Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[Adam Jensen]

Smoking gun: The orders from Miller to the DC National Guard for January 6 included in linked article— is a must read. The DC guard were allowed no helmets, no body armor, no weapons. They were not allowed to stop or arrest protesters. Letter orders no interference with rioters



Smoking gun of them telling the National Guard to basically stand down.

WTF.

Right wing crowd of crazed drooling magahats in a bloodlust? "No weapons, no riot gear, nothing."

BLM activists standing in a road blocking Trump's path to a church for a photo op? "Bring in the flash grenades and the smoke bombs"

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tRump himself along with all of his lawyers could be screaming "he's guilty" at the top of their lungs, and the senate republicans would still not vote to convict.

At most Susan Collins will be "concerned" as she votes to acquit.

[Zan15]

forgot there was a separate thread....



OMG the irony


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/capit...b6bde2f5c1d50b
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/01/us/ca...nvs/index.html

It turns out that some of the people who stormed the U.S Capitol on Jan. 6 in hopes of overturning the presidential election didn’t even vote, according to a new CNN analysis.

CNN reviewed voting records of people arrested for their involvement in the insurrection, and determined that at least eight of those facing criminal charges didn’t vote in the presidential election.

[D Luniz]

Unless you compare it to similar orders for similar events, this isn't really saying much of anything.

Sounds like it could be just standard procedure when they expect local law enforcement to be the primary security.

that claim goes out the window when they did this with BLM

[Vegas82]

AOC described her experience on Jan 6th during an Instagram live this evening. I hope the Senate calls her as a witness.

[Kellhound]

that claim goes out the window when they did this with BLM

Picture seems to show unarmed MPs in normal military body armor, not riot gear (beyond CBR masks in pouches).

[Machismo]

Picture seems to show unarmed MPs in normal military body armor, not riot gear (beyond CBR masks in pouches).

And the first part of the order says no body armor or helmets.

[Kellhound]

And the first part of the order says no body armor or helmets.

Which would have minimal effect on their ability to provide security. Neither group had any offensive means. Guys in nothing but shorts and sandals but armed with night sticks would have been a massive upgrade to either force. Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.

[Edge-]

Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.

Because that went so well at Kent?

[Kellhound]

Because that went so well at Kent?

The bayonets actually did.

[Machismo]

Which would have minimal effect on their ability to provide security. Neither group had any offensive means. Guys in nothing but shorts and sandals but armed with night sticks would have been a massive upgrade to either force. Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.

That's not true at all. Read the full list. They cannot actually interact with protesters, cannot seek assistance from any of the other government personnel who were there, and couldn't actually do any law enforcement whatsoever.

They were ordered to be traffic control.

They were completely hamstrung, and you know it. So, feel free to keep being ridiculous in the name of fascists, I expect nothing less from you.

[Edge-]

https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/02/...apitol-window/

And add another in the bucket of, "These people are too stupid to be a serious threat."

We already had the guy who wore his company badge, with his name, picture, and company name on it.

We also have a guy who wore his work jacket to the riot, which has the name and phone number of his employer.

Seriously, these chucklefucks should have spent less time yelling about wanting to find and fight antifa and more time paying attention to how antifa operates. I can't remember the last time one of those idiots did something this deeply stupid.

[DarkTZeratul]

That's not true at all. Read the full list. They cannot actually interact with protesters, cannot seek assistance from any of the other government personnel who were there, and couldn't actually do any law enforcement whatsoever.

They were ordered to be traffic control.

They were completely hamstrung, and you know it. So, feel free to keep being ridiculous in the name of fascists, I expect nothing less from you.

I'm still taking Thekri's explanation as being accurate (he's generally right about this sort of stuff), which is essentially that this IS standard... But also that the BLM stuff was decidedly beyond standard:

The national guard is not supposed to have such authority. The use of the US military against US citizens is a VERY big deal, and the military was extremely upset about their forced involvement in 2020. Everything on that list is barred by default from use against US citizens, although I disagree with holding the release authority at the DoD level, it does need to be held at some level.

The two main issues here are:
1) We did see the employment of several of these things the next day, which means that either Miller did release his hold, or else this order was ignored.
2) We did see the use of these things in the Capital last year, where it prompted considerable negative attention.

To me the most troubling aspect to compare this crisis with the previous federal response to BLM protests wasn't the use of the Guard (Which was severely, and appropriately, limited), it was the presence of all those unnamed federal assets in response to the BLM protests. We saw the deployment of uniformed personnel with no identification, we saw the employment of ISR assets with no public awareness of where the information was going, or who could see it. We saw people being arrested or struck by people who had no legally declared authority to do so (Since we don't know who they were). I absolutely want to see all that investigated. But the use of the Guard in both scenarios seems mostly ok.

[Machismo]

I'm still taking Thekri's explanation as being accurate (he's generally right about this sort of stuff), which is essentially that this IS standard... But also that the BLM stuff was decidedly beyond standard:

Some of the things are standard, but not others. The dude is an officer, and knows his stuff. But, not being able to interact with law enforcement, including asking for assistance, that's not normal. The other issue was the refusal to allow body armor and helmets.

I absolutely get not arming them with firearms, that is very common. But, the way it's worded means that they cannot do much of anything. By the wording, they cannot even detain a violent protestor, and hold them for arrest by actual law enforcement.

And let's not forget, the Guard wasn't even used. They wanted to be, and DC, Maryland, and Virginia were trying to use them... but were denied, even under those limited orders.

[D Luniz]

Picture seems to show unarmed MPs in normal military body armor, not riot gear (beyond CBR masks in pouches).

Not pictured was the use of tear gas, the low flying helicopter, the ATVs. But the guys in the picture got helmets and vests. Things denied for the Jan 5th-6th attempted coup.

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Which would have minimal effect on their ability to provide security. Neither group had any offensive means. Guys in nothing but shorts and sandals but armed with night sticks would have been a massive upgrade to either force. Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.

Tell that to all the officers with TBI

[DarkTZeratul]

Some of the things are standard, but not others. The dude is an officer, and knows his stuff. But, not being able to interact with law enforcement, including asking for assistance, that's not normal. The other issue was the refusal to allow body armor and helmets.

I absolutely get not arming them with firearms, that is very common. But, the way it's worded means that they cannot do much of anything. By the wording, they cannot even detain a violent protestor, and hold them for arrest by actual law enforcement.

And let's not forget, the Guard wasn't even used. They wanted to be, and DC, Maryland, and Virginia were trying to use them... but were denied, even under those limited orders.

Oh, there were absolutely problems with how the NG was (and especially was not) utilized, I'm just not sure this letter in and of itself is the smoking gun some people seem to think it is.

[Machismo]

Oh, there were absolutely problems with how the NG was (and especially was not) utilized, I'm just not sure this letter in and of itself is the smoking gun some people seem to think it is.

The smoking gun was the refusal to allow for them to be deployed in the first place.

This just shows the absolute hamstringing of their usage. It turned them into traffic control, that's it.

[Felya]

Just a reminder... Trump had unmarked vans snatching people off the street, during BLM protests.

[Kellhound]

That's not true at all. Read the full list. They cannot actually interact with protesters, cannot seek assistance from any of the other government personnel who were there, and couldn't actually do any law enforcement whatsoever.

They were ordered to be traffic control.

They were completely hamstrung, and you know it. So, feel free to keep being ridiculous in the name of fascists, I expect nothing less from you.

Not having offensive weapons and full riot gear is a massive constraint on effectiveness no matter how you look at it, and my comment was strictly based on equipment not orders. But I don't expect you to notice such things.

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Not pictured was the use of tear gas, the low flying helicopter, the ATVs. But the guys in the picture got helmets and vests. Things denied for the Jan 5th-6th attempted coup.

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Tell that to all the officers with TBI

Don't get me wrong, I believe all rioters should be dealt with via extreme force.

[Machismo]

Not having offensive weapons and full riot gear is a massive constraint on effectiveness no matter how you look at it, and my comment was strictly based on equipment not orders. But I don't expect you to notice such things.

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Don't get me wrong, I believe all rioters should be dealt with via extreme force.

It shows they were objectively more restricted than before... which is the point.

Or, did you not notice that?

[Kellhound]

It shows they were objectively more restricted than before... which is the point.

Or, did you not notice that?

I noticed that I pointed out equipment and what it means to their effectiveness.

There is also the question of the legality of using NG troops as law enforcement in DC under the current command structure (they are under the control of the military when mobilized for any reason).