was fun.. no not really). but there are few and far in between relatively speaking, in general getting groceries in NYC is not super difficult and there are both expensive options like Zabars or Whole Paycheck, and cheaper ones like Shop Rights etc - even in Manhattan.

    LA though... public transportation is severely lacking. getting groceries can be much rougher. quality of air is absolute shit. and rents are insane unless you are living in a crappy part of a suburb. you'd think that one of the biggest pluses to living in a large city would be convenience, because its so tightly packed, you don't have to go far for essentials right? nope. you are almost stuck with having to use uber to get around. and because of constant droughts, you have to be extra careful with water. and because of constant draughts - air quality makes NYC feel pastoral.

    and above? is from a sibling who used to live there because their field of work is something that in theory should benefit greatly from living in LA, make the rest of it worth it? nope. not even close to being worth it. moreover - the culture, the clout chasing, the falsehoods and signaling virtue while stabbing people in a back? might not be ONLY in LA but its especially prevalent in LA. at least from experience.

    I know that to some degree what someone considers hellhole is relative to their personal preferences. with LA - its hellhole even if you love cities, unless you are rich enough to balance out its issues.

    in any case, the thing about big cities is that, correct me if I'm wrong, but people in rural areas might scoff at "dam city folk" but they don't tend to tell them how to live, let alone try to force the change regardless of whether environment calls for it. THAT is endemic to city people, again from experience. and no I'm not talking about things like "respecting people and accepting people" (not that I see some city folk not practice what they preach when it comes to acceptance, but I digress) I'm talking about basic, every day life things, from how roads should be, to the kind of car you should drive (or not drive) to whether you should be able to protect yourself from a wildlife or a burglar (they don't usually happen here, but you never know) in a place where you do NOT have police stations around every corner (in NYC, I could walk to a station within minutes and I had neighbours all around so yelling for help could actualy do something. where I live now - driving to one is 15 minutes or more, walking is a hike - and there are fewer cops in general, so if I have to call one - they will take a long while getting here and if my immediate neighbours are not home? no one will hear me scream).

    road maintenance (including snow removal)? is on me (well on us, houses on our private road tend to take turns with it, but its not covered by the taxes and not repaired by out municipality is what I'm saying). so is sewage and water. I've seen people from cities talk about how ungrateful we are about all that taxes do for us, while siting municipal sewage and water, that our municipal taxes should be higher and like... i don't have those. i don't have city picking up my trash either, I pay for my own trash pickup to a private company. do NOT tell me that my taxes somehow should still cover services that city is not providing me or other people in my area.

    this is the kind of shit I'm talking about when saying that city people have no bloody clue, but still feel qualified to tell me what i should be doing and how i should be doing it and how much I'm supposed to pay for it.
    Last edited by Witchblade77; 2021-01-01 at 04:21 AM.

  10. #250
    1. Cost of Living
    2. Population Density; Traffic
    3. Wildfires
    4. Liberals

  11. #251
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    1. Cost of Living
    2. Population Density; Traffic
    3. Wildfires
    4. Liberals
    1. Valid
    2. Valid
    3. Valid
    4. Gimme a break.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    1. Valid
    2. Valid
    3. Valid
    4. Gimme a break.
    It’s a reason people give so just because you disagree doesn’t mean it’s not valid.

  13. #253
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    It’s a reason people give so just because you disagree doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
    It's an invalid reason.

    Like

    "I don't want to move to Clark NJ because it is too diverse" is an invalid reason to not move to Clark NJ.

    The racial makeup of the township [Clark] was 95.61% White, 0.30% African American, 0.01% Native American, 2.75% Asian, 0.63% from other races, and 0.69% from two or more races. Also Hispanic or Latino of any race were 3.67% of the population.[41][
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  14. #254
    Validity has little relevance beyond that which pertains to those connected to those forced to register because of a watch list, like pedophiles. Which some are sharp enough to realize that such lists can be requested on demand before moving into a location. (Thank you Meghan's Law)

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    1. Cost of Living
    2. Population Density; Traffic
    3. Wildfires
    4. Liberals
    1. relative to income its not even in the top 10 worst.
    2. in the minority of CA.
    3. well fires < random ass tornado's, Nor'Easters, Earthquakes, Hurricanes.....
    4. Where are you going to move where there is no liberals? I mean the majority of CA counties are not even liberal or even close....
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    This could even be done within cities. Decayed industrial urban areas could be reworked into vertical farms with, I'd imagine, minimal requisite changes to the infrastructure required to support them, as they'd largely be automated, could likely use already existing power and water infrastructure and could convert already existing/unused transportation infrastructure for distribution.


    Going out on a bit of a tangent, these are the things the US should be pioneering along with renewable energy and a more aggressive focus on space exploration. I think one of the greatest detriments conservatives have done to the US is driving down the value of innovation and science by insisting on propping up antiquated industries by turning science (or rather, their denial and depreciation of it) into a political game.

    Science is going to happen and innovation is going to be made, whether the US does it or not. They can either choose to be at the front of it, or begin to trail and rely more and more on other countries to do it for them. California generally seems to be one of the few states still willing to take a major stand in the pursuit of it.
    There are several companies that are doing indoor, vertical and robotic agriculture.

    I got a tour of Iron Ox fully robotic indoor farm in San Carlos two years ago. My brother-in-law company manufactured their robots and, since my sister still has minority share, they gave all the executives and their family members a full tour.

    Very impressive. About an acre fully managed by two robots. Its not a vertical agriculture facility. Just rows and rows of greens and herbs in trays. The robots did everything. From soil mixing, seeding, planting, transplanting, moving the trays, monitoring and adjusting the water/light/minerals, detecting and removing diseased plants, and harvesting. It was freaking awesome. The guide claimed that their one acre produced the equivalent of 30 acres of conventional outdoor farming. Probably exaggerated.

    A couple other promising companies in the Bay Area include Unfold that do research into vertical agriculture and Pivot Bio that do research of low water and self-fertilizing crops. Most of the agriculture start ups are in the Bay Area or New York. With some in Boston.

    Just like any new technology, the biggest barrier to entry is the high initial cost. Somebody has to pay for both the research and construction costs. That's why most of pilot farms are located in places like the Bay Area where people won't blink having to pay 5x the cost to eat lettuce grown in one of these farms.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Because it'S progressive AND successful.
    its energy infrastructure is lacking
    taxes are really high
    everything causes cancer there
    people/businesses are moving away

    the only thing it really has is the tech industry started there and hasn't left.

  18. #258
    Another reason why my wife and I will never leave CA. We had a foot of snow on Monday. Today we are in the high 60s. The fruit orchard is loaded. Take a look at our Buddhas' Palm lemon. All the flowers are blooming. We had a bumble bee the size of a humming bird earlier. That's California winter for you.






  19. #259
    Mainly because it’s expensive as fuck to live there and they are one of the strictest and most regulated places to live in the US as well. They also have some of the highest tax rates in the country. There’s a reason why companies and businesses are leaving the state en masse right now.
    Last edited by nuffisenough; 2021-01-02 at 12:35 AM.

  20. #260
    California is associated with Hollywood. People in Hollywood have been a target of gossip magazines, publications, newspapers and websites for generations at this point. So for a large subset of people, Hollywood people have extremely low social status. They are the butt of jokes. A huge negative stereotype. They are seen as irresponsible, wreckless, drug-addled, rude, classless, you name it. Whenever a new star in Hollywood emerges, everyone pays attention just to wait until they can point and mock at the mistakes they make publicly.

    And all of that gets transferred to California in general.

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