1. #1

    So I take it Mistweaver isn't very good, again

    Now that I'm pretty much raid logging in Classic, I figured I'd give retail a spin since I miss playing Monk....though from looking around here, it seems that once again Mistweaver is the worst healer and has shitty cooldowns and almost no utility compared to the other healers.

    But really, I'm only going to play retail casually, so just heroic/mythic dungeons, maybe some light M+, and normal/heroic raid pugs. I assume I'll be fine for that?

  2. #2
    Yes, you'll be fine.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Mistweaver and holy priest. I know, shocking.
    Yeah, I mained healing priest back in Legion and it was awful. I mean, fucks sake, Tranquility was pretty much a straight upgrade of Divine Hymn, with more healing, shorter cooldown and channelable while moving. Druid and Shaman and Paladin had all these super useful raid utilities and amazing cooldowns, and Priest/Monk were left with scraps in comparison. Why tf does Blizzard hate priests and monks so much
    Last edited by anon5123; 2020-12-28 at 01:53 AM.

  4. #4
    Monks are pretty decent. They are not broken, like disc and shaman are, but just decent. Very good single target healing, something that's very useful from heroic onwards.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    Mist just has a mana issues.

    Very strong heal set ups are possible with legendaries + Celestial usage but it comes at huge mana costs.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    holy pally are broken.
    I mean have you tried healing m+ with a paladin? Yeah you can do some damage but that doesnt help when the tank just dies.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Now that I'm pretty much raid logging in Classic, I figured I'd give retail a spin since I miss playing Monk....though from looking around here, it seems that once again Mistweaver is the worst healer and has shitty cooldowns and almost no utility compared to the other healers.

    But really, I'm only going to play retail casually, so just heroic/mythic dungeons, maybe some light M+, and normal/heroic raid pugs. I assume I'll be fine for that?
    Yeah, Mistweaver is really not able to get a raid spot if you're in a pool of 200 players in 7-8 total guilds across tens of thousands of guilds and millions of players.

    I hate to break it to just about everyone in this thread - but playing a mistweaver monk is not the reason you're not pushing for world first kills and the reason you're missing the MDI finals at Blizzcon.

  8. #8
    Be mindful of an important distinction:

    "X is worse than A, B, or C" DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSLATE TO "X is terrible and can't be played"

    The differences between the healing classes (or any other class/spec) are real, for sure, but the only time they outright disqualify someone from competing is at the ABSOLUTE HIGHEST LEVEL. Anything below that - even just, say, Top 50 raiding - and you can absolutely do things with any class/spec.

    You want to play a MW, play a MW. You playing a MW is not going to be what keeps you from killing mythic Denathrius.

    Objectively, there is no reason to bring a MW; subjectively, there very much is because that's what some people like to play. And it's not disadvantaged to the level where that will matter, unless you are competing at a level where you don't care what you're playing and then it's a non-issue from the start.

    That's not to say that MW couldn't do with buffs, of course. Absolutely it should be looked at. But it's not unplayable, or unusable. Not even close.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Maybe try making a real argument this time.
    Sure. I'll dumb it down for you since you missed the point entirely.

    Mistweaver is bad because it doesn't bring DR or any sort of viable CD's for World-First raiding where you're 10-15 ILVLs lower than the content you're doing because you're getting there with the best players in the world months before 99% of the rest of the game will ever even come close to seeing it.

    By the time YOU get there, Mistweaver is fully capable of killing any of the content in the game, because the raid will be significantly more geared than these guys were upon reaching Sire, and tanks won't be in such dire need of every class having a DR for them.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    So you’re saying that if you’re not raiding world first, a cooldown like spirit link isn’t useful?

    You’re right, that is pretty dumb.
    Who said it wasn't useful? You'll have a shaman or two as well. They'll be doing that.

    It's just not required that the monk have it. If they play Monk better than Shaman, they'll be more useful on the monk. There's a difference. It's REQUIRED at the level Max is playing at when he made the comment you're all up in a huff about.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Absolutely, the discussion is about the gap. And from my perspective, the gap in utility is pretty large. Monk can do enough throughput to kill the boss, but they have limited ability to help negate mechanics. Shaman with spirit link, healing tide, mana tide, and ankh totem is incredible in this regard, and maybe the right answer is to nerf shaman, but I think it'd be more fun to buff mistweaver because it's fun to have cool abilities like that.
    Right now utility is absolutely the problem, I agree; the fact that the healer with the most valuable utility ALSO happens to put out the most healing currently is just egregious bullshit on top of that, but not the decider.

    That being said, the existence of the gap and the magnitude of the gap are two different things. And how the gap is experienced is contingent on the level you play at. It's a problem, no doubt about that, but it's not going to make or break something on its own for most people. At the high end, sure, it'll come into play, but for the average player it's far less important than other factors.

  12. #12
    Mistweaver is a fine healer. It might not be the best and its certainly not 'broken' but I have no problems healing keys with my m+ group and I top the meters in the guild I raid with. Equally geared and skilled on another class maybe Id be a bit better, but I'm more than good enough on monk to do all content I do.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Be mindful of an important distinction:

    "X is worse than A, B, or C" DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSLATE TO "X is terrible and can't be played"

    The differences between the healing classes (or any other class/spec) are real, for sure, but the only time they outright disqualify someone from competing is at the ABSOLUTE HIGHEST LEVEL. Anything below that - even just, say, Top 50 raiding - and you can absolutely do things with any class/spec.

    You want to play a MW, play a MW. You playing a MW is not going to be what keeps you from killing mythic Denathrius.

    Objectively, there is no reason to bring a MW; subjectively, there very much is because that's what some people like to play. And it's not disadvantaged to the level where that will matter, unless you are competing at a level where you don't care what you're playing and then it's a non-issue from the start.

    That's not to say that MW couldn't do with buffs, of course. Absolutely it should be looked at. But it's not unplayable, or unusable. Not even close.
    This is the Covid only kills 1% of the infected and who cares about the scale of WoW. If a world 500 player can finish world 300 by using the meta class, that is just as valid a balance concern as the comp stacking in world first kills. If an AOTC player can play farther into mythic with the meta spec over their normal one, that is a perfectly valid concern for class balance. Anyone who could personally do better by swapping off their preferred class and into the one that is OP for whatever content they want to finish, and go father, or have an easier time, or get there faster, that is a balance concern. Anyone putting together a raid, or an M+ team, or a pug, who'll have a faster, easier, more successful time choosing the meta spec over the similarly skilled/geared player in the off meta spec, has a valid reason to do so. When a spec performs better, the content is easier, and players of any skill level can progress farther, and just because it can be done, doesn't mean everyone can do it, and if they can do it easier with a meta spec, that is a balance concern. Nobody likes to perform poorly, and even scrubs progress father on the OP meta specs. Dismissing the concerns as being only valid among the very best players in the world is dismissing huge swaths of the problem as not existing when in fact they do.

    Balance affects everyone who is trying to do better than they've done before, and I promise you that is not just the world first crowd.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    This is the Covid only kills 1% of the infected and who cares about the scale of WoW. If a world 500 player can finish world 300 by using the meta class, that is just as valid a balance concern as the comp stacking in world first kills. If an AOTC player can play farther into mythic with the meta spec over their normal one, that is a perfectly valid concern for class balance. Anyone who could personally do better by swapping off their preferred class and into the one that is OP for whatever content they want to finish, and go father, or have an easier time, or get there faster, that is a balance concern. Anyone putting together a raid, or an M+ team, or a pug, who'll have a faster, easier, more successful time choosing the meta spec over the similarly skilled/geared player in the off meta spec, has a valid reason to do so. When a spec performs better, the content is easier, and players of any skill level can progress farther, and just because it can be done, doesn't mean everyone can do it, and if they can do it easier with a meta spec, that is a balance concern. Nobody likes to perform poorly, and even scrubs progress father on the OP meta specs. Dismissing the concerns as being only valid among the very best players in the world is dismissing huge swaths of the problem as not existing when in fact they do.

    Balance affects everyone who is trying to do better than they've done before, and I promise you that is not just the world first crowd.
    I mean, I repeatedly said yes it's absolutely a problem that needs to be fixed. But if you're not killing mythic bosses, I guarantee you it's not because you're playing MW over Shaman - it's other things. That doesn't mean MW doesn't need buffs or that Shaman isn't too strong, just that this is far more relevant at a level where all the OTHER factors are already taken care of.

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Yup. If you look at a top mistweaver parse you are likely to see multiple innervates. Not a great design that you're only viable if you have another class in there to buff you.
    Yup, makes me want to change mains but I have found fun with fist weaving legendary.
    Last edited by TigTone; 2020-12-28 at 05:04 AM.

  16. #16
    I've said it before and saying it again, if you have a class with arguably the best utility (yes, I'm looking at you shaman), you CAN'T have top tier HPS as well. There must be a tradeoff in the healer classes to be balanced. Best utility = worst hps and the other way around.

    That said, I don't want to have best HPS and just be a HPS-monkey, I want to be picked to raids for a mix of my utility and HPS. Atm my guild rather take 3 shamans than giving a spot to a MW and WHY SHOULDN'T THEY?? Everything I can do on my MW, our shammies can do just as good (if not better) with less effort, less mana usage, while also bringing a ton of better utility to the raid.

    World first or a LFR pugger, it doesn't matter. Everyone wanna be competitive at their level and if your guild is a normal only guild and struggle, obviously the RL would want the optimal setup for YOUR LEVEL of playing, hence dumping the druid and monk out of the healing team to use shammies and pally/disc. The content you are progressing is such an invalid argument, everyone wanna be as strong as possible at the level they play, period!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    I mean have you tried healing m+ with a paladin? Yeah you can do some damage but that doesnt help when the tank just dies.
    You are either a garbage holy pally or played with garbage holy pallies.

    Farming 15s for gear atm with 0 issues. Most hpallies on logs i see are hard casting holy light or flash. I MAYBE cast like 20ish a dungeon compared to some people at 100+.

    Full stack haste, everything haste, generate holy power, spend holy power, win.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    You are either a garbage holy pally or played with garbage holy pallies.

    Farming 15s for gear atm with 0 issues. Most hpallies on logs i see are hard casting holy light or flash. I MAYBE cast like 20ish a dungeon compared to some people at 100+.

    Full stack haste, everything haste, generate holy power, spend holy power, win.
    I am farming +29 keys on every healer and holy palas are just worse than shamans or holypriests. Guess your tank is mostly healing himself. Must be nice.

  19. #19
    MW is currently great in all endgame content, wtf are you talking about...

    Just because disc and resto shaman are broken right now, doesn't mean that MW is trash ffs.

    99% sure you're playing a priest in classic lol

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    MW is currently great in all endgame content, wtf are you talking about...

    Just because disc and resto shaman are broken right now, doesn't mean that MW is trash ffs.

    99% sure you're playing a priest in classic lol
    You can now stand in the same corner like the other 60000 people that are missing the point.
    It doesn't matter if your station wagon is brand new and works well, you still wont get picked for the Formula 1 race!

    Yes MW is OK but when comparing(!!) to the healers that have "our" raidspot, we're not good enough, by a mile! So Shamans OP or MW trash doesnt matter, the gap is too big between what gets used in raid and what not. As I wrote, we all compete at our own level and if a guild have spots for 4 healers and they have lots to chose from, obv most will stack shamans rather than adding a MW as we bring nothing that the others not already cover and also do better than us.

    I don't get why this is so hard to understand but noone here wanna be FOTM op like the shamans, we just want to be a tad more useful so we dont have to work overtime for the same result as other healers do with one hand, while STILL not bringing the raid utility they do.
    Last edited by Dawon; 2020-12-29 at 09:18 AM.

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