Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[Elenos]

Couple of things...

Until 1979, the glory of the confederacy, was being taught in southern schools. As in, these people were educated to believe this.

The success of things like The Welfare Queen character, justified being against social programs, in the name of self preservation.

The problem with addressing both of these issues....

The problem in addressing these issues is that you're using examples of Southern Racism, which is very real I might add, to try and explain why certain political outcomes occur.

That is after TWO elections where the outcome of the presidency wasn't decided by some state like Alabama and South Carolina but by states like Florida, with a diverse electorate, and the Rust Belt states of WI, MI and PA and let's not forget Trump won Florida twice with a massive boost from latino voters and increase his minority voter support in 2020. Crying about racism won't get you anywhere. It's an issue, that's true, it is not THE issue that is deciding these elections or political support for X and Z.

As for people voting against their interest to which many have pointed out to: That's pure bullshit, most people vote FOR their own personal selfish interests, it's what voting is generally about, some don't and think of the bigger picture but the overwhelming majority of people around the world do it for purely personal selfish gains.

That they do not believe it would benefit them to support a democrat vs a republican doesn't change that.

[Levelfive]

The problem in addressing these issues is that you're using examples of Southern Racism, which is very real I might add, to try and explain why certain political outcomes occur.

That is after TWO elections where the outcome of the presidency wasn't decided by some state like Alabama and South Carolina but by states like Florida, with a diverse electorate, and the Rust Belt states of WI, MI and PA and let's not forget Trump won Florida twice with a massive boost from latino voters and increase his minority voter support in 2020. Crying about racism won't get you anywhere. It's an issue, that's true, it is not THE issue that is deciding these elections or political support for X and Z.

As for people voting against their interest to which many have pointed out to: That's pure bullshit, most people vote FOR their own personal selfish interests, it's what voting is generally about, some don't and think of the bigger picture but the overwhelming majority of people around the world do it for purely personal selfish gains.

That they do not believe it would benefit them to support a democrat vs a republican doesn't change that.

White people being in reflexive, belligerent denial about racism is tired. Trump lost the popular vote twice and barely eked out an affirmative action for white Republicans electoral college win in 2016 while losing by ~3 million votes. What we were talking about was the racism that animates far right extremists and well off suburbanites alike into becoming violent insurrectionists who prefer whiteness to democracy. It's not new, it's just newly ascendant (again) and will be a source of sporadic violence for the next couple decades because they had an avatar god king.

[Endus]

Crying about racism won't get you anywhere. It's an issue, that's true, it is not THE issue that is deciding these elections or political support for X and Z.

No issue is "the issue" in any election. The idea that there is any one issue that is all that matters in an election is basically just nonsense. It's an argument used to try and get people to shut up about issues you personally don't support action on.

Politics isn't about any one thing. The political system is perfectly capable of handling a whole wide range of issues simultaneously, and in fact, couldn't possibly do the job that it does if it couldn't.

You're essentially just asking people to shut up about racism because you don't want anti-racism policies to move forward. Nothing more.

[Omega10]

Hard disagree here. This is *primarily* due to racism. People have been trying to tell everyone for years now that this was never about "economic insecurity." I'm actually embarrassed for these authors who can't quite suss out the common thread between wealthy white suburbanites and Proud Boys , and think they're warning of a "new" kind of American extremist, when it's the same old rotten racist American extremist (astronaut meme here). White supremacist movements will inevitably lead to violence because it's rooted in the same pathological sense of entitlement, NOT because people don't tiptoe around their racial derangement or pay proper attention to them. Its periodic insurgence* is a result of appeasement or the outright coddling they get, either from white supremacist political figures or Democrats who get suckered into imagining they're victims of circumstances and try to "reach out" and "understand" them. These are not people inexplicably voting against their own interests--as Isabel Wilkerson notes: “Why are people voting against their own interests, willing to elect right-wing oligarchs, forgo health insurance, risk contamination of the water and air? What had not been considered is the people voting this way were, in fact, voting their interest. Maintaining a caste system as it had always been was in their interest.” LBJ said something similar (and significantly more crudely) ~55 years ago. Republicans have been milking white people's self-inflicted psychic "wound" hard since (at least) Pat Buchanan encouraged Nixon to get more white voters by telling them how much black voters liked Democrats. This is an old ugly phenomenon whose lifeblood is narcissistic victim-whoring, and it should be hounded to the far reaches of society, until people learn better and are capable of rejoining humanity by demonstrating they can live in peace with their neighbors.

ETA: Meant to say resurgence, but I think I'll leave it.

In this case, and I am not sure you are wrong, then basically we have to fight them tooth and nail.

Corporate America is at least helping with this battle as this racism no longer suits their purposes. I watched the first 3 and a half quarters of the Super Bowl, and the NFL put up quite a few Black Lives Matters inspired clips that were quite moving. And, to make sure everyone in a loud room understood what one commercial was about, the words something like We are donating lots of money to fight systemic racism were written clearly on the screen. And they were there for long enough for them to have their impact.

Politically, it means democrats just have to hold their ground and do what the can for America in the meantime. And shrug off everyone taking potshots at them. Because this kind of racism cannot be negotiated with, it just flat out needs to be defeated.

In the meantime, practicing good government policies knowing the republicans will do everything they can to ridicule this and nitpick anything they can is the way to go. And with the republicans pretty much able to keep the US government from doing much, at least until 2022, well I guess it means that pressure is put on corporate America to move things forward. And they most certainly are doing quite a bit of that.

During the Super Bowl, there was some panoramic shots showing the cut outs that were there (over half of the seats), and there also was a shot of a family. It was the family of the police officer who lost his life fighting the Trump terrorists at the capitol. Honoring him in that way, and in such a public way, is a fairly powerful way for corporate America, in this case the NFL, to say a loud FUCK YOU to the Trump terrorists.

It will be a long fight, a marathon not a sprint. I like my story of economic prosperity having a chance of making all this go faster and easier, but I fear and suspect that your more grim story might be more accurate.

[Levelfive]

In this case, and I am not sure you are wrong, then basically we have to fight them tooth and nail.

Corporate America is at least helping with this battle as this racism no longer suits their purposes. I watched the first 3 and a half quarters of the Super Bowl, and the NFL put up quite a few Black Lives Matters inspired clips that were quite moving. And, to make sure everyone in a loud room understood what one commercial was about, the words something like We are donating lots of money to fight systemic racism were written clearly on the screen. And they were there for long enough for them to have their impact.

Politically, it means democrats just have to hold their ground and do what the can for America in the meantime. And shrug off everyone taking potshots at them. Because this kind of racism cannot be negotiated with, it just flat out needs to be defeated.

In the meantime, practicing good government policies knowing the republicans will do everything they can to ridicule this and nitpick anything they can is the way to go. And with the republicans pretty much able to keep the US government from doing much, at least until 2022, well I guess it means that pressure is put on corporate America to move things forward. And they most certainly are doing quite a bit of that.

During the Super Bowl, there was some panoramic shots showing the cut outs that were there (over half of the seats), and there also was a shot of a family. It was the family of the police officer who lost his life fighting the Trump terrorists at the capitol. Honoring him in that way, and in such a public way, is a fairly powerful way for corporate America, in this case the NFL, to say a loud FUCK YOU to the Trump terrorists.

It will be a long fight, a marathon not a sprint. I like my story of economic prosperity having a chance of making all this go faster and easier, but I fear and suspect that your more grim story might be more accurate.

Yeah, this is going to be a long, difficult, occasionally violent haul. And it is a very real and pressing problem that decades ago right wing think tanks devised a long game to structurally box Democrats out of power, starting with capturing state legislatures to do the gerrymandering, packing courts to gut voting rights, and hobbling unions (Democrats' main source of money) and campaign finance laws, while Democrats were, I don't know, napping, fumbling, foolishly getting suckered into talking about policy, and hopelessly trying to appeal to people who hate them. And as I'm sure you know, Republicans are quadrupling their efforts at undermining democracy--like a hundred proposed voter suppression laws going on right now, Arizona legislature trying to give themselves the power to throw out election results and revoke certification. So we have the long haul with the white supremacist hive of angry bees, but we also have maybe 2 years to meaningfully shore up democracy. So there's that.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm glad to see this at least: 'Utah school will no longer allow parents to opt students out of Black History Month curriculum'

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...-history-month

[Themius]

Oh look judge allows the insurrectionist to go on holiday.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...o-trip-granted

Oh and look judge says they proud boys never can be released despite arguments that he could coordinate with members in another attack.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...ol-breach-case

Nuts what white skin gets you.

[Cts53]

Oh look judge allows the insurrectionist to go on holiday.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...o-trip-granted

Oh and look judge says they proud boys never can be released despite arguments that he could coordinate with members in another attack.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...ol-breach-case

Nuts what white skin gets you.

Yup, because white skin. /rolling-eyes

Let's just..idk..forget all the "protesters" during the countless BLM sessions who were just released getting off scotch free. Because that totally didn't happen...

[Elegiac]

Yup, because white skin. /rolling-eyes

Let's just..idk..forget all the "protesters" during the countless BLM sessions who were just released getting off scotch free. Because that totally didn't happen...

Glad to know you don't have an actual point besides whataboutism, rofl.

[Themius]

Yup, because white skin. /rolling-eyes

Let's just..idk..forget all the "protesters" during the countless BLM sessions who were just released getting off scotch free. Because that totally didn't happen...

One was part of SEDITION and the other part of a terror group tied to murders. But apparently the judge thinks sending a woman off for holiday to Mexico is totally cool. White skin....

[cubby]

Oh look judge allows the insurrectionist to go on holiday.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...o-trip-granted

Oh and look judge says they proud boys never can be released despite arguments that he could coordinate with members in another attack.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...ol-breach-case

Nuts what white skin gets you.

The article you linked re Proud Boys guy says he was released. Am I missing something here?

(not that I don't agree with your overall premise re skin color and our judicial system)

[Cts53]

Glad to know you don't have an actual point besides whataboutism, rofl.

I have nothing to really say about the actual protesters/rioters at the capital. In my eyes, they are as dumb and easily led as BLM/ANTIFA. Just taking a jab at the stupidity of "amazing what white skin gets you" that was posted. If anything, that is what annoys me. People are too quick to look at skin and make assumptions off of that, as opposed to potential other factors that might come into play.

[Cts53]

One was part of SEDITION and the other part of a terror group tied to murders. But apparently the judge thinks sending a woman off for holiday to Mexico is totally cool. White skin....

Please provide proof that it was due to "white skin". You cannot prove a negative, but you can prove a positive. So, burden of proof lies with you dude.

[Elegiac]

I have nothing to really say about the actual protesters/rioters at the capital.

Then say less. Because that's the topic under discussion, not white fragility.

[Cts53]

Then say less. Because that's the topic under discussion, not white fragility.

Okay rofl. I totally suffer from "white fragility" XD

[Elegiac]

Okay rofl. I totally suffer from "white fragility" XD

Yep, or else you wouldn't get so defensive when people point something out and then claim a position of personal neutrality. Rofl.

Y'all are so predictable in discussions like these it may as well be scripted.

[Cts53]

Yep, or else you wouldn't get so defensive when people point something out and then claim a position of personal neutrality. Rofl.

Y'all are so predictable in discussions like these it may as well be scripted.

1) Define "y'all", because pretty sure I am here by myself.

2) If you think that's defensive, then that's on you. I made a comment, but have yet to act defensively.

3) I claimed a position of neutrality on 1 topic, not the other.

Funnily enough, you say I have white fragility yet have no idea what my skin color actually is. Way to go.

[cubby]

One was part of SEDITION and the other part of a terror group tied to murders. But apparently the judge thinks sending a woman off for holiday to Mexico is totally cool. White skin....

That kind of thing might seem weird but is really normal. The details matter here - mostly that it was already arranged, through "work", and she asked the court for permission. I think the trifecta of circumstances allowed her to travel.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, or else you wouldn't get so defensive when people point something out and then claim a position of personal neutrality. Rofl.

Y'all are so predictable in discussions like these it may as well be scripted.

It's entirely possible they've never even heard of white fragility. People who need help typically don't recognize that they do and what category of ailment they fall under, especially when it's an issue of their opinion and reasoning being part of the ailment.

[Themius]

Please provide proof that it was due to "white skin". You cannot prove a negative, but you can prove a positive. So, burden of proof lies with you dude.

This is as stupid as asking for proof that the judicial system is racist.

- - - Updated - - -

That kind of thing might seem weird but is really normal. The details matter here - mostly that it was already arranged, through "work", and she asked the court for permission. I think the trifecta of circumstances allowed her to travel.

- - - Updated - - -



It's entirely possible they've never even heard of white fragility. People who need help typically don't recognize that they do and what category of ailment they fall under, especially when it's an issue of their opinion and reasoning being part of the ailment.

Do you buy that excuse for the inequality? “Insurrectionist on video speaking about their having taken part and looking forward to taking part in another attack gets to go to Mexico because work set it up and she asked if she can go to Mexico”

[cubby]

Do you buy that excuse for the inequality? “Insurrectionist on video speaking about their having taken part and looking forward to taking part in another attack gets to go to Mexico because work set it up and she asked if she can go to Mexico”

In this case, yes - but I will be the first to admit that we suffer from ENORMOUS inequality in our law enforcement and judicial system based on skin color. Courts do typically let people travel under those circumstances that I laid out. And I will further admit that I don't think if the Proud Boys guy had the same circumstances, he would have been allowed to travel to Mexico.

All of that being said, we do have an extradition treaty with Mexico, and we'd get her back if she fled. Then she would go to jail for a LONG time, regardless of the insurrection related charges.

[downnola]

1) Define "y'all", because pretty sure I am here by myself.

2) If you think that's defensive, then that's on you. I made a comment, but have yet to act defensively.

3) I claimed a position of neutrality on 1 topic, not the other.

Funnily enough, you say I have white fragility yet have no idea what my skin color actually is. Way to go.

You're not the first person to scoff at the idea that systemic racism exists in the United States justice system while also implying in another statement that BLM and the Trump cult seditionists are two sides of the same coin.

And yeah, I'd bet the bank on you being a white dude that votes republican, opposes abortion, and thinks the wage gap is propaganda.