Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[Cthulhu 2020]

so was the rule enacted yet or not then? You keep changing your mind about it. Or does the rule have different start dates for democrats than republicans

Don't forget guys, this is the same person ragging on antifa for violence who refuses to condemn white supremacist Trump insurrection terrorists.

[beanman12345]

You did not read the investigation then, the support for the riots and violence against career politicians is not just coming from the right, from Trump supporters or from racists. Hoping that people are only just as angry as they've always been is wishful thinking. Sadly Biden's band-aid measures won't suffice to contain it. Radical change is required.

They wont just stew.

The impotent fascists, the ones who pretend they are anything but hardcore fascists, and embarrass themselves on sub forums of gaming web sites by desperately pleading for radical change, they will stew and their punishment will be endless mockery and being shat all over. The openly fascists ones may try shit, and will go to prison before or after their crimes or they'll coward their way out by shooting themselves before arrest from a mass shooting spree. Regardless, we'll continue giving the finger to these human shit stains. And those who don't like that, well, their tears are delicious.

[Dontrike]

Once again. Nancy Pelosi's rules do not apply to Nancy Pelosi.



https://nypost.com/2021/02/06/gop-wa...le-in-capitol/

Okay and? Fine her too if that's the case. This isn't really the revelation you're hoping it is.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean. The potato in chief lies to you all the time and so does kneepads harris. So you're ok with liars.It just seems to depend on what letter is behind their name.

Oh sweet summer child, tell us when they hit 100 lies in one 2 hour rally speech and then we'll talk, until then you're grasping at straws harder than Scarecrow looking to put himself back together.

[SirBeef]

I saw with my own eyes that Mr. "the game" went to McDonalds and grabbed someone's baby, put it between a sesame seed bun, and devoured it RIGHT in front of the momma. Then he refused to share his fries. Sure, same as the Capitol building McDonald's has surveillance cameras so footage of this would've probably been made public by now, but since it hasn't you'll just have to take my word on it that it's absolutely true.

Also, isn't it a bit soon for Trump supporters to be like "U SUPPART A LIER!!!" after the tens of thousands of confirmed lies by the last guy? You gotta let that shit stew simmer for a bit before you try to serve out a heaping helping of hypocrite.

That said, IF Pelosi broke her own rules she should receive the same fine as anyone else. Though until there's proof beyond the word of two disgruntled liars with an axe to grind, I'll be just a tad skeptical.

Funny, I saw him distributing child porn in the basement of a pizzeria. No cameras but trust me. I am a more reliable source than the NYpost.
[Infraction]

[Belize]

"What’s clear is that the Capitol riot revealed a new force in American politics—not merely a mix of right-wing organizations, but a broader mass political movement that has violence at its core and draws strength even from places where Trump supporters are in the minority."

Sounds about right. It has very little to do with Trump - and Biden and his supporters need to be very careful the coming years they don't add more fuel to the flames. (as most Biden-supporters however -are- doing on this very subforums). Seems rather people are entirely clueless about what drives this sentiment and they've no interest in trying to gain a deeper understanding. Too obsessed with agendas that are entirely irrelevant to the anger that boils under the surface, not just in the USA, but across the entire western world.

Why am I not surprised to see you advocate capitulating to the right wing terrorists...

[Rozz]

Remember to stay on topic, this isn't a thread to post any petty thing done by a party member.

[Levelfive]

Yeah but the gist of her comment is accurate. There are reasons that Trump has not already been convicted in the Senate, and is very likely going to not be convicted when all is said and done. "Trump tapped into so much anger" means quite clearly that this anger exists and is not going to go away easily.

Some of this is due to racism. But a lot is due to the fact that the US is falling apart. And the stimulus packages that passed, being so overwhelmingly used to help out major corporations, many of which didn't even do the minimal job of retaining the workers they were supposed to retain, certainly did not help.

White Americans are coming to grips with the fact that economic realities that used to happen only to black and brown people, and to Muslims and gays and atheists, are now hitting them square in the face. And now republicans are likely to succeed in watering down the current stimulus package to the point that it is somewhat helpful, but only for a short time. Democrats only get 1 bill that can be passed via reconciliation.

McConnell and Manchin have done a good job of shielding Biden from a lot of the anger that will continue to brew as the US continues to falter. But the anger will be going somewhere. And she is correct that Biden needs to be quite aware of the anger - to mitigate it as much as possible, and let others like McConnell and Manchin channel it away from him when necessary.

Hard disagree here. This is *primarily* due to racism. People have been trying to tell everyone for years now that this was never about "economic insecurity." I'm actually embarrassed for these authors who can't quite suss out the common thread between wealthy white suburbanites and Proud Boys , and think they're warning of a "new" kind of American extremist, when it's the same old rotten racist American extremist (astronaut meme here). White supremacist movements will inevitably lead to violence because it's rooted in the same pathological sense of entitlement, NOT because people don't tiptoe around their racial derangement or pay proper attention to them. Its periodic insurgence* is a result of appeasement or the outright coddling they get, either from white supremacist political figures or Democrats who get suckered into imagining they're victims of circumstances and try to "reach out" and "understand" them. These are not people inexplicably voting against their own interests--as Isabel Wilkerson notes: “Why are people voting against their own interests, willing to elect right-wing oligarchs, forgo health insurance, risk contamination of the water and air? What had not been considered is the people voting this way were, in fact, voting their interest. Maintaining a caste system as it had always been was in their interest.” LBJ said something similar (and significantly more crudely) ~55 years ago. Republicans have been milking white people's self-inflicted psychic "wound" hard since (at least) Pat Buchanan encouraged Nixon to get more white voters by telling them how much black voters liked Democrats. This is an old ugly phenomenon whose lifeblood is narcissistic victim-whoring, and it should be hounded to the far reaches of society, until people learn better and are capable of rejoining humanity by demonstrating they can live in peace with their neighbors.

ETA: Meant to say resurgence, but I think I'll leave it.

[Felya]

Hard disagree here. This is *primarily* due to racism. People have been trying to tell everyone for years now that this was never about "economic insecurity." I'm actually embarrassed for these authors who can't quite suss out the common thread between wealthy white suburbanites and Proud Boys , and think they're warning of a "new" kind of American extremist, when it's the same old rotten racist American extremist (astronaut meme here). White supremacist movements will inevitably lead to violence because it's rooted in the same pathological sense of entitlement, NOT because people don't tiptoe around their racial derangement or pay proper attention to them. Its periodic insurgence is a result of appeasement or the outright coddling they get, either from white supremacist political figures or Democrats who get suckered into imagining they're victims of circumstances and try to "reach out" and "understand" them. These are not people inexplicably voting against their own interests--as Isabel Wilkerson notes: “Why are people voting against their own interests, willing to elect right-wing oligarchs, forgo health insurance, risk contamination of the water and air? What had not been considered is the people voting this way were, in fact, voting their interest. Maintaining a caste system as it had always been was in their interest.” LBJ said something similar (and significantly more crudely) ~55 years ago. Republicans have been milking white people's self-inflicted psychic "wound" hard since (at least) Pat Buchanan encouraged Nixon to get more white voters by telling them how much black voters liked Democrats. This is an old ugly phenomenon whose lifeblood is narcissistic victim-whoring, and it should be hounded to the far reaches of society, until people learn better and are capable of rejoining humanity by demonstrating they can live in peace with their neighbors.

Couple of things...

Until 1979, the glory of the confederacy, was being taught in southern schools. As in, these people were educated to believe this.

The success of things like The Welfare Queen character, justified being against social programs, in the name of self preservation.

The problem with addressing both of these issues, is that any attempt to do so, is seen as an attack... because you are kinda calling these people poor and stupid... while GOP reinforces them with real American like rhetoric, that will only exist if they vote GOP. How do you tell people, what they learned is wrong? How do you tell people, that they are the ones benefiting from programs, they have been convinced only benefits a different race? How do you do it, without a reply that ignores everything, to crawl into a ball of ‘I’m not racist’?

Edit: Isabel Wilkerson is projecting. She would be right, if the people she is talking about, were taught the same thing she was. That had the same social reinforcements of her opinions, as the people she is talking about. What if it is self preservation and voting in your self interest, but the actual thing we are voting, is different?

What if Joe Biden met the Joe Biden that Trump supporters have been convinced exists? I don’t think those two Joes would have anything to talk about and probably dislike each other. That’s not because they support some cast system, but if the same Joe Biden was running that you voted for, they would have voted for him as well. No one likes Trump’s Joe Biden... I wouldn’t have voted for that Joe either...

[Levelfive]

Couple of things...

Until 1979, the glory of the confederacy, was being taught in southern schools. As in, these people were educated to believe this.

The success of things like The Welfare Queen character, justified being against social programs, in the name of self preservation.

The problem with addressing both of these issues, is that any attempt to do so, is seen as an attack... because you are kinda calling these people poor and stupid... while GOP reinforces them with real American like rhetoric, that will only exist if they vote GOP. How do you tell people, what they learned is wrong? How do you tell people, that they are the ones benefiting from programs, they have been convinced only benefits a different race? How do you do it, without a reply that ignores everything, to crawl into a ball of ‘I’m not racist’?

I mean, if you're asking me, personally, I consider them irretrievable and largely irredeemable, unless and until they demonstrate otherwise. The burden is on them--if they can't be bothered, I'm not going to invest a scintilla of energy into trying to teach them they're wrong. Did you see this: Utah school allowing parents to opt students out of Black History Month curriculum? I'm done. I want them to have health care and a living wage and clean air and water, but it's utterly immaterial to me whether they come along, learn, participate, or entrench themselves further in their anti-democracy, anti-social, grievance-whoring delusions.

[Felya]

I mean, if you're asking me, personally, I consider them irretrievable and largely irredeemable, unless and until they demonstrate otherwise. The burden is on them--if they can't be bothered, I'm not going to invest a scintilla of energy into trying to teach them they're wrong. Did you see this: Utah school allowing parents to opt students out of Black History Month curriculum? I'm done. I want them to have health care and a living wage and clean air and water, but it's utterly immaterial to me whether they come along, learn, participate, or entrench themselves further in their anti-democracy, anti-social, grievance-whoring delusions.

I’d only agree with a caveat... they are fully capable of joining the real world. But... our infrastructure... like mental health and adult education... are simply not equipped to do it... and we as just randoms have no ability to do so... and a lot of our attempts seem to have the counter effect.

[Levelfive]

I’d only agree with a caveat... they are fully capable of joining the real world. But... our infrastructure... like mental health and adult education... are simply not equipped to do it... and we as just randoms have no ability to do so... and a lot of our attempts seem to have the counter effect.

A couple things--how exactly is Isabel Wilkerson "projecting"? Also, if your hypothesis were correct, that it's simply a matter of what's taught in schools, everyone in the south would hold the same views. But of course they don't. If it were truly economic, a majority of poor black people would have also responded positively Trump's "message," but of course they didn't. Trump won every single demographic of white people in 2016, including the rich and college educated. Anyone on the left telling themselves this is borne out of shaky economic or educational circumstances rather than racist appeals is not looking at the data. Also, when you say, "the welfare queen character" was successful, you are again talking almost exclusively from a white voter perspective, which is myopic. They didn't get conned--they opted in. To return, they can opt out.

[Felya]

A couple things--how exactly is Isabel Wilkerson "projecting"?

I explained it... It starts around where I said... if they had the same experience as she does, she would be right.

Also, if your hypothesis were correct, that it's simply a matter of what's taught in schools, everyone in the south would hold the same views.

Everyone or large enough majority to hold office and enable an entire news media?

But of course they don't.

Yeah, can you imagine 5 people taking the same class, then 2 of them knowing better, 5 years later?

If it were truly economic, a majority of poor black people would have also responded positively Trump's "message," but of course they didn't.

Doesn’t make sense... Why would poor black people, respond to someone pushing a haphazard version of the welfare queen? Obviously it didn’t resonate...

Trump won every single demographic of white people in 2016, including the rich and college educated. Anyone on the left telling themselves this is borne out of shaky economic or educational circumstances rather than racist appeals is not looking at the data.

If your hypothesis were correct, that all Trump supporters voted due to racism, everyone voting Trump, would hold the same views.

Also, when you say, "the welfare queen character" was successful, you are again talking almost exclusively from a white Republican voter perspective, which is myopic. They didn't get conned--they opted in. To return, they can opt out.

Yeah, sounds like not everyone learned the same thing.

[Levelfive]

I explained it... It starts around where I said... if they had the same experience as she does, she would be right.



Everyone or large enough majority to hold office and enable an entire news media?



Yeah, can you imagine 5 people taking the same class, then 2 of them knowing better, 5 years later?



Doesn’t make sense... Why would poor black people, respond to someone pushing a haphazard version of the welfare queen? Obviously it didn’t resonate...



If your hypothesis were correct, that all Trump supporters voted due to racism, everyone voting Trump, would hold the same views.



Yeah, sounds like not everyone learned the same thing.

1) No, you didn't explain it--"projecting" would mean she herself had the motive / interests she ascribed to white voters. Is that what you mean?

2) You're right, it doesn't make sense--that's one reason why the "economic insecurity" argument falls apart under scrutiny.

3) "I'm not a racist, I just voted for one." Mm'k

4) You are talking about white voters as if they're the default. That's myopic.

[Felya]

1) No, you didn't explain it--"projecting" would mean she herself had the motive / interests she ascribed to white voters. Is that what you mean?

No, I don’t know if she is white... I mean this:

She would be right, if the people she is talking about, were taught the same thing she was. That had the same social reinforcements of her opinions, as the people she is talking about. What if it is self preservation and voting in your self interest, but the actual thing we are voting, is different?

You are talking about white voters as if they're the default. That's myopic.

Your interpretation of what I said, being based on the voter’s race, is myopic...

[Levelfive]

No, I don’t know if she is white... I mean this:





Your interpretation of what I said, being based on the voter’s race, is myopic...

That doesn't explain how she's projecting, unless you're agreeing you used the wrong word. And if you weren't talking about voters' race, what did you mean by this?

Doesn’t make sense... Why would poor black people, respond to someone pushing a haphazard version of the welfare queen? Obviously it didn’t resonate...

[CostinR]

Couple of things...

Until 1979, the glory of the confederacy, was being taught in southern schools. As in, these people were educated to believe this.

The success of things like The Welfare Queen character, justified being against social programs, in the name of self preservation.

The problem with addressing both of these issues....

The problem in addressing these issues is that you're using examples of Southern Racism, which is very real I might add, to try and explain why certain political outcomes occur.

That is after TWO elections where the outcome of the presidency wasn't decided by some state like Alabama and South Carolina but by states like Florida, with a diverse electorate, and the Rust Belt states of WI, MI and PA and let's not forget Trump won Florida twice with a massive boost from latino voters and increase his minority voter support in 2020. Crying about racism won't get you anywhere. It's an issue, that's true, it is not THE issue that is deciding these elections or political support for X and Z.

As for people voting against their interest to which many have pointed out to: That's pure bullshit, most people vote FOR their own personal selfish interests, it's what voting is generally about, some don't and think of the bigger picture but the overwhelming majority of people around the world do it for purely personal selfish gains.

That they do not believe it would benefit them to support a democrat vs a republican doesn't change that.

[Levelfive]

The problem in addressing these issues is that you're using examples of Southern Racism, which is very real I might add, to try and explain why certain political outcomes occur.

That is after TWO elections where the outcome of the presidency wasn't decided by some state like Alabama and South Carolina but by states like Florida, with a diverse electorate, and the Rust Belt states of WI, MI and PA and let's not forget Trump won Florida twice with a massive boost from latino voters and increase his minority voter support in 2020. Crying about racism won't get you anywhere. It's an issue, that's true, it is not THE issue that is deciding these elections or political support for X and Z.

As for people voting against their interest to which many have pointed out to: That's pure bullshit, most people vote FOR their own personal selfish interests, it's what voting is generally about, some don't and think of the bigger picture but the overwhelming majority of people around the world do it for purely personal selfish gains.

That they do not believe it would benefit them to support a democrat vs a republican doesn't change that.

White people being in reflexive, belligerent denial about racism is tired. Trump lost the popular vote twice and barely eked out an affirmative action for white Republicans electoral college win in 2016 while losing by ~3 million votes. What we were talking about was the racism that animates far right extremists and well off suburbanites alike into becoming violent insurrectionists who prefer whiteness to democracy. It's not new, it's just newly ascendant (again) and will be a source of sporadic violence for the next couple decades because they had an avatar god king.

[Endus]

Crying about racism won't get you anywhere. It's an issue, that's true, it is not THE issue that is deciding these elections or political support for X and Z.

No issue is "the issue" in any election. The idea that there is any one issue that is all that matters in an election is basically just nonsense. It's an argument used to try and get people to shut up about issues you personally don't support action on.

Politics isn't about any one thing. The political system is perfectly capable of handling a whole wide range of issues simultaneously, and in fact, couldn't possibly do the job that it does if it couldn't.

You're essentially just asking people to shut up about racism because you don't want anti-racism policies to move forward. Nothing more.

[Omega10]

Hard disagree here. This is *primarily* due to racism. People have been trying to tell everyone for years now that this was never about "economic insecurity." I'm actually embarrassed for these authors who can't quite suss out the common thread between wealthy white suburbanites and Proud Boys , and think they're warning of a "new" kind of American extremist, when it's the same old rotten racist American extremist (astronaut meme here). White supremacist movements will inevitably lead to violence because it's rooted in the same pathological sense of entitlement, NOT because people don't tiptoe around their racial derangement or pay proper attention to them. Its periodic insurgence* is a result of appeasement or the outright coddling they get, either from white supremacist political figures or Democrats who get suckered into imagining they're victims of circumstances and try to "reach out" and "understand" them. These are not people inexplicably voting against their own interests--as Isabel Wilkerson notes: “Why are people voting against their own interests, willing to elect right-wing oligarchs, forgo health insurance, risk contamination of the water and air? What had not been considered is the people voting this way were, in fact, voting their interest. Maintaining a caste system as it had always been was in their interest.” LBJ said something similar (and significantly more crudely) ~55 years ago. Republicans have been milking white people's self-inflicted psychic "wound" hard since (at least) Pat Buchanan encouraged Nixon to get more white voters by telling them how much black voters liked Democrats. This is an old ugly phenomenon whose lifeblood is narcissistic victim-whoring, and it should be hounded to the far reaches of society, until people learn better and are capable of rejoining humanity by demonstrating they can live in peace with their neighbors.

ETA: Meant to say resurgence, but I think I'll leave it.

In this case, and I am not sure you are wrong, then basically we have to fight them tooth and nail.

Corporate America is at least helping with this battle as this racism no longer suits their purposes. I watched the first 3 and a half quarters of the Super Bowl, and the NFL put up quite a few Black Lives Matters inspired clips that were quite moving. And, to make sure everyone in a loud room understood what one commercial was about, the words something like We are donating lots of money to fight systemic racism were written clearly on the screen. And they were there for long enough for them to have their impact.

Politically, it means democrats just have to hold their ground and do what the can for America in the meantime. And shrug off everyone taking potshots at them. Because this kind of racism cannot be negotiated with, it just flat out needs to be defeated.

In the meantime, practicing good government policies knowing the republicans will do everything they can to ridicule this and nitpick anything they can is the way to go. And with the republicans pretty much able to keep the US government from doing much, at least until 2022, well I guess it means that pressure is put on corporate America to move things forward. And they most certainly are doing quite a bit of that.

During the Super Bowl, there was some panoramic shots showing the cut outs that were there (over half of the seats), and there also was a shot of a family. It was the family of the police officer who lost his life fighting the Trump terrorists at the capitol. Honoring him in that way, and in such a public way, is a fairly powerful way for corporate America, in this case the NFL, to say a loud FUCK YOU to the Trump terrorists.

It will be a long fight, a marathon not a sprint. I like my story of economic prosperity having a chance of making all this go faster and easier, but I fear and suspect that your more grim story might be more accurate.

[Levelfive]

In this case, and I am not sure you are wrong, then basically we have to fight them tooth and nail.

Corporate America is at least helping with this battle as this racism no longer suits their purposes. I watched the first 3 and a half quarters of the Super Bowl, and the NFL put up quite a few Black Lives Matters inspired clips that were quite moving. And, to make sure everyone in a loud room understood what one commercial was about, the words something like We are donating lots of money to fight systemic racism were written clearly on the screen. And they were there for long enough for them to have their impact.

Politically, it means democrats just have to hold their ground and do what the can for America in the meantime. And shrug off everyone taking potshots at them. Because this kind of racism cannot be negotiated with, it just flat out needs to be defeated.

In the meantime, practicing good government policies knowing the republicans will do everything they can to ridicule this and nitpick anything they can is the way to go. And with the republicans pretty much able to keep the US government from doing much, at least until 2022, well I guess it means that pressure is put on corporate America to move things forward. And they most certainly are doing quite a bit of that.

During the Super Bowl, there was some panoramic shots showing the cut outs that were there (over half of the seats), and there also was a shot of a family. It was the family of the police officer who lost his life fighting the Trump terrorists at the capitol. Honoring him in that way, and in such a public way, is a fairly powerful way for corporate America, in this case the NFL, to say a loud FUCK YOU to the Trump terrorists.

It will be a long fight, a marathon not a sprint. I like my story of economic prosperity having a chance of making all this go faster and easier, but I fear and suspect that your more grim story might be more accurate.

Yeah, this is going to be a long, difficult, occasionally violent haul. And it is a very real and pressing problem that decades ago right wing think tanks devised a long game to structurally box Democrats out of power, starting with capturing state legislatures to do the gerrymandering, packing courts to gut voting rights, and hobbling unions (Democrats' main source of money) and campaign finance laws, while Democrats were, I don't know, napping, fumbling, foolishly getting suckered into talking about policy, and hopelessly trying to appeal to people who hate them. And as I'm sure you know, Republicans are quadrupling their efforts at undermining democracy--like a hundred proposed voter suppression laws going on right now, Arizona legislature trying to give themselves the power to throw out election results and revoke certification. So we have the long haul with the white supremacist hive of angry bees, but we also have maybe 2 years to meaningfully shore up democracy. So there's that.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm glad to see this at least: 'Utah school will no longer allow parents to opt students out of Black History Month curriculum'

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...-history-month