1. #4081
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Sarif Industries, Detroit
    Posts
    28,801
    WTF.

    Right wing crowd of crazed drooling magahats in a bloodlust? "No weapons, no riot gear, nothing."

    BLM activists standing in a road blocking Trump's path to a church for a photo op? "Bring in the flash grenades and the smoke bombs"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    tRump himself along with all of his lawyers could be screaming "he's guilty" at the top of their lungs, and the senate republicans would still not vote to convict.
    At most Susan Collins will be "concerned" as she votes to acquit.

  2. #4082
    forgot there was a separate thread....



    OMG the irony


    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/capit...b6bde2f5c1d50b
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/01/us/ca...nvs/index.html

    It turns out that some of the people who stormed the U.S Capitol on Jan. 6 in hopes of overturning the presidential election didn’t even vote, according to a new CNN analysis.

    CNN reviewed voting records of people arrested for their involvement in the insurrection, and determined that at least eight of those facing criminal charges didn’t vote in the presidential election.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  3. #4083
    Pit Lord D Luniz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    The Coastal Plaguelands
    Posts
    2,276
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Unless you compare it to similar orders for similar events, this isn't really saying much of anything.

    Sounds like it could be just standard procedure when they expect local law enforcement to be the primary security.
    that claim goes out the window when they did this with BLM

    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  4. #4084
    AOC described her experience on Jan 6th during an Instagram live this evening. I hope the Senate calls her as a witness.

  5. #4085
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,467
    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    that claim goes out the window when they did this with BLM

    Picture seems to show unarmed MPs in normal military body armor, not riot gear (beyond CBR masks in pouches).
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  6. #4086
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Picture seems to show unarmed MPs in normal military body armor, not riot gear (beyond CBR masks in pouches).
    And the first part of the order says no body armor or helmets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  7. #4087
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,467
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And the first part of the order says no body armor or helmets.
    Which would have minimal effect on their ability to provide security. Neither group had any offensive means. Guys in nothing but shorts and sandals but armed with night sticks would have been a massive upgrade to either force. Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  8. #4088
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.
    Because that went so well at Kent?

  9. #4089
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,467
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Because that went so well at Kent?
    The bayonets actually did.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  10. #4090
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Which would have minimal effect on their ability to provide security. Neither group had any offensive means. Guys in nothing but shorts and sandals but armed with night sticks would have been a massive upgrade to either force. Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.
    That's not true at all. Read the full list. They cannot actually interact with protesters, cannot seek assistance from any of the other government personnel who were there, and couldn't actually do any law enforcement whatsoever.

    They were ordered to be traffic control.

    They were completely hamstrung, and you know it. So, feel free to keep being ridiculous in the name of fascists, I expect nothing less from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  11. #4091
    https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/02/...apitol-window/

    And add another in the bucket of, "These people are too stupid to be a serious threat."

    We already had the guy who wore his company badge, with his name, picture, and company name on it.

    We also have a guy who wore his work jacket to the riot, which has the name and phone number of his employer.

    Seriously, these chucklefucks should have spent less time yelling about wanting to find and fight antifa and more time paying attention to how antifa operates. I can't remember the last time one of those idiots did something this deeply stupid.

  12. #4092
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's not true at all. Read the full list. They cannot actually interact with protesters, cannot seek assistance from any of the other government personnel who were there, and couldn't actually do any law enforcement whatsoever.

    They were ordered to be traffic control.

    They were completely hamstrung, and you know it. So, feel free to keep being ridiculous in the name of fascists, I expect nothing less from you.
    I'm still taking Thekri's explanation as being accurate (he's generally right about this sort of stuff), which is essentially that this IS standard... But also that the BLM stuff was decidedly beyond standard:


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    The national guard is not supposed to have such authority. The use of the US military against US citizens is a VERY big deal, and the military was extremely upset about their forced involvement in 2020. Everything on that list is barred by default from use against US citizens, although I disagree with holding the release authority at the DoD level, it does need to be held at some level.

    The two main issues here are:
    1) We did see the employment of several of these things the next day, which means that either Miller did release his hold, or else this order was ignored.
    2) We did see the use of these things in the Capital last year, where it prompted considerable negative attention.

    To me the most troubling aspect to compare this crisis with the previous federal response to BLM protests wasn't the use of the Guard (Which was severely, and appropriately, limited), it was the presence of all those unnamed federal assets in response to the BLM protests. We saw the deployment of uniformed personnel with no identification, we saw the employment of ISR assets with no public awareness of where the information was going, or who could see it. We saw people being arrested or struck by people who had no legally declared authority to do so (Since we don't know who they were). I absolutely want to see all that investigated. But the use of the Guard in both scenarios seems mostly ok.

  13. #4093
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    I'm still taking Thekri's explanation as being accurate (he's generally right about this sort of stuff), which is essentially that this IS standard... But also that the BLM stuff was decidedly beyond standard:
    Some of the things are standard, but not others. The dude is an officer, and knows his stuff. But, not being able to interact with law enforcement, including asking for assistance, that's not normal. The other issue was the refusal to allow body armor and helmets.

    I absolutely get not arming them with firearms, that is very common. But, the way it's worded means that they cannot do much of anything. By the wording, they cannot even detain a violent protestor, and hold them for arrest by actual law enforcement.

    And let's not forget, the Guard wasn't even used. They wanted to be, and DC, Maryland, and Virginia were trying to use them... but were denied, even under those limited orders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  14. #4094
    Pit Lord D Luniz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    The Coastal Plaguelands
    Posts
    2,276
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Picture seems to show unarmed MPs in normal military body armor, not riot gear (beyond CBR masks in pouches).
    Not pictured was the use of tear gas, the low flying helicopter, the ATVs. But the guys in the picture got helmets and vests. Things denied for the Jan 5th-6th attempted coup.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Which would have minimal effect on their ability to provide security. Neither group had any offensive means. Guys in nothing but shorts and sandals but armed with night sticks would have been a massive upgrade to either force. Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.
    Tell that to all the officers with TBI
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  15. #4095
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Some of the things are standard, but not others. The dude is an officer, and knows his stuff. But, not being able to interact with law enforcement, including asking for assistance, that's not normal. The other issue was the refusal to allow body armor and helmets.

    I absolutely get not arming them with firearms, that is very common. But, the way it's worded means that they cannot do much of anything. By the wording, they cannot even detain a violent protestor, and hold them for arrest by actual law enforcement.

    And let's not forget, the Guard wasn't even used. They wanted to be, and DC, Maryland, and Virginia were trying to use them... but were denied, even under those limited orders.
    Oh, there were absolutely problems with how the NG was (and especially was not) utilized, I'm just not sure this letter in and of itself is the smoking gun some people seem to think it is.

  16. #4096
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Oh, there were absolutely problems with how the NG was (and especially was not) utilized, I'm just not sure this letter in and of itself is the smoking gun some people seem to think it is.
    The smoking gun was the refusal to allow for them to be deployed in the first place.

    This just shows the absolute hamstringing of their usage. It turned them into traffic control, that's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  17. #4097
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    57,752
    Just a reminder... Trump had unmarked vans snatching people off the street, during BLM protests.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #4098
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,467
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's not true at all. Read the full list. They cannot actually interact with protesters, cannot seek assistance from any of the other government personnel who were there, and couldn't actually do any law enforcement whatsoever.

    They were ordered to be traffic control.

    They were completely hamstrung, and you know it. So, feel free to keep being ridiculous in the name of fascists, I expect nothing less from you.
    Not having offensive weapons and full riot gear is a massive constraint on effectiveness no matter how you look at it, and my comment was strictly based on equipment not orders. But I don't expect you to notice such things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    Not pictured was the use of tear gas, the low flying helicopter, the ATVs. But the guys in the picture got helmets and vests. Things denied for the Jan 5th-6th attempted coup.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tell that to all the officers with TBI
    Don't get me wrong, I believe all rioters should be dealt with via extreme force.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  19. #4099
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Not having offensive weapons and full riot gear is a massive constraint on effectiveness no matter how you look at it, and my comment was strictly based on equipment not orders. But I don't expect you to notice such things.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Don't get me wrong, I believe all rioters should be dealt with via extreme force.
    It shows they were objectively more restricted than before... which is the point.

    Or, did you not notice that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  20. #4100
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,467
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It shows they were objectively more restricted than before... which is the point.

    Or, did you not notice that?
    I noticed that I pointed out equipment and what it means to their effectiveness.

    There is also the question of the legality of using NG troops as law enforcement in DC under the current command structure (they are under the control of the military when mobilized for any reason).
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •