1. #3581
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    USSR has issues, but there were outside factors at play there. Perfectly fine? No... better than it went? Probably yes.

    China maybe, maybe not, but Chile probably would have been. Cuba probably would have been. Venezuela probably would have been.

    North Korea may have been. Vietnam probably would have been.

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    Pointing to history to say "look it can't work" while ignoring our actions....is silly.
    Stalin was straight murdering millions off people...

    Who is saying, "look it can't work?"

    I'm saying go enjoy your communism, just stop trying to force it onto others.

  2. #3582
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post

    Pointing to history to say "look it can't work" while ignoring our actions....is silly.
    So is your cherry picking of the history you want to pay attention to.


    Communist countries did their own fucking around. And by communist I mean tried and failed to be communist and ended up being major authoritarian nightmares whole trying to spread or force their same system on others. Shit Mao's own fuckery in his own country is on pace to top the USs entire global fuckery in terms of people affected. Or any of the other countries you cited.


    Focusing on only the US fuckery and ignoring or downplaying the actions and fuckery of communist countries isn't silly. It's dumb. It's quite odd you think the USSR was some sort of benevolent actor.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2021-01-23 at 07:26 PM.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
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  3. #3583
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Stalin was straight murdering millions off people...

    Who is saying, "look it can't work?"

    I'm saying go enjoy your communism, just stop trying to force it onto others.
    Do you really want to include gulags... a temporary punishment where people were forced to work and typically were eventually released?

    There are sources on the death rates of prisoners... they were far lower under the "evil gulags" which I think Americans just use the word as part of some weird red scare propaganda.

    It's a prison where people work and eventually are released... you know... like American prisons... except we have private ones too

    Rates used to be between 40-60% and fell to 5-20% the high being about 20%. Terrible death rates still but much lower than they used to be.

    "enjoy your system of production I'm just saying don't force it" is foolish. You can't have multiple systems working like that especially in today's world.

    We have four media companies? Huge huge huge conglomerates and virtually monopolies are several sectors by a handful of companies. Do you think they want to give up power? In general the most popular stance goes towards a larger social expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    So is your cherry picking of the history you want to pay attention to.


    Communist countries did their own fucking around. And by communist I mean tried and failed to be communist and ended up being major authoritarian nightmares whole trying to spread or force their same system on others. Shit Mao's own fuckery in his own country is on pace to top the USs entire global fuckery in terms of people affected. Or any of the other countries you cited.


    Focusing on only the US fuckery and ignoring or downplaying the actions and fuckery of communist countries isn't silly. It's dumb. It's quite odd you think the USSR was some sort of benevolent actor.
    Benevolent actor? I did not say that. There was a downturn once they moved into forcing Russian culture and repressing other cultures. However, still given that... polling shows people preferred the old system. You get rid of one to replace it with... less voting, and the reduction of securities and you just end up worse off...

    If you really want to look at a metric a good one would be to compare both capitalist and socialist (or trying to be) countries around the same level to each other... there is not a single capitalist country that has ever performed better. They generally all have worse education, worse job numbers, worse homelessness issues, and malnutrition.

    Now I do not recall China and the USSR being the only two places... we have done some what.. 70 coups and regimen changes do you think they were all China and USSR? The CIA even put out a report back in the day noting how well the other countries were performing... This being part of the problem the capitalist western Europe and America had. you can't deprive your people of shit and then have some socialists country giving people shit and outperforming you... that just means people get ideas.

  4. #3584
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Do you really want to include gulags... a temporary punishment where people were forced to work and typically were eventually released?

    There are sources on the death rates of prisoners... they were far lower under the "evil gulags" which I think Americans just use the word as part of some weird red scare propaganda.

    It's a prison where people work and eventually are released... you know... like American prisons... except we have private ones too

    Rates used to be between 40-60% and fell to 5-20% the high being about 20%.

    "enjoy your system of production I'm just saying don't force it" is foolish. You can't have multiple systems working like that especially in today's world.

    We have four media companies? Huge huge huge conglomerates and virtually monopolies are several sectors by a handful of companies. Do you think they want to give up power? In general the most popular stance goes towards a larger social expansion.
    Yes, let's include those gulags, why the fuck would we ignore it? How many deaths are attributed to Stalin's actions? I want to see the number you conjure.

    How are you any different than those who want to force fascism onto others? This is a genuine question. You believe your type of government is best, but others disagree, myself included.

    Man, it looks like it's going to be very difficult to force communism onto people... I guess your beliefs aren't as popular, or as great, as you believe.

  5. #3585
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Not quite. This is only specific within the American framework because the notion of labor organization has been completely wiped out of the American national consciousness.

    There's a third pillar of power. The power of workers to withhold their labor.

    You can have as much money as you want, if people refuse to work for you unless you give in to their demands nothing gets done.
    You don't seem to have much experience with "right to work" states. Nor the tactics involved that force people to work.

  6. #3586
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, let's include those gulags, why the fuck would we ignore it? How many deaths are attributed to Stalin's actions? I want to see the number you conjure.

    How are you any different than those who want to force fascism onto others? This is a genuine question. You believe your type of government is best, but others disagree, myself included.

    Man, it looks like it's going to be very difficult to force communism onto people... I guess your beliefs aren't as popular, or as great, as you believe.
    Just because it doesn't seem to make much sense. We don't count the deaths of people who die in prisons horribly maintained as a kill count on the warden or the legislative branch. We don't blame Obama for the people that starve to death in the US thanks to illnesses due to malnutrition and food insecurity. In any case, Stalin did some good and some very very bad.... does that mean the system doesn't work because of one person in one powerful country?

    Just about every country where it has been attempted outside of the USSR and China has faced opposition from the outside many culminating in a CIA backed coup or regimen destabilisation. You can't both say "it can't work because look at where it failed" while also not looking at the why it failed. Stalin was one person he was not the system in its entirety and the lives of people after the USSR fell wasn't exactly better, hence why polling shows large swaths prefer the old system to the new.

    Fascism is the same as Socialism? You should realise when I say it should be forced, it would ideally be forced by the will of the majority.
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-01-23 at 07:48 PM.

  7. #3587
    when did themius become a tanky lol

  8. #3588
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    when did themius become a tanky lol
    I am not a tankie... please tell me why you would think that.

  9. #3589
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Just because it doesn't seem to make much sense. We don't count the deaths of people who die in prisons horribly maintained as a kill count on the warden or the legislative branch. We don't blame Obama for the people that starve to death in the US thanks to illnesses due to malnutrition and food insecurity. In any case, Stalin did some good and some very very bad.... does that mean the system doesn't work because of one person in one powerful country?

    Just about every country where it has been attempted outside of the USSR and China has faced opposition from the outside many culminating in a CIA backed coup or regimen destabilisation. You can't both say "it can't work because look at where it failed" while also not looking at the why it failed. Stalin was one person he was not the system in its entirety and the lives of people after the USSR fell wasn't exactly better, hence why polling shows large swaths prefer the old system to the new.

    Fascism is the same as Socialism? You should realise when I say it should be forced, it would ideally be forced by the will of the majority.
    Experts put that number at 15-30 million fucking people. I get that you want to sell the idea that life in the gulags was pretty great, but histrorians don't seem to agree.

    Now, if your system was truly that great, why the need to be so forceful in implementing it? Here's why, most peoe disagree with you. The problem with only caring about what the majority wants, is that the minority almost always gets oppressed as a result.

    I don't support your idea of government. Stop trying to force it on me.

  10. #3590
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Experts put that number at 15-30 million fucking people. I get that you want to sell the idea that life in the gulags was pretty great, but histrorians don't seem to agree.

    Now, if your system was truly that great, why the need to be so forceful in implementing it? Here's why, most peoe disagree with you. The problem with only caring about what the majority wants, is that the minority almost always gets oppressed as a result.

    I don't support your idea of government. Stop trying to force it on me.
    And many other experts dispute those numbers as some things have been counted that logically shouldn't be.

    Pretty great? Tell me why you would think I would think that when I am comparing them to American forced prison labour... which I am also against? Don't tell me you're one of those people who think using Stalin is some sort of fucking gotcha lol, because that'd be ridiculous....


    Now, if your system was truly that great, why the need to be so forceful in implementing it? Here's why, most peoe disagree with you. The problem with only caring about what the majority wants, is that the minority almost always gets oppressed as a result.
    This is pure folly... how did we get out of feudalism?

    Tell me... were peasants uprising that failed just proof that monarchy authoritarianism was the best system?

    The last argument you gave is just... ridiculous. Currently, our system runs on minority authority... a minority that by and large abuses the masses to make more money. You are giving conflicting arguments of "if your system is so good why do you need to force it" to "if your system is so good and the majority support it that's bad because then the minority will be oppressed!" why? why would they be oppressed as part of the system itself?

    Capitalism by its very virtue of existence is systemic oppression of people who work, constant exploitation that clearly doesn't work when you just look at how our country has been going. You mean you are worried about which minority getting oppressed?

    Take the USSR part of their downfall was the oppression of minorities but the big issue around that oppression was oppression of the culture of the people. That isn't a direct cause of communism... note jim crow.
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-01-23 at 08:11 PM.

  11. #3591
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm actually fine when threads take a different turn. It all originated from trying to decide of anarchism is inherently left, or right.
    And we don't need to decide on that.

    We can say that the ones storming the capitol are right-wing at least all but one (who I don't know if he actually did anything wrong; I'm not sure he was seen on any images) and it seems he was identified as a provocateur in Portland.
    We can say that the ones destroying some shop windows in Portland are left-wing, and understand that if you are far-left then you are not in favor of Biden.

    That doesn't mean that every right-wing or left-wing person does one or the other.
    And trying to argue that "anarchism is x-wing, storming the capitol is anarchy, therefore it was x-wing persons storming the capitol" is just confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Regardless, pushing it back to the topic. These asshats aren't anarchists, they're violent fascists and terrorists. The more news that comes out, the more you see that the groups like the Oathkeepers and 3%ers were coordinating their attacks, and were plotting significantly more violence. Many opted for violence out of opportunity, but for quite a few, it was all planned.
    Yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Experts put that number at 15-30 million fucking people. I get that you want to sell the idea that life in the gulags was pretty great, but histrorians don't seem to agree.
    For good reasons.

    Calling them soviet concentration camps might get the message across more clearly.

  12. #3592
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    And many other experts dispute those numbers as some things have been counted that logically shouldn't be.

    Pretty great? Tell me why you would think I would think that when I am comparing them to American forced prison labour... which I am also against? Don't tell me you're one of those people who think using Stalin is some sort of fucking gotcha lol, because that'd be ridiculous....




    This is pure folly... how did we get out of feudalism?

    Tell me... were peasants uprising that failed just proof that monarchy authoritarianism was the best system?

    The last argument you gave is just... ridiculous. Currently, our system runs on minority authority... a minority that by and large abuses the masses to make more money. You are giving conflicting arguments of "if your system is so good why do you need to force it" to "if your system is so good and the majority support it that's bad because then the minority will be oppressed!" why? why would they be oppressed as part of the system itself?

    Capitalism by its very virtue of existence is systemic oppression of people who work, constant exploitation that clearly doesn't work when you just look at how our country has been going. You mean you are worried about which minority getting oppressed?

    Take the USSR part of their downfall was the oppression of minorities but the big issue around that oppression was oppression of the culture of the people. That isn't a direct cause of communism... note jim crow.
    I asked for your number, you refused to give it.

    You were the one who brought up gulags... you did that. You argued to defend... checking... fucking gulags.

    My argument has remained the same:

    I support you enacting whatever system you like. I oppose your efforts to try and force others into that system.

    They would be oppressed... checking... because that is almost always the fucking case when authoritarians are in power, and want to force things onto others.

    I don't want your brand of communism, and if you wish to force it upon me, you will be met with strenuous resistance. I don't give a shit if you think it's better, I do not.

    Now, back to the topic at hand. I really despise violent authoritarians.

  13. #3593
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Edit: Why would an ancient villain of immense power put their initial on a belt? Because villains have communal laundry and ending up with Magneto’s belt is embarrassing. The red just clashes with blue... and the fit is just off... Dazzler would just give them endless shit...
    Super important point of order.

    Magneto's belt is Purple, not red.

    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-01-23 at 08:43 PM.

  14. #3594
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I asked for your number, you refused to give it.

    You were the one who brought up gulags... you did that. You argued to defend... checking... fucking gulags.

    My argument has remained the same:

    I support you enacting whatever system you like. I oppose your efforts to try and force others into that system.

    They would be oppressed... checking... because that is almost always the fucking case when authoritarians are in power, and want to force things onto others.

    I don't want your brand of communism, and if you wish to force it upon me, you will be met with strenuous resistance. I don't give a shit if you think it's better, I do not.

    Now, back to the topic at hand. I really despise violent authoritarians.
    Being that the type of system usually starts with the state..

  15. #3595
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Being that the type of system usually starts with the state..
    Well, enjoy your "state," just don't try to force others into it.

    It's a shame violent fascists feel the need to kill those who don't want to be in their system.

  16. #3596
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Well, enjoy your "state," just don't try to force others into it.

    It's a shame violent fascists feel the need to kill those who don't want to be in their system.
    "government does things" doesn't = evil you know... doesn't = fascist you know.. fascism has a specific deficinition and it usually doesn't include a mass movement of working class people lol.

  17. #3597
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    "government does things" doesn't = evil you know... doesn't = fascist you know.. fascism has a specific deficinition and it usually doesn't include a mass movement of working class people lol.
    The issue is how authoritarian one seeks to be. Your method of governance doesn't look to much different than that of the fascists who stormed the Capitol Building. I don't want either one, yet both of you want to force me to live under your system.

    I politely decline your communist society, have a wonderful life.

  18. #3598
    Legendary! Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Super important point of order.

    Magneto's belt is Purple, not red.

    When he's being true to himself, it's purple. When he's going against his better judgement, it's white. And "tacticool". And giant X on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  19. #3599
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The issue is how authoritarian one seeks to be. Your method of governance doesn't look to much different than that of the fascists who stormed the Capitol Building. I don't want either one, yet both of you want to force me to live under your system.
    You've somehow managed to twist yourself into arguing that any kind of rule of law is fascism.

    Which is nuts, dude.


  20. #3600
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    When he's being true to himself, it's purple. When he's going against his better judgement, it's white. And "tacticool". And giant X on it.

    Why does magneto have camel toe?
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

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